Oh boy...IDW just brought up the money thing again.

[Nightdiamond]

In ST:FC, Picard said the following: "The economics of the future are somewhat different. You see, money doesn't exist in the 24th century. The acquisition of wealth is no longer the driving force in our lives. We work to better ourselves and the rest of Humanity."

So if there's no pay, what's the motivation for people in service jobs like janitorial/maintenance (assuming everything isn't automated yet)? Who would do that out of the goodness of their hearts?

I also think of Ben Sisko's father running a restaurant (and all the servers, busboys and dishwashers)... Is it just a hobby?

This is exactly what I mean. If we take Picard literally, the busboys and waiters and even Sisko himself are doing this for the fun of it, to better themselves.

So are maids,the people that clean waste extraction units(bathrooms) and other "menial jobs" .

Trek is so ambiguous on the matter, I've come to the conclusion that Sisko pretends to run a business--like a child's lemonade stand-- as crazy as that sounds.

In ST:FC, Picard said the following: "The economics of the future are somewhat different. You see, money doesn't exist in the 24th century. The acquisition of wealth is no longer the driving force in our lives. We work to better ourselves and the rest of Humanity."

Lily: "I asked if you got paid."

Picard: "Oh, umm ... yes."

Lily: "Was that so hard?"

Right?? Why don't they just be forward with the whole thing. Yes we get paid in a certain currency. This is how our economy works.

Either money use absolutely exists among humans or it is completely non existent.

 

[T'Girl]

Doesn't mean it doesn't work, just that it is beyond our understanding.

I sorry, but what do you mean by "beyond our understanding?"

If it's a fictional economic system, then like the fictional warp drive make something up and explain it, or compare it to a existing real system if that what TPTB desired. It being beyond our understanding, it not like they have to go into exacting detail, that's not required. Just something basic.

Can you imagine if they started writing a large number of scene using econobabble instead of technobabble?

Well, it wouldn't require a large number, A couple clear references would be fine, then be consistent about it.

It would be like consistently referring to Sisko as "Sisko," they seem to manage that just fine.

Usually they go and speak and the replicator makes what they want, no ID, code or deduction from the person's 'account' or rations.

Voice print identification. You get what you ordered, your "account" gets deducted.

 

[Ithekro]

Just something basic.

They don't have money. That is pretty basic.


By the late 23rd and into the 24th century that seems to be the case. Humans (on Earth at least) have no cause for need. Poverty does not exist. The basic needs are provided or easily obtained. There does not appear to be any shortage of energy for Earth, be that solar power, hydro plants, fusion reactors, or antimatter reactors is not needed information. Earth humans don't have any basic needs that are unfulfilled. For whatever reason humans on Earth do not have a need to accumulate wealth. They see no reason for it.


We can't understand this because it goes against how we see the world. We have needs. Gaining wealth even in small amounts leads to a better life on Earth today. Not everything is provided for us and we see suffering caused by both the lack of necessities and greed to acquire wealth. We seem to be incapable of imagining a society were one does not use currency or barter for transactions of good and services. We cannot imagine a world were people world just do things, even serving tables, just because they want to do so, without any known form of compensation in currency. Yet that is what is presented to us for Earth in later versions of Star Trek. I don't recall seeing anyone pay for their meals at Sisko's place in New Orleans. And yet they still get food. Sisko has staff and make supposedly the best food in the city. How does all this happen without material compensation? We don't know. Yet the authors would have us believe that this is the case.

Many do not or will not accept this as fact or even possible. But that is what we are told Earth at the least is like by the 24th century, and now in the new alternate universe, the 23rd century. An author or creator came up with an idea that we cannot reconcile because it is impossible for use to figure out how to make such a thing work. So it is not brought up often because we cannot fathom it (much like the authors cannot fathom how it works. They just accept that it is.)

(Didn't someone say that the beauty of TOS was that they didn't explain everyday things. The characters treated it as if it whatever it was common knowledge to them so they didn't question it or even ask about things. The characters acting like that is just how it is without needing to explain stuff to each other, even if the audience has no clue what it is. The audience is just suppose to accept whatever it is works or is true because the character do.)

 

[T'Girl]

Just something basic.

They don't have money. That is pretty basic.

The majority of the time they do, the "no money" references are the exception, the "yes money" the majority. Most of the time it doesn't come up, but when there's a direct reference we hear about there being some kind of monetary system in play.

Janeway and the lamp.

 

[Ithekro]

Janeway and the lamp.

I don't know this one. If it was the last season or two of Voyager I probably missed it due to the shifting of UPN from analog to digital channels. It was harder to find them on satellite feeds and we didn't get UPN over the antenna due to hills. Had this issue with Enterprise the first year as well until we finally sorted it out with a new system.

 

[The Wormhole]

Based on Enterprise and Deep Sapce Nine, I'd place the Eugenics Wars at after First Contact.

"Based on Enterprise and DS9?" Ron Moore already admitted he made a mistake dating the Eugenics War in DS9, while Enterprise specifically stated the Eugenics War actually took place in the twentieth century. Kind of hard to re-interpret that.

 

[Nightdiamond]

Perhaps I should use the Guardian of Forever to simply change things to my personal canon. Problem solved.

Anything--as long as they talk about. The curiosity is maddening lol

Yeah, but it was like that on Voyager too, despite the fact they really were using replicator rations.

There is a politician that is proposing that people on food stamps shouldn't be allowed to buy things like soft drinks, sea foods,cookies steak.

So the idea is that people on welfare have no motivation to work if they can get all of this for free.

But does this sound cruel and excessive?

I've read an idea somewhere about how a replicator based economy where there is no poverty might work;

People with no jobs can still get the bare minimum from a replicator-- simple nutritious meals at certain times of the day only-- very simple clothing--to make sure that they're fed and clothed.

But if you want the cake, steak, fine wine, junk food, the luxurious stuff--you have to work and pay into the system so the replicator will allow it.

But then wouldn't this be considered just as cruel for the ideal Trek society that were used to?

 

[Kemaiku]

I like to think the replicator rations work by the amount of energy needed to made the item per 24 hours rather than anything else, that being the problem in the first place.

So if it costs say 2 terrawatts to make whatever you want for the next week, go for it, if you waste that, too bad.

 

[Pauln6]

I like to think the replicator rations work by the amount of energy needed to made the item per 24 hours rather than anything else, that being the problem in the first place.

So if it costs say 2 terrawatts to make whatever you want for the next week, go for it, if you waste that, too bad.

Yup - it's why Troi only had 3 outfits - she blew all her rations on chocolate.

 

[robau]

I like to think the replicator rations work by the amount of energy needed to made the item per 24 hours rather than anything else, that being the problem in the first place.

So if it costs say 2 terrawatts to make whatever you want for the next week, go for it, if you waste that, too bad.

Agreed. It's still effectively money, just not in the way we understand it. It's also not something that can be amassed to one person.

 

[Mjolnir2000]

I like to think the replicator rations work by the amount of energy needed to made the item per 24 hours rather than anything else, that being the problem in the first place.

So if it costs say 2 terrawatts to make whatever you want for the next week, go for it, if you waste that, too bad.

Agreed. It's still effectively money, just not in the way we understand it. It's also not something that can be amassed to one person.

Are food stamps money?

 

[The Wormhole]

Perhaps I should use the Guardian of Forever to simply change things to my personal canon. Problem solved.

Anything--as long as they talk about. The curiosity is maddening lol

Yeah, but it was like that on Voyager too, despite the fact they really were using replicator rations.

There is a politician that is proposing that people on food stamps shouldn't be allowed to buy things like soft drinks, sea foods,cookies steak.

So the idea is that people on welfare have no motivation to work if they can get all of this for free.

But does this sound cruel and excessive?

I've read an idea somewhere about how a replicator based economy where there is no poverty might work;

People with no jobs can still get the bare minimum from a replicator-- simple nutritious meals at certain times of the day only-- very simple clothing--to make sure that they're fed and clothed.

But if you want the cake, steak, fine wine, junk food, the luxurious stuff--you have to work and pay into the system so the replicator will allow it.

But then wouldn't this be considered just as cruel for the ideal Trek society that were used to?

I don't think Federation society is like that, it's just something done within Starfleet, kind of like how militaries tend to discourage any kind of extravagant lifestyles while you're deployed or something. You know, you're all in this together sort of thing, with the use of replicator rations used mainly for morale purposes.

 

[robau]

I like to think the replicator rations work by the amount of energy needed to made the item per 24 hours rather than anything else, that being the problem in the first place.

So if it costs say 2 terrawatts to make whatever you want for the next week, go for it, if you waste that, too bad.

Agreed. It's still effectively money, just not in the way we understand it. It's also not something that can be amassed to one person.

Are food stamps money?

Aye.

 

[Ithekro]

If I recall, replicator rations were only used on Voyager because they were (mostly) alone in over 70 years from Federation space. Conserving power at least somewhat. I don't recall seeing this used by other units in Starfleet nor on Federation planets. So this was not the standard economy. Just something on USS Voyager.

 

[Kemaiku]

I was only referencing Voyager myself when I posted that. They likely calculated how much energy they could alot to the replicators over time and rationed that out over the whole crew.

But where colonies, less advanced or deep space assignment vessels, etc are concerned, they might do something similar.

There are a lot of ways to control the flow, production, etc of materials and goods without there being money, or any of those things being related to one another to create an economy around it.

 

[T'Girl]

I'd place the Eugenics Wars at after First Contact.

From one of Archer's stories (about his grandfather) it's possible there was a second separate war referred to as the eugenics war, which was in the later 2000's. I personal consider the supermen and the augments to be unrelated different groups.

Spoiler: comics

Seriously though, I think they were just tying it into the nuclear wasteland from FC. We know the U.S. got nuked at some point

What "nuclear wasteland from FC?" It's pretty obvious that the missile base shown in FC was never hit and Cochrane was able to travel by train. Also, there are present day buildings in San Fransisco still standing in the 23rd century, and DS9 went there in the 2020's. The city visited by Archer and T'Pol seemed intact.

Janeway and the lamp.

I don't know this one.

Janeway told a story about she and Tuvok out shopping one day, Tuvok bought a lamp from a Vulcan priest, the priest wanted a higher price because they were in uniform.

There is a politician that is proposing that people on food stamps shouldn't be allowed to buy things like soft drinks, sea foods,cookies steak.

We had something like that here, where the politicians didn't want state assistance going to alcohol, cigarettes or marijuana.

But does this sound cruel and excessive?

No.

People with no jobs can still get the bare minimum from a replicator-- simple nutritious meals at certain times of the day only-- very simple clothing--to make sure that they're fed and clothed.

Should also get basic shelter someplace, but they would have to share if it was being provided to them.

I don't think Federation society is like that.

YMMV.

Are food stamps money?

EBT cards are just like those anonymous credit/debt cards you buy at the grocery store, you load value into them and they're a form of money.

If I recall, replicator rations were only used on Voyager because they were (mostly) alone in over 70 years from Federation space.

This was my impression too, a way of rationing a limited resource in a unusual situation.

That said I do think that Starfleet officers likely have to pay for their replicator use and in places like TenForward (the way naval officers pay for meals and what-not aboard ships). Certainly civilians in general society would pay for their replicator use, and other purchases.

But where colonies, less advanced or deep space assignment vessels, etc are concerned, they might do something similar.

The replicator use aboard other ships would probably be less restrictive than aboard Voyager, unless they were temporarily in a similar situation. Not so much "rationing," as sensible guidelines of use.

We saw in the episode The Child that replicators can consume large amounts of power, in the case of The Child, heavy replicator use prevented the ship from going to warp.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Spoiler: comics

Seriously though, I think they were just tying it into the nuclear wasteland from FC. We know the U.S. got nuked at some point

What "nuclear wasteland from FC?" It's pretty obvious that the missile base shown in FC was never hit and Cochrane was able to travel by train. Also, there are present day buildings in San Fransisco still standing in the 23rd century, and DS9 went there in the 2020's. The city visited by Archer and T'Pol seemed intact.

Indeed. It would take hundreds of years to completely rebuild a major city from scratch. There's no way they could have rebuilt places like San Francisco, New York City (which was mentioned in ENT - Trip Tucker has been there), London or Paris in only a hundred years. Hell, it takes a decade or more just to construct one building - and that's when you still have an industrial base left to build it WITH, which of course would not exist after a major nuclear war.

 

[Kemaiku]

Nuclear strikes would have been directed to impact military facilities first and foremost, airblast EMP'ing cities with altitude detonations second, leaving population centers intact.

We don't know how those 600 million died, starvation, disease, radiation, street violence etc.

 

[T'Girl]

Nuclear strikes would have been directed to impact military facilities first and foremost ...

Yet Cochrane was "at a missile complex in central Montana," a very obvious military target. The forest surrounding Cochrane's silo shows no signs of having been knocked over, stripped of it's foliage or burned ten years before. None of the living trees should be more than twenty feet tall, and they would be sparse.

airblast EMP'ing cities with altitude detonations second, leaving population centers intact.

San Fransisco is one of five major ports on America's west coast, the bay side of the city would be directly hit, not high altitude EMP'ed. An EMP wouldn't destroy the port facilities, or the rail lines, or the tank farms.

 

[Kemaiku]

The Montana facility held old Titan II class ICBM's, those are considered pretty old even today, by the early 2050's the silo could even be manned by only the most minimal of personnel and not be up to full launch ability.

Either no threat at all or so slow/unlikely to respond that taking it out would be unnecesary. The military contingent probably fled during the initial attacks and left it abandoned.