On Andorians in Starfleet post-2383 [SPOILERS for RAISE THE DAWN]

[Avon]

sorry, this just all sounds like a really dumb plot and use of andorians

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Is it confirmed that th'Shant was acting on orders from the actual government of Andor, rather than a few Andorians acting alone? Because that would suck if it was the case.

 

[nightwind1]

If a nutcase* is all it takes to generate the trekverse equivalent of Pearl Harbour, Hiroshima or 9/11 - as was proven in the book -, then one nutcase is one too many. And the chance of enough of the andorian personnel from acting as 'nutcases' was confirmed as being high.
In these cirtcumstances, getting rid of all the andorian personnel from starfleet is a small price to pay to prevent such events from happening - again.
Racism? Not even close - as per the definition of the word. More like practicality and fulfilling starfleet's mission to protect the federation and its people.

*The andorian bomber was not 'one', acting alone; nor was he depicted as a nutcase in the least, merely regarding directives from his homeworld as superseding starfleet's.

Leaving aside my personal feelings about this storyline... you think that if a species government is hostile, then penalising every member of that race serving in your exploratory & defence force is just?

It's not about being 'just' or managing one's feelings.
It's about the fact starfleet can't trust the andorian personnel not to blow up the odd station or ships, committing various other acts of espionage, sabotage, terrorism, etc. And about the fact its security checks are demonstrated as useless.

Starfleet's primary mission is to protect the federation, not make sure it doesn't hurt someone's feelings regardless of catastrophic outcomes.


Therin of Andor
Go easier with the straw-men.

Compare to the US after 9/11. When the US Armed Services expelled every single Muslim officer and non-com...

Oh, wait. They didn't do that.

 

[Edit_XYZ]

nightwind1
As said:

"For your comparison to have any validity, a decisive majority of muslims must be of the fundamentalist jihad kind, close to the kind responsible for 9/11. This is not the case.

You see, a decisive majority of andorians chose to cut their ties to the federation, will choose to join the typhon pact.

This is what makes this comparison of yours a straw-man, BTW."

 

[Sjaddix]

Here is the critical difference. Planets (or in some cases groups of planets) sign up to join the Federation. Individuals join the USA, not countries. A better example would be someone deciding to Leave Nato and Then signing a defense pact with lets say China.

 

[Thestral]

This time, in the trekverse, not so (not even close) - see my post you quoted regarding the reasons for the decision.
And regarding the decision - there's a BIG difference between firing employees and ethnic cleansing/other atrocities motivated by racism with 'for protection' propaganda.

The reasons you suggest are no more un-paranoid than the US government's logic towards Japanese citizens during WW2.

We know he acted on orders from Andor.

The planet, not the government. See below.

As for his depiction as mentally unstable:
The only basis you have for this very convenient classification is: he came to the conclusion that the federation is not his ally, but his enemy - based on less than convincing arguments.

Well, Kestrel, you can say the same thing about the majority of andorians these days. I doubt you want to classify them as nutcases, though - it's not very convenient for the argument you try to shoehorn in.

He came to the conclusion that Starfleet is inherently racist because he was part of a security check along with two other non-Andorians - and then proceeded to take part in a plot that killed 1000 people. Which, let's note, the majority of Andorians do not.

Switch "starfleet" for "America" and "andorian" for "Muslim" and you sound like a paranoid right winger wanting to kick all the dirty A-Rabs out of the military. In other words, a racist.

You look quite the paranoid, ignorant right winger yourself, Kestrel:

For your rant to have any validity, a decisive majority of muslims must be of the fundamentalist jihad kind, close to the kind responsible for 9/11.
Despite what you seem to think, this is not the case.

As you well know, a decisive majority of andorians chose to cut their ties to the federation, will choose to join the typhon pact.

I'm not sure whether I should mock you or feel insulted that you think I believe that about Muslims. What special brand of "logic" is this? "Cutting their ties to the Federation" /= willing to blow up Federation Starbases with thousands of people on board. I need evidence that a "decisive majority" of Andorians are willing to go along with a plot to kill thousands even if they do feel that the Federation looks down on them. Just like I'd need evidence that a "decisive majority" of Muslims (which there's not) are willing to go along with a plot to kill thousands even if they do feel Americans look down on them.

Is it confirmed that th'Shant was acting on orders from the actual government of Andor, rather than a few Andorians acting alone? Because that would suck if it was the case.

No, there's no confirmation of this. On p. 380 of Raise the Dawn th'Shant says "So when a friend on Andor contacted me about the Typhon Pact needing help to restore the balance of power with the Federation, I listened..." (bolding mine). And in Plagues of Night we have a scene where Morad (remember: a Cardassian who's part of a group looking to overthrow the Cardassian government) meets with an Andorian who mentions the bombs on DS9 and says "The movement thanks Sela," bolding mine again. I'd say the argument is stronger that it's a terrorist group; considering the fact that the Cardassians and the Romulans have revanchist groups looking to seize power, I see no reason to think the same isn't true of the Andorians.

Compare to the US after 9/11. When the US Armed Services expelled every single Muslim officer and non-com...

Oh, wait. They didn't do that.

post 9/11 US Armed Forces less reactionary than 24th century Federation Starfleet? Hell, for that matter weren't there loyal Japanese American soldiers fighting throughout WW2?

 

[Therin of Andor]

Hell, for that matter weren't there loyal Japanese American soldiers fighting throughout WW2?

Didn't help George Takei and his family much.

 

[Snaploud]

This thread assumes that all Andorian officers are being removed from Starfleet. Technically, the blurb only indicates an argument over one ship's Andorian officers:

Meanwhile, Riker finds himself on a collision course with the Federation Council and the Andorian government, both of which intend to deprive Titan of its Andorian crewmembers.

We don't know the specifics yet.

 

[RPJOB]

Is it confirmed that th'Shant was acting on orders from the actual government of Andor, rather than a few Andorians acting alone? Because that would suck if it was the case.

For all we know it was actually done by a pro-Federation faction, perhaps even with help from people within the Federation or even Starfleet in hopes of turning the Andorians in the mushy middle back towards the Federation. If word gets out that the bomb was planeted on behalf of the Typhon Pact there might be a sizeable percentage of Andorians who would turn on them and back to the Feds. "Not in our name!".

 

[Stoek]

It seems to me that it might be more logical to wait until the book is actually out so that this discussion could be informed by what has actually happened rather than by what we think might happen.

 

[rfmcdpei]

It seems to me that it might be more logical to wait until the book is actually out so that this discussion could be informed by what has actually happened rather than by what we think might happen.

True. To me, th'Shant's behaviour in George's duology provided a possible plausible explanation for a perplexing element of Hidden Gods's plot. We'll see.

 

[Mike Winters]

It seems to me that it might be more logical to wait until the book is actually out so that this discussion could be informed by what has actually happened rather than by what we think might happen.

Since when does logic ever play a part on this board?

 

[Sci]

I would simply like note that, pursuit to an early debate/discussion, Typhon Pact: Raise the Dawn has finally given us a ballpark figure for how many Andorians left Starfleet.

Page 351: "Since Andor's withdrawal from the UFP, Starfleet had lost more a third of its Andorian officers to resignation."

So, more than a third, but less than two-thirds, and presumably less than one-half.

 

[Sci]

Titan: Fallen Gods has now given us more information. In early November 2382, we know now that the Andorian government passed a law requiring reproductive-age Andorians to return to the homeworld; obviously, this law could not be enforced outside Andorian space. The Andorian government demanded that the Federation hand over Andorian Federates who refused to return to Andor, and the Federation refused.

We also know that Starfleet Command, in that month, issued transfer orders to Andorian Starfleet officers serving in sensitive posts to new, less-sensitive assignments. We know from a scene between Fleet Admiral Akaar and the CO of Starbase 183 that this order was issued for an as-yet unspecified reason.

We also know that in November, at least one Andorian starship, the I.G.W. Shantherin th'Clane, played host to a number of Tholians who had developed a technology capable of controlling the minds of Andorians, who proved uniquely susceptible to the influence of a new piece of Tholian technology.

And there is no evidence that Andor has joined the Typhon Pact.

All this occurred within one month of Andor's secession; the events of Plagues of Night/Raise the Dawn occurred months later. So we can infer by then that Starfleet's reassignment order was rescinded at some point between these novels. There remains no indication of Andor joining the Pact by August-September 2383, when Plagues/Raise took place.

 

[rfmcdpei]

We also know that in November, at least one Andorian starship, the I.G.W. Shantherin th'Clane, played host to a number of Tholians who had developed a technology capable of controlling the minds of Andorians, who proved uniquely susceptible to the influence of a new piece of Tholian technology.

And there is no evidence that Andor has joined the Typhon Pact.

No formal membership in the Typhon Pact, granted, but there does seem to be a very close bilateral Andorian-Tholian relationship. I'd assumed that this was the sort of thing that Akaar was worried about.

All this occurred within one month of Andor's secession; the events of Plagues of Night/Raise the Dawn occurred months later. So we can infer by then that Starfleet's reassignment order was rescinded at some point between these novels. There remains no indication of Andor joining the Pact by August-September 2383, when Plagues/Raise took place.

In the aftermath of the duology's events, an Andorian Starfleet officer's volunteering to place bombs on a critical Starfleet outpost looks much more problematic if the Andorian Empire is a close Tholian ally.

 

[Sci]

We also know that in November, at least one Andorian starship, the I.G.W. Shantherin th'Clane, played host to a number of Tholians who had developed a technology capable of controlling the minds of Andorians, who proved uniquely susceptible to the influence of a new piece of Tholian technology.

And there is no evidence that Andor has joined the Typhon Pact.

No formal membership in the Typhon Pact, granted, but there does seem to be a very close bilateral Andorian-Tholian relationship. I'd assumed that this was the sort of thing that Akaar was worried about.

All this occurred within one month of Andor's secession; the events of Plagues of Night/Raise the Dawn occurred months later. So we can infer by then that Starfleet's reassignment order was rescinded at some point between these novels. There remains no indication of Andor joining the Pact by August-September 2383, when Plagues/Raise took place.

In the aftermath of the duology's events, an Andorian Starfleet officer's volunteering to place bombs on a critical Starfleet outpost looks much more problematic if the Andorian Empire is a close Tholian ally.

I'm not yet willing to conclude that Andor is a Tholian ally yet. The I.G.W. Therin is a long way from home, and her crew seems both very alienated from their C.O. and very perplexed by his actions. And we not once heard anything said to be from the Andorian government that wasn't filtered through Commander Zhrar. The possibility yet remains that he is either a rogue captain, or that he himself is the victim of Tholian mind control.

(Mind you, I'm not saying they aren't close Tholian allies, either. I'm saying I'm not willing to make a conclusion either way.)

 

[Christopher]

^Right. Every nation has its dissidents, and we know from Paths of Disharmony that the people of Andor are split into numerous factions. So until it's made explicit, we can't know whether the Andorians working with the Tholians represent the current ruling faction or a fringe group.

 

[rfmcdpei]

^Right. Every nation has its dissidents, and we know from Paths of Disharmony that the people of Andor are split into numerous factions. So until it's made explicit, we can't know whether the Andorians working with the Tholians represent the current ruling faction or a fringe group.

The evidence would seem to suggest that, between the skeptical government at home and the reluctant crew, Zhrar's embrace of a Tholian alliance is problematic.

At the very least, though, even if Zhrar's alliance with the Tholian is one that he struck with the Tholians and isn't a reflection of Andorian official policy, this still has major implications for the Andorians. It's the same sort of problem for the Andorian government that Sela's support of attacks against the Federation caused for the Romulan government: if Zhrar's actions are authorized by the legitimate governing bodies of his polity, either at the time or retroactively, they indicate that Andoria has gone strongly anti-Federation; if Zhrar's actions are unauthorized or even contrary to official policy, the Andorian government is weak enough that it cannot prevent its military leaders from striking their own deals with other powers.

In either cluster of scenarios, something is going wrong with Andoria. It could be as dire as the Andorian government throwing itself in with the Typhon Pact and adopting policies which contravene the civil rights of its citizens. Even the best-case scenario of Andoria losing control over its military forces is not very hopeful.

 

[Wally]

It's a bad situation, and I think as of Fallen Gods Starfleet has reacted appropriately. Despite the analogy explicitly spelled out in the book, this is not analogous to the Japanese Internment camps of WW2. This is a founding member of the Federation that seceded from the Federation partly under the influence of a hostile force that there now is known that it's citizens are suspectible to mind control by that same force.

So, the analogy should be: In Cold War America, Russia partly influences Virginia to secede from the Union. Now it is also revealed that there is something different about Virginians. They are uniquely susceptible to being mind controlled by the Russians. Instead of either declaring war on Virginia, or expelling it's citizens to internment camps. The United States only re-assigns Virginians working in sensitive posts in the military/government to less sensitive posts.

If anything, the Federation may be under reacting to this threat.

 

[Sci]

^Right. Every nation has its dissidents, and we know from Paths of Disharmony that the people of Andor are split into numerous factions. So until it's made explicit, we can't know whether the Andorians working with the Tholians represent the current ruling faction or a fringe group.

The evidence would seem to suggest that, between the skeptical government at home and the reluctant crew, Zhrar's embrace of a Tholian alliance is problematic.

At the very least, though, even if Zhrar's alliance with the Tholian is one that he struck with the Tholians and isn't a reflection of Andorian official policy, this still has major implications for the Andorians. It's the same sort of problem for the Andorian government that Sela's support of attacks against the Federation caused for the Romulan government: if Zhrar's actions are authorized by the legitimate governing bodies of his polity, either at the time or retroactively, they indicate that Andoria has gone strongly anti-Federation; if Zhrar's actions are unauthorized or even contrary to official policy, the Andorian government is weak enough that it cannot prevent its military leaders from striking their own deals with other powers.

While that is a possibility -- a weak Andorian government unable to control factions of of its own military -- I think you're overstating your case. Another possibility is that Zhrar is just the equivalent of all those rogue captains and admirals we've seen in Starfleet. I think we should wait for more evidence before we jump to conclusions.

It's a bad situation, and I think as of Fallen Gods Starfleet has reacted appropriately. Despite the analogy explicitly spelled out in the book, this is not analogous to the Japanese Internment camps of WW2. This is a founding member of the Federation that seceded from the Federation partly under the influence of a hostile force that there now is known that it's citizens are suspectible to mind control by that same force.

Except we don't know that Andor's secession was due to Tholian mind control; this is an assumption that is not yet backed up by any evidence.