Old Spock and new Spock. Is it an alternate universe?

[M'Sharak]

I can only surmise that some fans are on a certain level emotionally attached to these last appearances of Leonard Nimoy as Spock, and that it somehow lessens the value of his appearance if he is just one Spock among billions of possible, alternate Spocks. He needs to be THE Spock...our Spock. You know, the one who sang "bitter dregs", whose brain was stolen, who died saving the ship and was regenerated by the Genesis wave and nerve pinched that punk music guy on the bus.

And suggesting otherwise somehow hollows out the elder, august Spock that stands face to face with Quinto Spock. I just see lots of awesome possibilities. Intriguing variations. But I now see that for some fans, it's almost like a slap in the face to say elder Spock is only Spock from Quantum Reality No. 37592738.

It's not a slap in the face. There's simply no in-story reason for elder Spock to be any other Spock than the one we saw in TOS, in the TOS movie series, and later on in TNG as Ambassador to Romulus. Yeah, I get "awesome possibilities," but lacking any in-story narrative explaining why he shouldn't be the familiar Spock, it makes no sense to assume he's anyone else.

 

[Tarek71]

I can only surmise that some fans are on a certain level emotionally attached to these last appearances of Leonard Nimoy as Spock, and that it somehow lessens the value of his appearance if he is just one Spock among billions of possible, alternate Spocks. He needs to be THE Spock...our Spock. You know, the one who sang "bitter dregs", whose brain was stolen, who died saving the ship and was regenerated by the Genesis wave and nerve pinched that punk music guy on the bus.

And suggesting otherwise somehow hollows out the elder, august Spock that stands face to face with Quinto Spock. I just see lots of awesome possibilities. Intriguing variations. But I now see that for some fans, it's almost like a slap in the face to say elder Spock is only Spock from Quantum Reality No. 37592738.

It's not a slap in the face. There's simply no in-story reason for elder Spock to be any other Spock than the one we saw in TOS, in the TOS movie series, and later on in TNG as Ambassador to Romulus. Yeah, I get "awesome possibilities," but lacking any in-story narrative explaining why he shouldn't be the familiar Spock, it makes no sense to assume he's anyone else.

Well, in-universe, onscreen there is no basis for concluding he is that same Spock. He could be any Spock from a billion, billion quantum realities. I don't make any assumption about which elder Spock this is. We simply have no way of knowing definitively one way or another.

 

[M'Sharak]

I can only surmise that some fans are on a certain level emotionally attached to these last appearances of Leonard Nimoy as Spock, and that it somehow lessens the value of his appearance if he is just one Spock among billions of possible, alternate Spocks. He needs to be THE Spock...our Spock. You know, the one who sang "bitter dregs", whose brain was stolen, who died saving the ship and was regenerated by the Genesis wave and nerve pinched that punk music guy on the bus.

And suggesting otherwise somehow hollows out the elder, august Spock that stands face to face with Quinto Spock. I just see lots of awesome possibilities. Intriguing variations. But I now see that for some fans, it's almost like a slap in the face to say elder Spock is only Spock from Quantum Reality No. 37592738.

It's not a slap in the face. There's simply no in-story reason for elder Spock to be any other Spock than the one we saw in TOS, in the TOS movie series, and later on in TNG as Ambassador to Romulus. Yeah, I get "awesome possibilities," but lacking any in-story narrative explaining why he shouldn't be the familiar Spock, it makes no sense to assume he's anyone else.

Well, in-universe, onscreen there is no basis for concluding he is that same Spock. He could be any Spock from a billion, billion quantum realities.

He could be, yes, but neither are we given any in-universe, onscreen indication that he's any of those other possible Spocks. Thus, absent any evidence to the contrary, the simplest answer is to conclude that he's the one we already know.

You're of course welcome to entertain as many other possibilities as you like, but it doesn't seem that many other folks are interested in buying tickets for that ride.

 

[Trekkin]

I can only surmise that some fans are on a certain level emotionally attached to these last appearances of Leonard Nimoy as Spock, and that it somehow lessens the value of his appearance if he is just one Spock among billions of possible, alternate Spocks. He needs to be THE Spock...our Spock. You know, the one who sang "bitter dregs", whose brain was stolen, who died saving the ship and was regenerated by the Genesis wave and nerve pinched that punk music guy on the bus.

And suggesting otherwise somehow hollows out the elder, august Spock that stands face to face with Quinto Spock. I just see lots of awesome possibilities. Intriguing variations. But I now see that for some fans, it's almost like a slap in the face to say elder Spock is only Spock from Quantum Reality No. 37592738.

It's not a slap in the face. There's simply no in-story reason for elder Spock to be any other Spock than the one we saw in TOS, in the TOS movie series, and later on in TNG as Ambassador to Romulus. Yeah, I get "awesome possibilities," but lacking any in-story narrative explaining why he shouldn't be the familiar Spock, it makes no sense to assume he's anyone else.

Well, in-universe, onscreen there is no basis for concluding he is that same Spock. He could be any Spock from a billion, billion quantum realities. I don't make any assumption about which elder Spock this is. We simply have no way of knowing definitively one way or another.

Have we reached a point where we're just paraphrasing previous posts? Because I'm sure you've said that before,

Breaking news - succeeding creators can retcon the previous creators product. Sometimes in-story vagueness gives them an excuse to tell fans on message boards 'don't yell at us'. More news at 10.

 

[M'Sharak]

Have we reached a point where we're just paraphrasing previous posts?

Oh, I think we've been there for quite some time already.

 

[Trekkin]

Ah, we've reached the 'signs of madness' stage. Nice to know it's not just me.

 

[Tarek71]

It's not a slap in the face. There's simply no in-story reason for elder Spock to be any other Spock than the one we saw in TOS, in the TOS movie series, and later on in TNG as Ambassador to Romulus. Yeah, I get "awesome possibilities," but lacking any in-story narrative explaining why he shouldn't be the familiar Spock, it makes no sense to assume he's anyone else.

Well, in-universe, onscreen there is no basis for concluding he is that same Spock. He could be any Spock from a billion, billion quantum realities.

He could be, yes, but neither are we given any in-universe, onscreen indication that he's any of those other possible Spocks. Thus, absent any evidence to the contrary, the simplest answer is to conclude that he's the one we already know.

You're of course welcome to entertain as many other possibilities as you like, but it doesn't seem that many other folks are interested in buying tickets for that ride.

No the simplest answer is to say we do not know, aND leave it there. There are an endless number of possibilities, and the very existence of ST 09 and ST ID is a testament to JJ & co seeing those possibilities.

And may I again say, that it is JJ, Bob-O, etc are the ones saying all this. Endless quantum realities, time travel creates new quantum, alternate timelines, including all the previous time travel episodes and films of Trek, etc.

Notice that the people saying that "we should go by what JJ, Orci say", aren't always as enthusiastic about their view that dozens of parallel, alternate timelines were created from the time of TOS to ENT.

 

[Tarek71]

Have we reached a point where we're just paraphrasing previous posts?

Oh, I think we've been there for quite some time already.

Could be.

 

[Jerikka Dawn]

No, absolutely nothing in the movie definitively establishes what universe/timeline/quantum reality elder Spock comes from.

Except for his character's name. The credits to a movie show the name of an actor and the in universe name of the character he or she plays.

(preemptive response): It does not matter if no one in the movie called him "Spock Prime." The credits at the end of the movie unambiguously identify the character as "Spock Prime." There is absolutely only one thing that this means and that is that the character is from the "prime" timeline.

Because of how easily it's argued. It's JJ, Bob Orci, etc who decided to not only accept TNG "Parallels" and the existence of an infinite number of quantum realities/timelines/universes, but introduce the idea that all time travel does is create other, new parallel, quantum realities. Does that mean that each of the dozens of time travel events in TOS-TNG-DS9-VOY-ENT-Movies created a new parallel, alternate quantum reality? Yes. That's not my pain in the ass self saying that, that's what they are saying.

That's exactly what Data explained in Parallels.

So, in the vicinity of Klingon space, on Stardate 2233.04, a billion different things could have happened. We know for a fact that one of those billions of different possibilities, no matter how extremely unlikely, was the arrival of the Narada from 2387. That happened in one quantum reality. It didn't happen in another.

In other words, yes, based on the established, canon, in-universe science of Star Trek (science as articulated by an in-universe character who is qualified to speak of such things), every single solitary arrival of someone from the future created an alternate timeline at the point they arrived. Kirk, Spock, and McCoy arrived back from the Guardian of Forever in an ever so slightly different quantum reality -- one that branched off when a drugged up future country doctor arrived and his weird friends came back to retrieve him.

On April 4th, 2063, an alternate timeline branched off at the point that Borg arrived, leading to the alternate reality where the Borg had assimilated Earth, as viewed from the Enterprise as they were protected by the time vortex. Yet another alternate timeline branched off when the Enterprise arrived in 2063 and destroyed the sphere. All of the subsequent events in the movie led to the Enterprise returning to Stardate 50893.5 in an ever so slightly different reality from the one they started in.

(preemptive response): I did not just say that Data said any of that. I said it was based on the science that he articulated.

LOL! So which Spock is this elder Spock? What "quantum reality' is he from? What alternate/parallel universe? We have no way of knowing. The onscreen evidence is not conclusive one way or another.

The credits of every movie identify the out of universe actor and the in-universe on screen character they portray. Leonard Nimoy played the one listed as "Spock Prime". Prime means exactly one thing in this context.

 

[Tarek71]

The credits are not in-universe. They are from a production POV. But as I have said on multiple occasions, there is no doubt that JJ & Co intend elder Spock to be the Spock we saw in TOS. Not in dispute.

But if you're in the year 2233 of a certain quantum reality and instead of the Narada, the Enterprise D pops through the aperture, which of the millions of possible Ent-Ds is this? "Ahh, it's the one from Universe 294730!"

How do you know that? Maybe it's the one from Quantum Reality 294731, or QR 347908. Hard to tell. All those zillions of End Ds looked awfully similar. Could be anyone of an infinite number of possible Ent-D's.

 

[Campe]

I'm just going to say this: The majority believe you're wrong. We've expressed our reasons. You've expressed yours. There is nothing new to be said here.

We should just agree to disagree and call it a day.

 

[Tarek71]

I'm just going to say this: The majority believe you're wrong. We've expressed our reasons. You've expressed yours. There is nothing new to be said here.

We should just agree to disagree and call it a day.

Well FKnight decided to have a crack at it. Am I allowed to respond? Different people keep weighing in, and I am responding to them.

 

[Jerikka Dawn]

The credits are not in-universe. They are from a production POV. But as I have said on multiple occasions, there is no doubt that JJ & Co intend elder Spock to be the Spock we saw in TOS. Not in dispute.

Your argument that we don't know where the elder Spock came from necessarily disputes the validity of the credits. And you're also intentionally ignoring the fact that the credits identify the in-universe characters. That's pretty much "first principles" kind of stuff and you can't really have this argument without accepting that fact. So, I'll bow out now.

(personally owned hosting)

 

[Campe]

I'm just going to say this: The majority believe you're wrong. We've expressed our reasons. You've expressed yours. There is nothing new to be said here.

We should just agree to disagree and call it a day.

Well FKnight decided to have a crack at it. Am I allowed to respond? Different people keep weighing in, and I am responding to them.

Do whatever you want.

 

[Tarek71]

The credits are not in-universe. They are from a production POV. But as I have said on multiple occasions, there is no doubt that JJ & Co intend elder Spock to be the Spock we saw in TOS. Not in dispute.

Your argument that we don't know where the elder Spock came from necessarily disputes the validity of the credits. And you're also intentionally ignoring the fact that the credits identify the in-universe characters.

No, the credits are not in-universe, or in any way part of the story. In-universe, that's Captain Kirk, not Chris Pine, and this is the 23rd century on an actual starship, it's not a movie. That is what is "first principles" stuff.

 

[Mudd]

In fact quite a bit in the movie definitively establishes what universe elder Spock comes from - the facts have been pointed out repeatedly, and ignoring them doesn't make them go away.

 

[Dukhat]

^Although that means nothing to people who just argue for the sake of arguing

 

[Mudd]

Indeed.

 

[Tarek71]

In fact quite a bit in the movie definitively establishes what universe elder Spock comes from - the facts have been pointed out repeatedly, and ignoring them doesn't make them go away.

Next to nothing does. There are an infinite number of quantum realities with a Spock that meets the generic facts about elder Spock. The info from elder Spock is largely irrelevant or inconclusive to determining which of millions of realities he might be from. Nothing about "Red Matter", or Nero's vengeance or Romulus being destroyed is a known prior fact of the "prime" universe.

In fact theres not much pre 2387 info from elder Spock about his home universe to compare with previously established information about the "prime" universe. He says Kirks father lived to see Kirk become Captain. Is that a fact from TOS? I don't remember hearing that onscreen prior to ST09. So that's not evidence of anything except that in Elder Spocks quantum reality, Kirks father was on hand to see him be a Captain. We don't know if that's true of TOS Kirk, do we?

Elder Spock speaks about the intense and close bond he and Kirk have and how important it is that he thinks that NuKirk & NuSpock should experience that as well. We all agree that that is consistent with Prime Kirk and Spock. But that could never be conclusive since there are too many other quantum realities where they know each other and are close friends.

 

[Dukhat]

I think it's time to close this pointless topic, IMHO.