On Andorians in Starfleet post-2383 [SPOILERS for RAISE THE DAWN]

[Wally]

Except we don't know that Andor's secession was due to Tholian mind control; this is an assumption that is not yet backed up by any evidence.

I apologize. By the Tholians influencing the Andorians to secede I only meant about them providing information and revealing that the Federation had withheld information as established in Paths of Disharmony.

The point is. The secession of a core world has occurred, and the Tholians were an instigator in this matter. Now it is revealed that they can use mind control (possibly over great distances) over those peoples. This is a huge threat.

 

[rfmcdpei]

^Right. Every nation has its dissidents, and we know from Paths of Disharmony that the people of Andor are split into numerous factions. So until it's made explicit, we can't know whether the Andorians working with the Tholians represent the current ruling faction or a fringe group.

The evidence would seem to suggest that, between the skeptical government at home and the reluctant crew, Zhrar's embrace of a Tholian alliance is problematic.

At the very least, though, even if Zhrar's alliance with the Tholian is one that he struck with the Tholians and isn't a reflection of Andorian official policy, this still has major implications for the Andorians. It's the same sort of problem for the Andorian government that Sela's support of attacks against the Federation caused for the Romulan government: if Zhrar's actions are authorized by the legitimate governing bodies of his polity, either at the time or retroactively, they indicate that Andoria has gone strongly anti-Federation; if Zhrar's actions are unauthorized or even contrary to official policy, the Andorian government is weak enough that it cannot prevent its military leaders from striking their own deals with other powers.

While that is a possibility -- a weak Andorian government unable to control factions of of its own military -- I think you're overstating your case. Another possibility is that Zhrar is just the equivalent of all those rogue captains and admirals we've seen in Starfleet. I think we should wait for more evidence before we jump to conclusions.

The extent of the collaboration would seem to argue against something casual. Leaving aside the Andorian mind-control issue, the success alone of the transport-duplication technology would seem to require a much bigger effort than one rogue captain and his reluctant crew could come up with on their own. I'd further argue that the willingness of the crew of the Therin to follow Zhrar's orders suggests that they think that, however questionable the orders might be in their own minds, they should follow them--Zhrar's orders are seen as legitimate.

Zhrar and the Therin are not operating on their own. Whether they're the single ship the Tholians are collaborating with, whether they represent a faction within the Andorian military allying with the Tholians, or whether--worst-case--they are enacting public policy defined by the new anti-Federation Andorian government, they're not simple rogues. If they represent a faction in Andorian affairs larger than a single rogue ship, then a serious breakdown can be expected.

(Yes, there are plenty of rogue captains. I don't know of many rogue captains in Starfleet depicted as themselves agents of those powers.)

It's a bad situation, and I think as of Fallen Gods Starfleet has reacted appropriately. Despite the analogy explicitly spelled out in the book, this is not analogous to the Japanese Internment camps of WW2. This is a founding member of the Federation that seceded from the Federation partly under the influence of a hostile force that there now is known that it's citizens are suspectible to mind control by that same force.

Except we don't know that Andor's secession was due to Tholian mind control; this is an assumption that is not yet backed up by any evidence.[/QUOTE]

Paths of Disharmony's explanation of Andorian secession as the product of Andorian outrage that the Shedai technological database was hidden, even though the knowledge proved potentially very useful in solving the Andorian species' reproductive issues. I suppose that, if you really wanted to, you could have had some key Andorian leaders mind-controlled, but there's no need to.

I'd seen the mind-control technology presented by Zhrar as being something relevant to Zhrar's interest in getting one of the Pavas to be an Andorian intelligence agent.

 

[Sci]

The evidence would seem to suggest that, between the skeptical government at home and the reluctant crew, Zhrar's embrace of a Tholian alliance is problematic.

At the very least, though, even if Zhrar's alliance with the Tholian is one that he struck with the Tholians and isn't a reflection of Andorian official policy, this still has major implications for the Andorians. It's the same sort of problem for the Andorian government that Sela's support of attacks against the Federation caused for the Romulan government: if Zhrar's actions are authorized by the legitimate governing bodies of his polity, either at the time or retroactively, they indicate that Andoria has gone strongly anti-Federation; if Zhrar's actions are unauthorized or even contrary to official policy, the Andorian government is weak enough that it cannot prevent its military leaders from striking their own deals with other powers.

While that is a possibility -- a weak Andorian government unable to control factions of of its own military -- I think you're overstating your case. Another possibility is that Zhrar is just the equivalent of all those rogue captains and admirals we've seen in Starfleet. I think we should wait for more evidence before we jump to conclusions.

The extent of the collaboration would seem to argue against something casual. Leaving aside the Andorian mind-control issue, the success alone of the transport-duplication technology would seem to require a much bigger effort than one rogue captain and his reluctant crew could come up with on their own.

Fair point -- but was that much bigger effort on the part of the Andorians? Or was that bigger effort on the part of the Tholians, who then presented it to Commander Zhrar?

Mind you, I'm not saying this is necessarily the case, either. I just don't think we know enough about the situation to come to any conclusions.

 

[rfmcdpei]

The extent of the collaboration would seem to argue against something casual. Leaving aside the Andorian mind-control issue, the success alone of the transport-duplication technology would seem to require a much bigger effort than one rogue captain and his reluctant crew could come up with on their own.

Fair point -- but was that much bigger effort on the part of the Andorians? Or was that bigger effort on the part of the Tholians, who then presented it to Commander Zhrar?

I'd be inclined to thank that the former would be more likely, mainly because the Andorians have been very private about their medical assumptions elsewhere. For the Tholians, of all civilizations, to have enough detailed information about the working of the Andorian mind as to create a reliable mind-control technology has the implication--to me--that someone gave them this information. Whether or not the "someone" was a faction of the Andorians, small or large, or the Andorian government, remains open.

Mind you, I'm not saying this is necessarily the case, either. I just don't think we know enough about the situation to come to any conclusions.

True. I will say, though, that Fallen Gods presents a more problematic scenario than I'd suggested in my initial post.

There, I suggested that the single example of Deep Space 9's Ensign th'Shant, who despite passing a security check decided to plant bombs on the station's reactor core which destroyed the station and killed a thousand people at the behest of the Typhon Pact, might make Starfleet consider shuffling its Andorian crewmembers out of the service. Here, long before th'Shant's treason, it turns out not only that there's an undetermined degree of close cooperation between Andor and the Tholians, but that there's an active effort by this faction to recruit Andorians as espionage agents and that the species is susceptible to mind control efforts (does the Pava who makes it back to Titan know about these last? I forget).

I would not want to be an Andorian in Starfleet.

 

[DEWLine]

And considering what we know of what happened to the Tholians as a whole over the course of Vanguard...I wonder how the Castemoot(?) feels about this.

 

[rfmcdpei]

While that is a possibility -- a weak Andorian government unable to control factions of of its own military -- I think you're overstating your case. Another possibility is that Zhrar is just the equivalent of all those rogue captains and admirals we've seen in Starfleet. I think we should wait for more evidence before we jump to conclusions.

The extent of the collaboration would seem to argue against something casual. Leaving aside the Andorian mind-control issue, the success alone of the transport-duplication technology would seem to require a much bigger effort than one rogue captain and his reluctant crew could come up with on their own.

Fair point -- but was that much bigger effort on the part of the Andorians? Or was that bigger effort on the part of the Tholians, who then presented it to Commander Zhrar?

Mind you, I'm not saying this is necessarily the case, either. I just don't think we know enough about the situation to come to any conclusions.

Point. All we can do is speculate.

I'm strongly inclined to believe in the willing collaboration of a sizable number of Andorians with the Tholians.

(The success of the Andorians in keeping sensitive data about the biology of their species private for centuries leads me to suspect that Andorians provided the Tholians with the information necessary to make the mind-control work, maybe even the transporter duplication.)

The scale of the collaboration seems the only thing open to question: is it a faction of the Andorian Empire, or is this official policy of the Andorian Empire?