Ok Trekkers, Don't Forget To Sign Up For Mandatory Obamacare Oct 1st

[Tora Ziyal]

Re: Ok Trekkers, Don't Forget To Sign Up For Mandatory Obamacare Oct 1

Is it just me or in this thread those who oppose the PPACA when asked questions about alternatives, how an alternative system would work. Seem rather short on answering those questions?

Nope, it's not just you.

 

[BillJ]

Re: Ok Trekkers, Don't Forget To Sign Up For Mandatory Obamacare Oct 1

The only compromise that's come out of congress is from the house. The Senate and POTUS won't even talk.

This is a lie.

Bull.

Watch something other than Fox News...

The ACA passed the House.
The ACA passed the Senate.
The ACA was signed into law by the President.
The ACA was challenged as being unconstitutional.
The ACA was ruled constitutional by the United States Supreme Court.

It is the law of the land and the Federal Budget and Debt Limit shouldn't be held hostage by some fringe Right-wingers who simply can't admit they lost.

If the reverse happened and the country was held hostage by a few Left-wingers who couldn't admit that a Republican law was the law of the land, the Republicans would be going batshit nuts and rightly so.

The Republicans have tried to vote out the ACA at least 41 times and its time for them to let go and move on to the current business of the nation.

I urge you to call your local representative and tell them that if you truly value what's good for the nation as a whole.

 

[Manticore]

Re: Ok Trekkers, Don't Forget To Sign Up For Mandatory Obamacare Oct 1

Medicaid is the result of government intervention in the insurance system. It's a hand out because the free market isn't allowed to thrive.

If you ask me, Health Care should be a basic service, as we all require it to live. The idea that it should be on the free market is disgusting.

There are parts of the ACA that are good. But a one page bill could have taken care of those (preexisting conditions, etc.). But no, we get 2400 pages of regulation and federal control, with a program that is going to add 10 trillion to the debt over the next ten years. Oh, they had 3 years to develop the exchanges, and on day one they crash. There's government efficiency for you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diablo_3#Marketing_and_release
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SimCity_V#Release
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_Fantasy_XIV:_A_Realm_Reborn#Testing_and_release

Yes, big government clearly caused healthcare.gov to fail, not the fact that it was a highly anticipated online service like the three I listed above.

Because that's not compromise, that's "Do what I want, or I fuck over the country." Otherwise known as blackmail, or an ultimatum.

That's laughable.

Just like the "debt limit".

No matter what dribble you hear from the news, we DO NOT need to increase it to pay our bills, we just very simply need to make some cuts.

All we are doing is increasing the spending limit on an institution that has proven they can't be responsible when it comes to spending.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_debt_ceiling

Specifically:

Because expenditures are authorized by separate legislation, the debt ceiling does not actually restrict deficits. In effect, it can only restrain the Treasury from paying for expenditures that have already been incurred.

Congress has already authorized this spending - the debt limit just allows the treasury to actually pay for the spending.

 

[Yanks]

Re: Ok Trekkers, Don't Forget To Sign Up For Mandatory Obamacare Oct 1

The fact that the exchanges crashed on day one could tell you something. Is that there was greater demand out there than predicted. So instead of it being unpopular it was more popular than predicted.

They didn't expect that?

Only 7 million tried to get on... what 350 million in America?

What a cop out.

Isn't the population of America somewhere around the 315-320m mark?

Sure, OK.

Guess they expected less than 7 million.

 

[Manticore]

Re: Ok Trekkers, Don't Forget To Sign Up For Mandatory Obamacare Oct 1

They didn't expect that?

Only 7 million tried to get on... what 350 million in America?

What a cop out.

Isn't the population of America somewhere around the 315-320m mark?

Sure, OK.

Guess they expected less than 7 million.

As someone who works for a company that manages an online service, it's not so much what is expected (that plays only a small factor) as what the hardware is capable of. Not to mention that it was launched in the middle of a shutdown, so it wouldn't surprise me if the government's IT departments were on the fritz, hence why it took so long to come back up.

 

[MacLeod]

Re: Ok Trekkers, Don't Forget To Sign Up For Mandatory Obamacare Oct 1

snip

What is it about conservative posters that they consistently refuse to use the Multi-Quote function? Is it because the Founding Fathers chose not to include it in the Constitution? Is it because it was originally a socialist program designed to consolidate individual freedom-loving posts into one big bloated entity? Is it because the board software was secretly developed in Kenya and given fake licensing in America?

Yanks, your posts alone represent about a third of the posts on this page, they're as often as not just one or two line sarcastic or cliche replies with little in the way of debatable content, and they're frequently posted one right after another or in short succession. It's the internet equivalent of shouting down the opposition to drown out their message. Now, I get that it's a largely liberally slanted board, but that doesn't mean you have to overcompensate in the other direction by matching all of them post for post. Quality over quantity is key.

Here is a thought, is there a difference between what the USA classes as Liberal and what Europe classes as Liberal. Could it be acase of what the US classes as Liberal Europe classes as more centrist?

 

[Tora Ziyal]

Re: Ok Trekkers, Don't Forget To Sign Up For Mandatory Obamacare Oct 1

^ Yes, my understanding is that most US liberals are not liberal by European standards.

 

[Yanks]

Re: Ok Trekkers, Don't Forget To Sign Up For Mandatory Obamacare Oct 1

This is a lie.

Bull.

Watch something other than Fox News...

The ACA passed the House.

Straight party vote.

The ACA passed the Senate.

Straight party vote.

The ACA was signed into law by the President.
The ACA was challenged as being unconstitutional.
The ACA was ruled constitutional by the United States Supreme Court.

Completely unconstitutional decision.

It was written as a tax, the only way it could be constitutional is if the SC changed it and made it a tax.

It is the law of the land and the Federal Budget and Debt Limit shouldn't be held hostage by some fringe Right-wingers who simply can't admit they lost.

Just keep spending and printing money, we'll see what happens.

If the reverse happened and the country was held hostage by a few Left-wingers who couldn't admit that a Republican law was the law of the land, the Republicans would be going batshit nuts and rightly so.

If the republicans weren't even TALKING then that would be the same situation reversed.

The Republicans have tried to vote out the ACA at least 41 times and its time for them to let go and move on to the current business of the nation.

I urge you to call your local representative and tell them that if you truly value what's good for the nation as a whole.

As they should. Their constituents and the majority of the American people don't want it. The polls were CLEAR when they voted it in.

Over 1000 waivers illegally given by Obama to his buds?

I do express my opinion. Not just here.

 

[Manticore]

Re: Ok Trekkers, Don't Forget To Sign Up For Mandatory Obamacare Oct 1

As they should. Their constituents and the majority of the American people don't want it. The polls were CLEAR when they voted it in.

Hilariously, Republicans got less votes than Democrats did in the House. They were just all operating out of gerrymandered districts, so they squeezed by.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...hoyer-house-democrats-won-majority-2012-popu/

 

[Alidar Jarok]

Re: Ok Trekkers, Don't Forget To Sign Up For Mandatory Obamacare Oct 1

It's worth pointing out that gerrymandering isn't the only reason. The sad fact remains that Democrats live in overwhelmingly democratic areas (like urban areas) while Republicans generally live in rural areas. In those areas, even if the population is 55 or 60% Republican, that's enough to win the district, while a 90% Democratic district is just wasting 40% of the vote.

That's part of the reason why the GOP won the House even though a majority of Americans don't support them. Certainly, it's possible to redistrict to break up vote concentrations, but that doesn't mean it's necessarily gerrymandered as the term is commonly understood.

 

[BillJ]

Re: Ok Trekkers, Don't Forget To Sign Up For Mandatory Obamacare Oct 1

As they should. Their constituents and the majority of the American people don't want it. The polls were CLEAR when they voted it in.

Hilariously, Republicans got less votes than Democrats did in the House. They were just all operating out of gerrymandered districts, so they squeezed by.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...hoyer-house-democrats-won-majority-2012-popu/

Well Yanks misses the whole point of democracy. If people are overwhelmingly unhappy about the law, they will start voting out those who were responsible for it.

But since that hasn't yet happened...

 

[MacLeod]

Re: Ok Trekkers, Don't Forget To Sign Up For Mandatory Obamacare Oct 1

As they should. Their constituents and the majority of the American people don't want it. The polls were CLEAR when they voted it in.

Hilariously, Republicans got less votes than Democrats did in the House. They were just all operating out of gerrymandered districts, so they squeezed by.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...hoyer-house-democrats-won-majority-2012-popu/

Agreed, as I cov red that topic 2-3 pages ago. Yes the Republicans won more seats. But in terms of votes cast they got fewer by some 1.5m or so. The had a negative swing, whilst the Democrats had a positive swing.

 

[iguana_tonante]

Re: Ok Trekkers, Don't Forget To Sign Up For Mandatory Obamacare Oct 1

Straight party vote.

Straight party vote.

Mh, that's kinda how democracy works. Next time try to win the elections.

Completely unconstitutional decision.

I don't think you get to decide this. It's the Supreme Court's job.

Their constituents and the majority of the American people don't want it. The polls were CLEAR when they voted it

You don't really get how democracy works, do you?

 

[marksound]

Re: Ok Trekkers, Don't Forget To Sign Up For Mandatory Obamacare Oct 1

As they should. Their constituents and the majority of the American people don't want it. The polls were CLEAR when they voted it in.

Hilariously, Republicans got less votes than Democrats did in the House. They were just all operating out of gerrymandered districts, so they squeezed by.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...hoyer-house-democrats-won-majority-2012-popu/

Agreed, as I cov red that topic 2-3 pages ago. Yes the Republicans won more seats. But in terms of votes cast they got fewer by some 1.5m or so. The had a negative swing, whilst the Democrats had a positive swing.

In the last two presidential elections, a large number of Republicans were disgusted with the candidates offered by the party and just chose to stay home. Unfortunately, a vote not cast for one's own party equals a vote for the other party.

Here's an interesting point of view:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffrey...ong-ago-predicted-obamacares-looming-failure/

The Affordable Care Act is not nearly so much an attempt to lower the costs of health care in the U.S. as it is an attempt to correct cosmic injustices.

ETA:

You don't really get how democracy works, do you?

The United States is not a "democracy." It is a constitutional republic. Look it up.

 

[Awesome Possum]

Re: Ok Trekkers, Don't Forget To Sign Up For Mandatory Obamacare Oct 1

As they should. Their constituents and the majority of the American people don't want it. The polls were CLEAR when they voted it in.

Hilariously, Republicans got less votes than Democrats did in the House. They were just all operating out of gerrymandered districts, so they squeezed by.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...hoyer-house-democrats-won-majority-2012-popu/

Well Yanks misses the whole point of democracy. If people are overwhelmingly unhappy about the law, they will start voting out those who were responsible for it.

But since that hasn't yet happened...

Why do you think that Republicans are holding the country (and the world if it lasts till the debt ceiling decision) hostage. They lost, the majority of the people want it and their lies about the ACA have only convinced the people who would support the GOP for anything without considering it. They know that after a while it will be like Medicare and Social Security. A completely accepted part of being a citizen and if they touch it, people get upset.

This is the only chance they have left to stop it and they're willing to take the whole country down to do it. They don't care what is best for America, it's just what's best for them. Hopefully they'll get voted out in the next election and replaced by someone with common sense of either party. It would be nice to get some reasonable Republicans back in office.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

Re: Ok Trekkers, Don't Forget To Sign Up For Mandatory Obamacare Oct 1

Now, I get that it's a largely liberally slanted board, but that doesn't mean you have to overcompensate in the other direction by matching all of them post for post.

Here is a thought, is there a difference between what the USA classes as Liberal and what Europe classes as Liberal. Could it be acase of what the US classes as Liberal Europe classes as more centrist?

Yes, that is largely true for the populace and government, though I'd argue the majority of American liberals on TrekBBS lean further to the left than the general public (when we do the political compass tests around here every so often, American liberals are usually just as far to the left as their European counterparts). However, it is irritating at times to see American liberals frequently labelled as centrists by assumption when they're advocating for the same things European liberals are (like single-payer health care for a relevant example). They just aren't always able to get it because there is a strong obstructionist opposition.

But since the poster in question is further to the right of European liberals, American liberals, American centrists, moderate Republicans, and most other conservatives; since my post was clearly referring to left wing posters of all backgrounds, and since my point was not about measuring the actual strength in numbers of both sides of the political spectrum on TrekBBS but simply saying you don't need to drown out your opponents with an excessive number of posts, I'm a little lost on what your question has to do with what I posted.

You don't really get how democracy works, do you?

The United States is not a "democracy." It is a constitutional republic. Look it up.

That's a cutesy gotcha answer that's meant to look smart but doesn't actually contradict his point at all. Yes, the US is not a "pure/direct democracy" because the people do not decide policy directly at the federal level (though some states do with ballot initiatives and so forth), but rather through elected representatives. But it is a democracy in the more general sense in that the government derives its power from the people and is accountable to them.

 

[MacLeod]

Re: Ok Trekkers, Don't Forget To Sign Up For Mandatory Obamacare Oct 1

Democracy comes in many forms, Broadly Democracy means

A form of Government which allows people to participate equally—either directly or through elected representatives—in the proposal, development, and creation of laws.

So USA is a democracy under the broad definition of democracy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_types_of_democracy#cite_note-JHUPress-1

 

[MacLeod]

Re: Ok Trekkers, Don't Forget To Sign Up For Mandatory Obamacare Oct 1

Now, I get that it's a largely liberally slanted board, but that doesn't mean you have to overcompensate in the other direction by matching all of them post for post.

Here is a thought, is there a difference between what the USA classes as Liberal and what Europe classes as Liberal. Could it be acase of what the US classes as Liberal Europe classes as more centrist?

Yes, that is largely true for the populace and government, though I'd argue the majority of American liberals on TrekBBS lean further to the left than the general public (when we do the political compass tests around here every so often, American liberals are usually just as far to the left as their European counterparts). However, it is irritating at times to see American liberals frequently labelled as centrists by assumption when they're advocating for the same things European liberals are (like single-payer health care for a relevant example). They just aren't always able to get it because there is a strong obstructionist opposition.

But since the poster in question is further to the right of European liberals, American liberals, American centrists, moderate Republicans, and most other conservatives; since my post was clearly referring to left wing posters of all backgrounds, and since my point was not about measuring the actual strength in numbers of both sides of the political spectrum on TrekBBS but simply saying you don't need to drown out your opponents with an excessive number of posts, I'm a little lost on what your question has to do with what I posted.

You were saying that the members of the board are largely liberal, perhaps it would be more accurate to say largely liberal by American standards. As has been mentioned posters from other countries outside of the USA find themselves agreeing more with the Democratic Party viewpoint, whilst in their home country they might be to the centre/centre-right of the policitcal spectrum. i.e. not liberal.

 

[iguana_tonante]

Re: Ok Trekkers, Don't Forget To Sign Up For Mandatory Obamacare Oct 1

You don't really get how democracy works, do you?

The United States is not a "democracy." It is a constitutional republic. Look it up.

Oh, how I love this.

I'll just quote one of the many posts I have made on that regard (and be grateful it's not the longest or the most scating):

The United States is not a Democracy and never has been. It's a Republic.

Urgh. No. The US is both a republic (a form of state in which the country is considered a "common good" and not the legal propriety of the sovereign) and a democracy (a system of governing in which all citizens have an equal say in the choices of government). I don't know why this is so difficult for some people.

Open a book, will ya?

 

[Locutus of Bored]

Re: Ok Trekkers, Don't Forget To Sign Up For Mandatory Obamacare Oct 1

You were saying that the members of the board are largely liberal, perhaps it would be more accurate to say largely liberal by American standards. As has been mentioned posters from other countries outside of the USA find themselves agreeing more with the Democratic Party viewpoint, whilst in their home country they might be to the centre/centre-right of the policitcal spectrum. i.e. not liberal.

You're absolutely right. That was an incredibly important distinction to make right at the moment when I was talking to a conservative American poster about the Multi-Quote function. It really clarified that debate no one was having.