Odo and Kira

[DevilEyes]

Co-signing everything that flemm wrote.

I think they were so "in the box" in their thinking that it didn't even occur to them that Odo probably wouldn't have what humans consider to be romantic or sexual impulses toward humanoids. I mean Odo only takes the form of a male humanoid for convenience-that's not actually what he is at all. He has no specific form or gender. It'd be just as logical for him to be attracted to a male of a species or an animal.

Another example of not really thinking the whole IDIC thing through-just because Odo looks like a male, he MUST try to pair off with a member of what looks like the opposite gender.

But there is another way to look at it. I like to say that Odo's character is in some ways the most positive message on LGBT themes Trek has ever produced.

What? Don't look at me like that. I am serious. Yeah, the writers did it inadvertently, since I doubt that they ever had that in mind, or that they ever considered the implications. But the implications are still there, if one decides to see things in that light. Odo can be seen as a transgender person. The Founders have no biological sex to start with, but they are able to assume both the gender, and the physical sex they choose to. Odo's gender identity was constructed, as a combination of choice and influence of the environment/upbringing (his emulation of Dr. Mora), yet nobody ever questions his male gender identity. Even despite the fact that his physical sex is fluid, and that he could physically 'become' female, or hermaphrodite, or non-defined, any moment he chose to, and shape his body accordingly. In treating Odo as a male, everyone on the show is basically acknowledging the right of an individual to choose their gender.

If your argument is that this was more of a platonic love, then there was no reason for him to try to advance the relationship beyond the "very good friends" vibe they had going in early seasons.

Odo might have first realized that he was interested in more than "very good friendship" when Kira was telling him about her love for Bareil. Prior to this, he used to say he didn't understand the solid need for romantic/sexual coupling. But seeing Kira in one such relationship and witnessing the strength of her feelings for her lover might have made him wish he could have this, as it would put his closeness and intimacy with Kira on another level. Physical desire doesn't need to be the origin of romantic love.

But the examples of the "Chimera" episode and the female changeling kind of prove my point. Basically sexual or romantic attraction are ways to ensure reproduction of the species.(Huge disclaimer: I am NOT saying that this is the ONLY reason one should get into a relationship. Heterosexual relationships that don't produce children and gay relationships are not in any way "abnormal," I'm just saying that the BIOLOGICAL reason for the feelings of "attraction" are to encourage reproduction)

And you've just contradicted yourself, because if the only reason for sexual, and, by extension, romantic attraction is to encourage reproduction - then an attraction to the same sex would not exist (or, for that matter, sex and desire in a female post-menopause; or especially strong sexual drive in a woman who is in PMS or menstruating, when conception is least probable, and so on) or we'd be dangerously close to the idea that it's a "mistake of nature". The argument that attraction is primarily based on reproduction leads to a very shaky ground.

 

[sonak]

See what you did there?

You just deliberately inserted the word "only" into my argument when I didn't use that word. In fact, my "disclaimer" explicitly says I didn't mean only.

At any rate, I didn't mean for this to get into a tangent about the origins of biological attraction and the feasibility of humanoid-changeling relationships.

I meant to express that I never saw any indication in the first few seasons that Odo had any interest in or desire for romantic relationships, in fact as mentioned above, this was one of the areas of human behavior he'd expressed disdain for on previous occasions.

Now you can say this was an area of his personality that "evolved" or something after years on the station and more interaction with humanoids, but he'd already known Kira for a long time, it seems kind of out of nowhere that he suddenly developed romantic feelings for her.

 

[flemm]

See what you did there?

You just deliberately inserted the word "only" into my argument when I didn't use that word. In fact, my "disclaimer" explicitly says I didn't mean only.

It's all good. I understand that you are not saying that sexual reproduction is the only motivating factor for romantic relationships (and I think DevilEyes sees that as well), but nonetheless, it remains problematic to assert that Odo should not/would not be interested in romantic involvement with a solid because "Basically sexual or romantic attraction are ways to ensure reproduction of the species."

From what we can tell from reality, a need for love and intimacy is part of sentience. Doubtless, like sentience itself, these needs evolved due to basic biological imperatives, such as the need to survive and reproduce, but clearly, once sentience has evolved, these needs no longer exist only to fulfill those basic imperatives, at least not in any immediately obvious way.

So, at any rate, these are interesting questions, and fiction's job is not really to resolve them, but to raise them. Where Odo is concerned, I think the DS9 writers accomplished that quite successfully.

I meant to express that I never saw any indication in the first few seasons that Odo had any interest in or desire for romantic relationships, in fact as mentioned above, this was one of the areas of human behavior he'd expressed disdain for on previous occasions.

Now you can say this was an area of his personality that "evolved" or something after years on the station and more interaction with humanoids, but he'd already known Kira for a long time, it seems kind of out of nowhere that he suddenly developed romantic feelings for her.

I don't know... I think, on the contrary, Odo's romantic feelings are developed quite consistently from season two onward (at the latest). In her reviews that were written when the show was originally aired, Michele Erika Green is already talking about Odo being in love with Kira in Duet (where indeed, the depth of Odo's feeling is quite plain). That is season 1. Early in season 2, Necessary Evil definitely toys with the idea. Naturally Odo still scoffs at the thought of "humanoid mating rituals," but it is increasingly obvious that this is a façade. Heart of Stone in season 3 is explicit on the subject, and of course Odo is in full-blown adolescent romantic angst in season four's Crossfire. So Odo's attraction to Kira is referenced pretty much non-stop for the majority of the show's run, and it unfolds pretty smoothly and steadily, as does Odo's interest in "solid intimacy" overall. He has a sort of initiation in season five's A Simple Investigation, and of course he instructs the FC in the ways of "solid intimacy" in season six's Behind the Lines.

This aspect of Odo's character arc was probably dealt with more often and in more detail than any other aspect of the character, partly because Echevarria was obviously quite fascinated with the various questions surrounding Odo's fluid identity.

A classic example of why I like DS9. What could have been mainly a special effects gimmick (Odo's shape-shifting) is instead used primarily as a way to talk about emotional, psychological, social, and even philosophical issues.

 

[Nightdiamond]

I think the Odo and Kira relationship came so late in the series, with so many other things going on, that it was hard to catch on with some of the viewers.

The show was winding down when they had just became in item, and ended with Odo leaving Kira to spend time in the great link.

Although the show did well with portraying them as close with a close history together.



Sometimes it does seem as if Trek episodes will pair a female actor with the next available male actor, just to have them pair...

I remember the show suggesting that Kira seemed to have something with Tom Riker-Will Riker's double. Even in that short time that he appeared in the entire series.

They even kissed at the end of the show.

 

[flemm]

Sometimes it does seem as if Trek episodes will pair a female actor with the next available male actor, just to have them pair...

But don't they do this with male actors as well?

Sisko starts out as traumatized by his wife's death, has a sort of one-episode romance in season 2, then gets involved with Kassidy.

Worf was paired up with Jadzia not long after he joined the show.

Bashir has a whole series of hook-ups and love interests, and ends up with Ezri.

Odo is of course in love with Kira, but he also has liaisons with the FC and whatever the character's name was in A Simple Investigation. And then there is Laas.

Miles is married. Even Quark has a love interest or two, and is in love with Jadzia. Basically everyone on DS9 is in and out of various romantic entanglements and is "paired up" in one way or another, not to mention the O'Brien-Bashir bromance.

 

[vas2009]

Odo/Kira is what got me started with Star Trek. I loved the two characters together from beginning to end.

When I was younger I hated that Odo left but as I got older I have come to understand it.

I loved Heart of Stone. It was Odo's confession and his reality check.

I love the "first kiss" in His Way. On the Promenade in front of everyone arguing... Then I suppose you'll wanna kiss me... well who needs dinner ...The best ever.

I always wanted to see a little more but all and all the relationship was nicley done.

 

[Joshonator]

I thought the way Vic Fontaine brought them together was done brilliantly, that was easily one of my favourite episodes in the show.

 

[DS9 Gal AZ]

I thought the way Vic Fontaine brought them together was done brilliantly, that was easily one of my favourite episodes in the show.

Funny how far opinions can very. I loved Odo/Kira and throughout the series was rooting for them to get together romantically. I HATED the fact that Vic, the most annoying holo-character ever, was used to facilitate their romance. Blech! Oh well, to each their own.

 

[Joshonator]

I thought the way Vic Fontaine brought them together was done brilliantly, that was easily one of my favourite episodes in the show.

Funny how far opinions can very. I loved Odo/Kira and throughout the series was rooting for them to get together romantically. I HATED the fact that Vic, the most annoying holo-character ever, was used to facilitate their romance. Blech! Oh well, to each their own.

I guess you didn't like his singing.

 

[DS9 Gal AZ]

I thought the way Vic Fontaine brought them together was done brilliantly, that was easily one of my favourite episodes in the show.

Funny how far opinions can very. I loved Odo/Kira and throughout the series was rooting for them to get together romantically. I HATED the fact that Vic, the most annoying holo-character ever, was used to facilitate their romance. Blech! Oh well, to each their own.

I guess you didn't like his singing.

I'm not a huge fan of the style or the era. I will concede that he had a nice voice, but I found him a bit too ... cheesy? And later, I resented the fact that Vic's holo-club started to take the place of Quark's, where everyone had hung out since season one. Plus, it seemed like every time the writers couldn't be arsed to write another scene they just threw in a random "Vic sings a song! Oh boy!" moment...

aaand this rapidly degenerating into a list of reasons I don't like Vic, which is not what this thread is about. Sorry.

But anyway, big fan of the Odo/Kira ship. I enjoyed their friendship, and their transition from friends to lovers.

 

[Nightdiamond]

duplicate post

 

[Nightdiamond]

Sometimes it does seem as if Trek episodes will pair a female actor with the next available male actor, just to have them pair...

But don't they do this with male actors as well?

Sisko starts out as traumatized by his wife's death, has a sort of one-episode romance in season 2, then gets involved with Kassidy.

Worf was paired up with Jadzia not long after he joined the show.

Bashir has a whole series of hook-ups and love interests, and ends up with Ezri.

Odo is of course in love with Kira, but he also has liaisons with the FC and whatever the character's name was in A Simple Investigation. And then there is Laas.

Miles is married. Even Quark has a love interest or two, and is in love with Jadzia. Basically everyone on DS9 is in and out of various romantic entanglements and is "paired up" in one way or another, not to mention the O'Brien-Bashir bromance.

It's true, the male characters also have short term relationships. Quark probably takes the prize.



When I looked at "The Defiant", I always wondered why Kira seemed to have something going on with Riker and why they shared a kiss at the end of the episode.

It seemed rather strange when you think about it.

Strange, because, wasn't she seriously involved with Vedec Bareil at this time?

And she appeared to enjoy the kiss!

It seemed as if they had to be paired even if briefly just for that episode.

Kira to me, doesn't seem like the type that's into flings. It seemed like quick pairing just for drama.

Then another strange thing that I noticed is that throughout trek almost all the major characters are generally single.

Nobody comes into the show already in a relationship or married. Except for Voyager which solves that problem pretty quickly.

Even Obrien started out single, (but you got to start somewhere.)

 

[kirsten187]

I love Vic too. I love how he called Kira "dollface" at one point.

I thought the way Vic Fontaine brought them together was done brilliantly, that was easily one of my favourite episodes in the show.

 

[Joshonator]

I have Jame's Darren's album playing in my car all the time

 

[Galileo7]

I think all of these characters developmenting made DS9 that much better a Star trek saga.