Old Spock and new Spock. Is it an alternate universe?

[Tarek71]

It opens up creative possibilities by ignoring creative intent. So, it kind of ignores what the authors are trying to communicate.

Which is fine, as individuals can put their own interpretation on a work of fiction. Just not my preferred method of engaging a work.

Yes and no. To hear Orci and Co tell it, every time travel episode in Trek history created an alternate universe/timeline. Counting the shows and movies, that's over 50. Not including the unknown, possibly infinite, number of alternate quantum realities that pop up from all other causes.

That's them saying this, not me. Orci himself said that in a manner of speaking there is no "prime" timeline at all really, even while insisting that the elder Spock is from the 24 th century continuity last seen in Nemesis.

If everything that can happen, does happen in alternate quantum realities and every time travel case (ST IV, ST FC, etc) creates alternate timelines who knows which universe/timeline/quantum reality elder Spock is from?

 

[Mudd]

Sorry if this was already settled.

No problem. Yeah, this was settled, by the onscreen content of the movie itself. In-universe, old Spock is established to be the Spock from TOS.

 

[Tarek71]

Sorry if this was already settled.

No problem. Yeah, this was settled, by the onscreen content of the movie itself. In-universe, old Spock is established to be the Spock from TOS.

No, absolutely nothing in the movie definitively establishes what universe/timeline/quantum reality elder Spock comes from.

 

[Tarek71]

I think after 10 Pages of discussion, it is established that the NuMovies, and the explanations of the producers/writers only confused people.

They didn't confuse me at all; it's laid out very clearly IMO.

Where? It's not in the movies.

It's not - they've explained it publicly but not in the movie. But discussion of whether the original timeline still exists is an entirely separate issue from the fact, established in the movies and in-universe, that we're talking about an alternate rather than parallel universe and that Nimoy's playing TOS Spock. That's why I addressed them separately.

This is the actual issue with this whole subject. The producers explained it publicly but not in the movie. That means - like in Star Wars - whoever gets in charge of Star Trek after JJ, will explain publicly how the NuMovies are related to the previous installments and whether they will be considered canon or not in the next Show/Movie/WebSeries/Holoprogram (or whatever technology we use to consume it when CBS decides to actually go forward with Star Trek). Take for instance Disney: "The expanded universe is not canon". And the discussion is over. Until that ...possibilities are as limitless, how everything fits together.

Sure, every new showrunner, and production team will have their own spin and take. For instance Orci communicated that their view is that every time travel Trek installment (over 50) created a new alternate quantum reality/timeline.

Is that the way Roddenberry, Bennett, Berman or Braga interpreted those episodes and films they made? IDK. A future writer or producer could say, "no, we don't see it the way JJ and Orci did. Each one of those didn't create a new timeline." We'll see.

 

[BillJ]

Sorry if this was already settled.

No problem. Yeah, this was settled, by the onscreen content of the movie itself. In-universe, old Spock is established to be the Spock from TOS.

+1

Even Nero recognizes the Enterprise, Kirk and Spock of the new timeline.

 

[Mudd]

Even Nero recognizes the Enterprise, Kirk and Spock of the new timeline.

Of course Nero recognizes nuKirk and nuSpock - they look exactly like they did in their youth, back in the TOS universe where he and oldSpock come from.

The movie's littered with little moments like this, establishing that in-Universe these are the exact same people...even Chekov.

 

[Tarek71]

Uh

Sorry if this was already settled.

No problem. Yeah, this was settled, by the onscreen content of the movie itself. In-universe, old Spock is established to be the Spock from TOS.

+1

Even Nero recognizes the Enterprise, Kirk and Spock of the new timeline.

Well we know the Enterprise is different. He recognizes the name. But we know from "Parallels" that there are hundreds of thousands of Enterprise Ds that look the same, and where Worf, Data, Riker, etc all look as they do in countless other quantum realities.

So even if the Nu crew did look the same, and they dont, that would not establish which quantum reality/timeline/universe Nero or elder Spock are from.

 

[Campe]

114 INT. NARADA - BRIDGE - CONTINUOUS 114

The bridge in action --

ROMULAN TACTICAL OFFICER
Fire torpedoes, take them out--!

And just before our heroes are blown into oblivion, Nero
suddenly LURCHES FORWARD and stabs out a hand:

NERO
WAIT!!!

Nero's eyes are hard and bright as diamond drills:

NERO (CONT'D)
The hull -- magnify --

On screen, the Enterprise's hull is revealed "U.S.S. ENTERPRISE
NCC-1701." Nero LIGHTS UP with recognition --

Nero recognized the lines of the ship. Zoomed in and then made a realization.

Then:

NERO
I do not speak for the Empire. We stand
apart. As does your Vulcan crew
member... isn't that right? Spock?

All eyes on Spock. Spock looks to Pike, who nods permission:

SPOCK
(to Nero)
Pardon me. But I don't believe you and I
are acquainted.

NERO
... no, we're not. Not yet.
(then)
I would like you to see something.
Spock.
(then)
Captain Pike-- your transporter
capability is disabled. You will man a
shuttle and come aboard the Narada for
negotiations. That is all.

Granted, this script is a little different than what is onscreen but these points are still there. REGARDLESS, it is OBVIOUS Nero recognizes the Enterprise. It is OBVIOUS Nero recognizes Spock. It is OBVIOUS Spock and Spock Prime are the same people. It is therefore OBVIOUS that it is the intent and therefore the conclusion that the Spock we saw in 1966 and the Spock we saw in 2009 played by both Quinto and Nimoy are one in the same.

 

[Tarek71]

Uh

Granted, this script is a little different than what is onscreen but these points are still there. REGARDLESS, it is OBVIOUS Nero recognizes the Enterprise. It is OBVIOUS Nero recognizes Spock. It is OBVIOUS Spock and Spock Prime are the same people. It is therefore OBVIOUS that it is the intent and therefore the conclusion that the Spock we saw in 1966 and the Spock we saw in 2009 played by both Quinto and Nimoy are one in the same.

Well he recognizes the name Enterprise. Clearly the ship is obviously, visually different. Of course, even if the Enterprise did look the same, and it does not, there are an infinite number of possible timelines/universes where that's what the Enterprise looks like.

Of course, in the NuVerse it looks quite different. But maybe the timeline Nero and elder Spock are from is one where the Enterprise always looked as it appears in the ST09 and therefore no reason to think it's strange.

 

[Mudd]

REGARDLESS, it is OBVIOUS Nero recognizes the Enterprise. It is OBVIOUS Nero recognizes Spock. It is OBVIOUS Spock and Spock Prime are the same people. It is therefore OBVIOUS that it is the intent and therefore the conclusion that the Spock we saw in 1966 and the Spock we saw in 2009 played by both Quinto and Nimoy are one in the same.

Of course it is. It's inarguable.

 

[Campe]

And yet there are 13 pages of one person arguing with the masses.

 

[Tarek71]

REGARDLESS, it is OBVIOUS Nero recognizes the Enterprise. It is OBVIOUS Nero recognizes Spock. It is OBVIOUS Spock and Spock Prime are the same people. It is therefore OBVIOUS that it is the intent and therefore the conclusion that the Spock we saw in 1966 and the Spock we saw in 2009 played by both Quinto and Nimoy are one in the same.

Of course it is. It's inarguable.

Except that I have shown how easily it is. You just sidestep it.

 

[Tarek71]

And yet there are 13 pages of one person arguing with the masses.

Because of how easily it's argued. It's JJ, Bob Orci, etc who decided to not only accept TNG "Parallels" and the existence of an infinite number of quantum realities/timelines/universes, but introduce the idea that all time travel does is create other, new parallel, quantum realities. Does that mean that each of the dozens of time travel events in TOS-TNG-DS9-VOY-ENT-Movies created a new parallel, alternate quantum reality? Yes. That's not my pain in the ass self saying that, that's what they are saying.

LOL! So which Spock is this elder Spock? What "quantum reality' is he from? What alternate/parallel universe? We have no way of knowing. The onscreen evidence is not conclusive one way or another.

 

[BillJ]

While not canon, in Countdown, when Nero pulls up an image of Kirk, it is Prime Kirk we see.

 

[Tarek71]

While not canon, in Countdown, when Nero pulls up an image of Kirk, it is Prime Kirk we see.

We all agree that JJ intends them to be the same characters, and furthermore they chose to not make any storytelling use of their obviously different appearance. The differences in ship appearance is different. They do intend that. The nacelles really are differently shaped. Those globes at the front of them don't look blue to us, but red to the characters. They really are blue in this timeline.

But even if the ship looked the same as in TOS and all the crew really looked the same, it would not establish what quantum reality/universe/timeline elder Spock and Nero come from. Lots of possibilities there!

 

[BillJ]

Lots of possibilities there!

There are no possibilities. Nimoy is dead and they have moved on from the time split.

 

[Mudd]

While not canon, in Countdown, when Nero pulls up an image of Kirk, it is Prime Kirk we see.

Well, there's no question that Nero immediately recognizes Kirk and Spock when he meets them in the movie, so he's seen images of them in their youth somewhere.

Where and when that was can be the stuff of speculation, tie-in stories and fan fiction. What is indisputably and demonstrably true in-universe, right there in the movie itself, is that we're to accept the new actors as perfect physical doubles of the old actors.

If someone can't get over that, maybe they won't enjoy the movie - but it can't be credibly argued with.

There are no possibilities. Nimoy is dead and they have moved on from the time split.

Yeah, really. No one else will ever care.

 

[Tarek71]

I can only surmise that some fans are on a certain level emotionally attached to these last appearances of Leonard Nimoy as Spock, and that it somehow lessens the value of his appearance if he is just one Spock among billions of possible, alternate Spocks. He needs to be THE Spock...our Spock. You know, the one who sang "bitter dregs", whose brain was stolen, who died saving the ship and was regenerated by the Genesis wave and nerve pinched that punk music guy on the bus.

And suggesting otherwise somehow hollows out the elder, august Spock that stands face to face with Quinto Spock. I just see lots of awesome possibilities. Intriguing variations. But I now see that for some fans, it's almost like a slap in the face to say elder Spock is only Spock from Quantum Reality No. 37592738.

 

[Tarek71]

Lots of possibilities there!

There are no possibilities. Nimoy is dead and they have moved on from the time split.

Oh contraire! Lots of possibilities! ST09 itself is just one of the many possibilities. Indeed a future story in the 24th century can ignore ST09, and use JJ and Bob's own reasoning to do it. "Oh that was a different quantum reality. In this reality, Romulus was saved and will appear in future stories. Prime Spock died peacefully in his sleep at age 200 right here in the Primeverse."

 

[Tarek71]

What is indisputably and demonstrably true in-universe, right there in the movie itself, is that we're to accept the new actors as perfect physical doubles of the old actors.

Even if they were, and they clearly are not, it wouldn't establish what timeline/universe/quantum reality Nero and elder Spock are from.

There are no doubt billions or a billion, billion universes where Spock and Kirk and Scotty look just like they did in TOS and yet they are not the same ones. We have no way of knowing where elder Spock and Nero are from.