Ok. What is the chance of a Picard spinoff?

[Danja]

Indeed, and it stands out in other shows too (looking at you Night Court).

Night Court, NewsRadio (NewsRadio in space? Seriously? )

NR went to sh*t after Phil Hartman died.

That's how I feel about shows like Criminal Minds which I am doing a rewatch of.... I felt it went on too long and I'm only on season 10

Another show that strained credibility ("Our suspect is a short, overweight male in his mid-thirties with purple spiked hair and a shoe fetish. We know this from the way he cuts the crust off his sandwiches." )

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

Another show that strained credibility ("Our suspect is a short, overweight male in his mid-thirties with purple spiked hair and a shoe fetish. We know this from the way he cuts the crust off his sandwiches." )

Yeah sometimes when they presented a profile I just laughed

 

[STEPhon IT]

Hadn't read this...

If it's not serialized, I'm not interested. It's one of the problems I have with SNW. I don't want disposable, episodic one-and-dones.

Stories with their own beginning, middle, and end that are part of an overall season arc or series arc would be okay. But otherwise? No. We have hundreds upon hundreds upon hundreds of hours of that already.

What Terry Matalas did with The 12 Monkeys, he should make Legacy like THAT. And to anyone who hasn't seen it, I ask, "What the Hell are you waiting for?! Go watch it!!!" I have a whole thread in here where you can see my first-time reactions.

Anyway, you can weave in a ton of things, so you still get the variety you'd have with something that's episodic, while still being serialized. I'm hoping that's what he meant.

I want episodic. I like the constraints of a writer having to be sharper on telling a story which is one and done. If the story gets heat then I think it should be open to telling a continuing tale, but to have these long running serialized plots where they appeared could've been told in 2 episodes is boring and a waste of time and money. The truth is not every running serialized tale is interesting to hold up to 10 episodes and this wasted format will lead to burn out.

 

[fireproof78]

Then there's NCIS (currently in its 20th season )

How many times has THAT show overturned its cast?

About 4, but they've done minor changes through the series (Gerald for Palmer as the medical assistant, three different directors, and different agents).

Still a good watch.

The truth is not every running serialized tale is interesting to hold up to 10 episodes and this wasted format will lead to burn out.

It's a balancing act. I don't mind episodic if (big if) if shit still matters in the next episode. If it's completely ignored then that's no longer that interesting to me. It can be good, but not appealing to me because things feel more meaningless.

I'm not looking for a season long mystery box but not looking for bottle episodes with no connection to one another aside from cast and setting.

 

[HotRod]

I still think Enterprise cracked the code with their 4th season of mini arcs.

I'd love to see any of the series try that approach again.

 

[Campe]

I personally like how SNW does it. There’s an overarching emotional story while each week has a beginning, middle and end. being said: other franchises and series are able to do serialized storytelling well. Trek has just made the stakes too high.

 

[Uhura's Song]

I prefer episodic to serialized. I tend to favor episodes that have resolutions. Or shorter arcs. Or arcs that don't so dominate the plot that nothing else gets done for 10 episodes.

My favorite Trek IS episodic (TNG, TOS, DS9, SNW). Or at least with the arcs shirter or in the background.

But I think Trek has pulled off serialized well from time to time (DS9, ENT S3-S4, PIC S3, DISCO S4, PRO/LD).

 

[Uhura's Song]

Personally, I think the next P+ movie after S31 will be the Picard/TNG walkoff/Legacy launch.

 

[The Wormhole]

One of the main problems with serialized Star Trek is all the season long story arcs tend to center around two concepts, war and/or the galactic apocalypse. There are other things you can spend a season focusing on.

 

[Danja]

Indeed, and it stands out in other shows too (looking at you Night Court).

OT: NewsRadio did two "WTF?" episodes (The first was set in space, the second took place on the Titanic.)

Why they did the Titanic, I have no idea (The episode took place near the end of the show's run. Maybe it was the writers' Meta commentary on the show being a "sinking ship" at that point? )

 

[The Wormhole]

Why they did the Titanic, I have no idea

The episode aired in spring 1998, at a time when the James Cameron movie was at its height of popularity. Which might have influenced the decision a bit.

 

[Sci]

You know, I don't have a problem with Star Trek: Seven of Nine. I don't particularly have a problem with Star Trek: Enterprise-G. But the whole idea of Star Trek: Legacy -- which suggests a show that is backwards-looking, mired in permanent nostalgia, gives its budget and creative energy to old characters instead of new, and is generally fixated on the past instead of looking forwards to the future... that seems genuinely antithetical to the spirit of Star Trek at a certain point.

Like, there is a reason Gene Roddenberry created Star Trek: The Next Generation instead of Star Trek: What is Captain Kirk Up to These Days.

That juxtaposition, in fact, between the two titles -- The Next Generation vs. Legacy -- says a lot about the difference between their creative visions.

 

[Danja]

You know, I don't have a problem with Star Trek: Seven of Nine. I don't particularly have a problem with Star Trek: Enterprise-G. But the whole idea of Star Trek: Legacy -- which suggests a show that is backwards-looking, mired in permanent nostalgia, gives its budget and creative energy to old characters instead of new, and is generally fixated on the past instead of looking forwards to the future... that seems genuinely antithetical to the spirit of Star Trek at a certain point.

Like, there is a reason Gene Roddenberry created Star Trek: The Next Generation instead of Star Trek: What is Captain Kirk Up to These Days.

That juxtaposition, in fact, between the two titles -- The Next Generation vs. Legacy -- says a lot about the difference between their creative visions.

That's my issue with Matalas's vision for Legacy (and another reason why I haven't signed the petition calling for him to be showrunner).

Let Lower Decks handle the nostalgia. We have a ship, Captain Seven of Nine, and a new, young crew. Let's build on THAT.

 

[Lord Garth]

You know, I don't have a problem with Star Trek: Seven of Nine. I don't particularly have a problem with Star Trek: Enterprise-G. But the whole idea of Star Trek: Legacy -- which suggests a show that is backwards-looking, mired in permanent nostalgia, gives its budget and creative energy to old characters instead of new, and is generally fixated on the past instead of looking forwards to the future... that seems genuinely antithetical to the spirit of Star Trek at a certain point.

Like, there is a reason Gene Roddenberry created Star Trek: The Next Generation instead of Star Trek: What is Captain Kirk Up to These Days.

That juxtaposition, in fact, between the two titles -- The Next Generation vs. Legacy -- says a lot about the difference between their creative visions.

I think you're putting WAY too much stock into something that's just a name. You've built it up too much. Supposedly he wanted PIC S3 to be called "Legacy". Which, there, makes sense. But he couldn't let go of the name.

It's like Nick Meyer using "The Undiscovered Country" for Star Trek VI. "The Undiscovered Country" refers to death. Which makes sense for where he originally wanted to use the title, in Star Trek II. But he couldn't let go of using the title. So it went to ST VI, where it made less sense.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: They can't afford to have that many TNG/DS9/VOY characters back. PIC Season 3 was a one-time thing. They couldn't have everyone back even if they wanted to. It's not going to continue happening because it can't continue happening. The economic realities of show business wouldn't allow for it.

The main focus of Legacy would be the Enterprise-G crew. If we see characters from other series, it likely will be the same level as what we've seen in other series, as well as the first two seasons of Picard. I think Legacy is being specifically singled out, unfairly, before a single frame is even shot.

As far as titles:

"The Next Generation" --> In-universe, it's really the fifth generation, if you're counting from TOS. But "Star Trek: The Fifth Generation" sounds like a shitty title.

"Deep Space Nine" --> Michael Piller just threw up that name as a placeholder, before they knew it would be the name of the station. But why "Nine"? And it's not "Deep Space" to the Bajorans. It's home. "This 'wilderness' is my home."

"Strange New Worlds" --> How much of it is strange? How much of it is new? And in some episodes they probably don't even visit worlds. But "Strange New Worlds" makes for a catchy title.

"Discovery" --> The ship is named Discovery. But, except for Burnham discovering the cause of The Burn, and the Discovery crew discovering the 32nd Century in general, they weren't doing that much discovering. Season 5 actually seems like it'll be the season where the series might live up to the title the most (in its purest form) with a treasure hunt. Technically they discover the Mirror Universe in Season 1, but it was also covered up immediately by Starfleet. And it's something we as the audience already knew about, so it was a discovery for them but not for us. You could throw in discovering Zora too. But, in the first four seasons at least, the title of the series has been a lot more subtle than "Every week is a new discovery!", which is what someone could think if they saw the title but didn't know anything else about the series.

So you can't really put that much stock into a title all the time.

 

[Sci]

I think you're putting WAY too much stock into something that's just a name. You've built it up too much.

I'm taking into account the kind of thematic preoccupations PIC S3 had, the references to TNG characters as recurring characters, the apparent presence of two different children of legacy characters, the apparent plan to de facto undo Q's death and bring Q back as a recurring antagonist for Jack -- and that occuring on top of Matalas's record of shitting all over the dramatic integrity of PIC S1 just to un-do Data's death...

And most of all, I'm thinking of the contrast between the "thesis statement" moments in TUC vs. "The Last Generation." Whereas Kirk declares, "It's about the future, Madam Chancellor. Some people can be very frightened of change," Picard declares, "If ever there was better evidence that the past mattered... it's right here."

The title just seems to be the summation of this nostalgia-fixated preoccupation with the past over the future.

 

[Danja]

I've said it before and I'll say it again: They can't afford to have that many TNG/DS9/VOY characters back. PIC Season 3 was a one-time thing. They couldn't have everyone back even if they wanted to. It's not going to continue happening because it can't happen. The economic realities of show business wouldn't allow for it.

Terry Matalas had to dump most of Picard's original S1 cast just to afford the TNG cast.

 

[Lord Garth]

And most of all, I'm thinking of the contrast between the "thesis statement" moments in TUC vs. "The Last Generation." Whereas Kirk declares, "It's about the future, Madam Chancellor. Some people can be very frightened of change," Picard declares, "If ever there was better evidence that the past mattered... it's right here."

1991 versus 2023.

In 1991, the USSR dissolved, the Cold War ended, we were entering a new era. In Star Trek, TNG had been on for four years. The world as it had been was ending, it was clear we were facing a new era in Real Life. In Star Trek, the next era had been shown to us for over 100 episodes. They knew what they could look forward to.

In 2023, we're not at the end of anything. We're in the middle of something that most people are struggling to wrap their heads around because Trump has stress-tested everything. The USA is polarized and becoming more polarized. War is going on and continuing on. It's just a middle with no end in sight. Then there's Star Trek. There's no definable "next" era because the series are spread out all across the timeline. Discovery takes place too far after Picard for them in-universe to say "That's the next era! That's what we're working towards!" So, with no clear definable future, with a middle that seems to be staying a middle, and is less than ideal, the natural tendency is to look back. "See how it was back then?" Because they know how it ended. How it turned out.

Except, if Legacy is continuing on, then it's not the ending. Which means the "safety net" is taken away because anything is fair game. Things can be shaken up from where they were before. They're not going back to a status quo where everything remains the same. Things will be changed up out of dramatic necessity.

 

[cal888]

I've said it before and I'll say it again: They can't afford to have that many TNG/DS9/VOY characters back. PIC Season 3 was a one-time thing. They couldn't have everyone back even if they wanted to. It's not going to continue happening because it can't continue happening. The economic realities of show business wouldn't allow for it.

The main focus of Legacy would be the Enterprise-G crew. If we see characters from other series, it likely will be the same level as what we've seen in other series, as well as the first two seasons of Picard. I think Legacy is being specifically singled out, unfairly, before a single frame is even shot.

Okay let's game this out. Matalas would likely have a multi-season plan... say something that would run for 3-5 years.

What are some of the greatest hanging plot threads from TNG / DS9 / VGR / ENT (why the last one... he's a time travel guy)? What couldn't be done in the 1990's because of the syndication / reset button model? There is a ton of low hanging fruit that could easily be explored, but they'd likely only have a few per season. You could put quantum slipstream on the E-G and really go anywhere in the Gamma or Delta Quadrants too. Matalas would also be aware of years and years of Brannon Braga et al's ideas that were shot down by UPN. But I would expect LOWER DECKS to have far far far more continuity tie ins and easter eggs/"memberberries" than Legacy.

In 12 MONKEYS and PICARD he had both finales swing back to the beginning and come full circle thematically. He'd likely film scenes very out of order, maybe even holding onto them for years. He might block shoot scenes for multiple episodes on location in an exotic location. There'd likely be a loose serialized arc covering the entire planned series. Each season would have its own loose semi-serialized arc. 1/3 episodes directly linked to the arc, 1/3 with some connection, and 1/3 stand alone. The mystery box each season stands largely alone model would be out, replaced with seasons coming to a head in the finale and setting up what's coming next in the season premiere -- a la several DS9 seasons.

Hell, if Paramount+ funds remastering DS9 and VGR in HD, they might be fine with more tie ins, but this is a commercial enterprise so there's likely a middle ground far away from what some people here are fearing.

 

[Lord Garth]

Okay let's game this out. Matalas would likely have a multi-season plan... say something that would run for 3-5 years.

What are some of the greatest hanging plot threads from TNG / DS9 / VGR / ENT (why the last one... he's a time travel guy)? What couldn't be done in the 1990's because of the syndication / reset button model? There is a ton of low hanging fruit that could easily be explored, but they'd likely only have a few per season. You could put quantum slipstream on the E-G and really go anywhere in the Gamma or Delta Quadrants too. Matalas would also be aware of years and years of Brannon Braga et al's ideas that were shot down by UPN. But I would expect LOWER DECKS to have far far far more continuity tie ins and easter eggs/"memberberries" than Legacy.

In 12 MONKEYS and PICARD he had both finales swing back to the beginning and come full circle thematically. He'd likely film scenes very out of order, maybe even holding onto them for years. He might block shoot scenes for multiple episodes on location in an exotic location. There'd likely be a loose serialized arc covering the entire planned series. Each season would have its own loose semi-serialized arc. 1/3 episodes directly linked to the arc, 1/3 with some connection, and 1/3 stand alone. The mystery box each season stands largely alone model would be out, replaced with seasons coming to a head in the finale and setting up what's coming next in the season premiere -- a la several DS9 seasons.

Hell, if Paramount+ funds remastering DS9 and VGR in HD, they might be fine with more tie ins, but this is a commercial enterprise so there's likely a middle ground far away from what some people here are fearing.

It's 1:50 AM EST, as of this typing, so I can't give the type of detailed answer I'd like to, but, off the top of my head:

Who I think they could have:
I've mentioned before that I think with Slipstream, and Seven of Nine as Captain, I think the Enterprise-G might travel to the Delta Quadrant. That being the case, I think they follow up with Species 8472, the Hirogen, and the only once seen Vaudwaur. I also think Voyager made a bad impression on several hard-headed aliens in the Delta Quadrant, so some of them might have banded together if Starfleet ever returns. If you're dealing with time-travel, there's also a possibility of re-introducing the Krenim.

... FOR THOSE WHO ARE SKIMMING, READ BELOW!!! ...
Dark Horse Possibility: Voyager was travelling through the Delta Quadrant in a straight line. The Enterprise-G wouldn't have to do that. If they're in the Delta Quadrant, they could run into new enemies or allies that were never seen in VOY. It would also help to avoid the question of, "Where were these species before?" that you'd run into if they introduced them in the Alpha Quadrant.
^^^ FOR THOSE WHO ARE SKIMMING, READ ABOVE!!! ^^^

The Klingon Empire was never followed up upon in Picard. They could do that in Legacy.

More could be done with the Romulan Free State. PIC Season 1 went a long way to flesh out the Romulans. Seasons 2 and 3 didn't really get to, so it would be nice if Legacy continued that.

The Fenris Rangers. They need to be fleshed out more. Legacy is the perfect chance to do that. Especially with Seven's history with them.

I think the Cardassians are still in shambles. It's only been 25-ish years since DS9 ended (can't believe I just typed that!). It would take a LOT longer for Cardassia to recover. But maybe we can see how the Cardassians cope with effectively being taken off the map.

There are always the bugs from "Conspiracy".

I think they could do something with the Xindi.

The Jurati-Borg.

The Watchers. I don't know if we'll see Wesley again, but it would be a good way to involve Kore. If they ever time-travel back to the 21st Century again, we'll see the Watchers for sure.

Who I think they won't have:
The Suliban. They won't deal with any Temporal (Cold) War shenanigans. I think the 25th Century is too soon for that. They could have time-travel craziness, but I don't think it'll be the Temporal Cold War from ENT.

The "Normal" Borg. I think they're gone for good. Except for flashbacks.

The Dominion. I'm just not seeing it. Odo has rejoined with them and, except for rouges like Vadic, they're no longer a threat.

The Kazon. Sorry.

 

[Danja]

In 12 MONKEYS and PICARD he had both finales swing back to the beginning and come full circle thematically. He'd likely film scenes very out of order, maybe even holding onto them for years.

You think P+ would allow that? Film a scene that that wouldn't make it to air for 2-3 seasons?

The Klingon Empire was never followed up upon in Picard. They could do that in Legacy.

It was touched on in Disco and pre-2005 Trek.

I think the Cardassians are still in shambles. It's only been 25-ish years since DS9 ended (can't believe I just typed that!). It would take a LOT longer for Cardassia to recover. But maybe we can see how the Cardassians cope with effectively being taken off the map.

They could play with the theme of the Cardassians wanting to go back to "the way things used to be" (a la present-day Russia).

Cardassian civil war?

The "Normal" Borg. I think they're gone for good. Except for flashbacks.

They could come from an alternate dimension through the portal and wreak havoc with the Jurati-Borg.