Odo and Kira

[TheLobes]

I was reading the Memory Alpha entry for 'Children of Time', and was quite pleased to read:

'Neither Nana Visitor nor Rene Auberjonois were overly happy with how their characters were written in this episode. According to Visitor, "I'm not a huge fan of that whole romantic storyline. I think it's much more interesting to have a real deep friendship without it becoming physical. I would have liked Odo and Kira to stay like that. I did think this episode was brilliant. But it isn't one of my favorites, because I just wasn't crazy about my part in it.'

Id always thought this too. Dont get me wrong, I didnt exactly mind that Kira and Odo ended up being together, but I cant help agreeing with Nana that it might have been better to keep it a really deep friendship. I think one of the big failings of modern trek (TNG onwards) was that the writers never seemed to just let a female character into the story without eventually making her get with someone. Obviously this worked sometimes, but a few of the relationships just seemed forced, especially Ezri and Bashir.

I think it would have made Odo and Kira stronger if they had just had a really firm 'band of brothers' type friendship, solidified by being in a lot of tough spots together, a lot like the friendship which developed between Spock and Kirk. This is especially true in the later episodes where the two are on Cardassia.

What do you think?

 

[DevilEyes]

I was reading the Memory Alpha entry for 'Children of Time', and was quite pleased to read:

'Neither Nana Visitor nor Rene Auberjonois were overly happy with how their characters were written in this episode. According to Visitor, "I'm not a huge fan of that whole romantic storyline. I think it's much more interesting to have a real deep friendship without it becoming physical. I would have liked Odo and Kira to stay like that. I did think this episode was brilliant. But it isn't one of my favorites, because I just wasn't crazy about my part in it.'

She later said she changed her opinion because she liked the way that the relationship was handled in season 7. (Which I agree on.)

She also liked that they didn't end up together, because she thought it wouldn't be realistic for two such different beings, and because she didn't want Kira and Odo to become a corny happy couple of the station.

 

[DS9 Gal AZ]

I was a big Odo/Kira shipper. I basically wanted them together since the first season. I think the best, most lasting romances are frequently rooted in friendship (this may have something to do with the fact that my parents started out as "just friends" and are two children and almost 40 years later are still happily married). I think they took their time putting the two characters together and once they got romantical they dealt with the romance well. There was conflict as well as tenderness, they didn't let it get too schmoopy. Besides, after the almost-but-not-quite romances Trek has put me through, such as Picard/Crusher and Janeway/Chakotay, I was more than ready to see a couple actually get together after years of "will they or won't they" suspense, even if they were apart in the end.

 

[TheLobes]

She later said she changed her opinion because she liked the way that the relationship was handled in season 7. (Which I agree on.)

What part of the way the relationship was handled in season 7 did you enjoy?

 

[flemm]

I think the writers took a big risk bringing Odo and Kira together, for a number of different reasons. For one, their complicated friendship and Odo's romantic angst worked very well through the first five seasons for both characters. For another, romance has a very underwhelming history in Trek: basically, it never produces more than mediocrity, including DS9's main prior attempt at an on-going relationship between main cast members (Dax and Worf). Then we can add to that the fact that both Nana Visitor and Rene Auberjonois thought it would be a bad idea, and you can tell that their hearts aren't really in it at first. So, yeah, there wasn't much reason to believe this would produce anything special, and at first it doesn't.

Then Rene Echevarria wrote Chimera, which is a masterpiece, and from there on out, you can tell that the actors believe in it, and the writers have no trouble making it work, especially in the final arc. So, I think the odds were stacked against it, but it ended up being a great choice that produced some of season seven's best material. It is easily Trek's most successful romantic storyline. Granted, that's not saying much, but it holds up quite well against tougher competition (meaning love stories in popular entertainment outside of Trek). It is unusual in that it is about something other than the couple's immediate attraction to one another, or their desire to get married/get laid/get divorced/get back together or some other standard relationship "issue."

Beginning with Chimera, one can actually compare Kira/Odo to some of the love stories of mythology and folklore as far as layers of meaning are concerned. It's beauty of the soul versus physical beauty/prejudice versus acceptance/transcendant love versus limitations of the flesh, etc. Thematically speaking, there is so much going on that it's hard to believe it's Star Trek, which normally doesn't get beyond the most stale of clichés as far as love stories are concerned.

Granted, the nexus for all of this is Chimera, and if Rene Echevarria had not written that episode, then I doubt the relationship would have ever risen above the mundane. That said, it didn't exactly materialize out of nowhere either. Echevarria also wrote a lot of the important Kira/Odo material from earlier seasons (especially Odo), including as I recall: Crossfire, Behind the Lines and Children of Time. Chimera is the culmination of Echevarria's excellent work on these characters over the course of many episodes and many seasons.

 

[od0_ital]

The only good ship is an O/K 'ship!

 

[TheLobes]

Granted, the nexus for all of this is Chimera, and if Rene Echevarria had not written that episode, then I doubt the relationship would have ever risen above the mundane. That said, it didn't exactly materialize out of nowhere either. Echevarria also wrote a lot of the important Kira/Odo material from earlier seasons (especially Odo), including as I recall: Crossfire, Behind the Lines and Children of Time. Chimera is the culmination of Echevarria's excellent work on these characters over the course of many episodes and many seasons.

See I totally disagree with that, I much prefered Crossfire to Chimera in terms of the Odo/Kira relationship. While I think Chimera is a great episode, I just dont like the idea that the reason Odo stays on DS9 is his love for Kira. That just kind of screws with Odo's character for me, his whole character is about justice and doing the right thing and not giving in to temptations, but now it isnt his sense of right and wrong which is keeping him from joining the founders, but merely the fact that he is in love with someone. The idea of someone making a great sacrifice for love is interesting, but I felt it was misplaced here, it makes Odo seem a bit wishy-washy. I feel Chimera would have been better if it was about Odo's relationship with the whole of DS9, rather than specifically with Kira, especially since they were heading into the ten episode finale. One of the biggest problems with seasons 7, as far as Im concerned, is that there is very little bonding between the crew, and it all seems a bit fractured.

 

[neogothboy74]

I was one of those people that longed to see Odo / Kira together and I thought they handled it beautifully, and Chimera was a wonderful episode...Kira lets Odo go, which is a perfect reason to stay with her. And they don't end up together, which I also like. It works for me.

Worf / Jadzia worked for me to a point; they were certainly well matched in Star Trek terms, and it felt natural that they'd pair up, yet it doesn't seem to measure up against real relationships the way that I think Kira & Odo do. And I also liked that they explored Ezri / Worf; not because I think they make a great couple, but just because it was much more satisfying for them to explore it and move on then if they'd just ignored it. Maybe that's why I like the Kira / Odo pairing too...at some point if they hadn't gotten together it would have felt dishonest...but then coming together for awhile and then parting seems far more realistic to me.

Having said all that, I think in retrospect, my favorite Trek couple is Sisko / Yates.

Ezri / Bashir, while an interesting pairing, feels rushed and I didn't quite buy into it. And I'm glad that in the books they've separated. I like both characters, but together they feel a bit off. That's just my opinion of course.

 

[flemm]

See I totally disagree with that, I much prefered Crossfire to Chimera in terms of the Odo/Kira relationship.

Well, Crossfire is a good character episode for Odo, but he is at his most "wishy-washy" here. Not that that is a bad thing. As Quark implies at the end, it is an important step for Odo's character that he is able to feel that kind of overpowering emotion.

While I think Chimera is a great episode, I just dont like the idea that the reason Odo stays on DS9 is his love for Kira.

Odo's desire to return to his people has always been a major driving force for the character, so there has to be something equally powerful holding him back. That's especially true because the Link is portrayed as almost overwhelming. In Behind the Lines, Odo loses track of time in the Link, forgets his commitment to the resistance cell, and even his love for Kira, all because he is in the Link. It's ineffable, like some sort of deep meditative trance.

That's not to say that the rest of the people on DS9 are meaningless to Odo, but his desire to be loved as an individual is what is keeping him from giving up the utter contentment and satisfaction of the Link, not exchanging barbs with Quark or hanging out with Bashir and O'Brien.

That just kind of screws with Odo's character for me, his whole character is about justice and doing the right thing and not giving in to temptations...

His whole character wasn't about that, though, or at least hadn't been since early season 2. In Necessary Evil, for example: "Justice, as the humans say, is blind. I used to believe that."

Odo is conflicted. He cares about justice, of course: he is a moral individual. But he also wants love, a home, to be accepted, to be at peace. That he wants all these things but can't have them all without sacrifice is what makes him a complete character.

Honestly, as early as the pilot, Odo is portrayed as desperate to find out more about his origins, so I don't think his character was ever about justice primarily. He talks about his sense of justice as his only clue to what his people are like (in the early seasons). With Odo, it's always been about the quest for a home, metaphorically and literally speaking. As in Chimera: "I know where I belong."

If you could sum Odo up by saying, "He cares about justice," then he would be a one-dimensional archetype, not much of a character.

 

[TheLobes]

Odo's desire to return to his people has always been a major driving force for the character, so there has to be something equally powerful holding him back.

This is the problem for me, I never really felt a great deal of love between Odo and Kira. I agree with what you say about his desire to return to the link, but I think the conflict should have been more due to his dissatisfaction with how the founders conducted themselves than because of his desire to be with Kira. I just didnt feel the love between them. With Keiko and Miles, you can tell they really love each other, but I felt the greatest bond between Odo and Kira was one of respect, they seemed to respect each other a lot more than love each other. Thats why I think it would have been better to keep it a deep friendship, i just dont think it was necessary for the two of them to get together, especially since they were together for so short a time.

 

[flemm]

Thats why I think it would have been better to keep it a deep friendship, i just dont think it was necessary for the two of them to get together, especially since they were together for so short a time.

That's cool. I mean, I'm not really trying to change your mind, but rather to present another viewpoint.

The mutual respect angle definitely worked, but that ship had pretty much sailed by season three at the latest. By the time Odo spills his guts to the FC in Heart of Stone, it's already clear there's an unrequited love thing happening there.

 

[TheLobes]

The mutual respect angle definitely worked, but that ship had pretty much sailed by season three at the latest. By the time Odo spills his guts to the FC in Heart of Stone, it's already clear there's an unrequited love thing happening there.

I think thats true, I really liked those episodes which were about Odo's unrequited love for Kira, so I'd say if I could go back and rewrite the series I would have simply never had Odo tell Kira, or tell her and not have the love reciprocated. The lack of love I feel comes more from Kira than Odo, not that I'm criticising Nana Visitor, I just dont understand why Kira would be romantically attracted to Odo. It just felt a bit too 'tv' when they did get together, especially with all the other couples.

 

[sonak]

I think they were so "in the box" in their thinking that it didn't even occur to them that Odo probably wouldn't have what humans consider to be romantic or sexual impulses toward humanoids. I mean Odo only takes the form of a male humanoid for convenience-that's not actually what he is at all. He has no specific form or gender. It'd be just as logical for him to be attracted to a male of a species or an animal.

If your argument is that this was more of a platonic love, then there was no reason for him to try to advance the relationship beyond the "very good friends" vibe they had going in early seasons.

Another example of not really thinking the whole IDIC thing through-just because Odo looks like a male, he MUST try to pair off with a member of what looks like the opposite gender.

 

[neogothboy74]

I think they were so "in the box" in their thinking that it didn't even occur to them that Odo probably wouldn't have what humans consider to be romantic or sexual impulses toward humanoids. I mean Odo only takes the form of a male humanoid for convenience-that's not actually what he is at all. He has no specific form or gender. It'd be just as logical for him to be attracted to a male of a species or an animal.

But when Odo is in the form of a man, he is a man. 'To become a thing is to know a thing' or something like that, is what the head founder person tells him in 'The Search, Part II', and I think you're right that he could be attracted to whatever, but it just so happened that he was attracted to Kira.

If your argument is that this was more of a platonic love, then there was no reason for him to try to advance the relationship beyond the "very good friends" vibe they had going in early seasons.

Another example of not really thinking the whole IDIC thing through-just because Odo looks like a male, he MUST try to pair off with a member of what looks like the opposite gender.

I see what you're saying and I agree with you to a point, except I don't think they say that though. They might not oppose that view so much in earlier seasons but they don't state it outright either. It could just as easily be interpreted that Odo, at this point in his life is exploring hetero options. But when you watch 'Chimera' and he links with Laas, who is also in the form of a seemingly male huminoid, the episode doesn't seem to preclude an erotic aspect to the link - just as they don't with the seemingly female founder. They even comment on it when Quark says it's not a good time to see a Changeling Pride Parade on the Promenade. As a gay fan, Chimera really touched me because it's about Odo wanting to be what he really is and people saying they don't want to see that...except that Kira does want to see him as he really is and loves him for that. I thought it was rather profound.

 

[sonak]

But the examples of the "Chimera" episode and the female changeling kind of prove my point. Basically sexual or romantic attraction are ways to ensure reproduction of the species.(Huge disclaimer: I am NOT saying that this is the ONLY reason one should get into a relationship. Heterosexual relationships that don't produce children and gay relationships are not in any way "abnormal," I'm just saying that the BIOLOGICAL reason for the feelings of "attraction" are to encourage reproduction)


So it makes more sense for Odo to be attracted to the female changeling or to find the great link to be a sexual experience, because he's with members of his own species. He's not only a different SPECIES from Kira, he's a vastly different kind of LIFEFORM. This would be something like a human being attracted to an insect.

 

[flemm]

Another example of not really thinking the whole IDIC thing through-just because Odo looks like a male, he MUST try to pair off with a member of what looks like the opposite gender.

The writers don't actually make that assumption. These issues are handled with the most nuance in Chimera (though they are raised or alluded to in other episodes).

Odo: Look at me, Nerys. What do see?

Kira: I see you.

Odo: No, no... This is just a form I borrowed. I could just as easily be someone or something else.

Kira: But this is what you have always chosen to be. A good and honest man. A man I fell in love with. Are you trying to tell me he never really existed?

Odo: I don't know.

Odo's predicament is not perfectly analagous to any single situation in the real world, but it has resonance with many aspects of human experience. Odo's identity is, quite literally, fluid. This is true of everyone to a greater or lesser extent. But just as we search for an identity, stability, something concrete that we call "our personality," "the self," Odo wants to experience life "as a solid," that is to say: "as a unique individual" with all the frailties and limitations that we experience.

But he also wants to transcend those limitations, feel a deeper connection to his people, to other people, to the person that he loves. Many human beings want those things, for one reason or another: transcendance, oneness, a feeling of unity with the world or with other people. That is part of what The Link represents.

Ultimately, Chimera is about love transcending all barriers: prejudice, alien difference, gender, even physical form. I want to know you, the way you really are. Not Odo as a male or as a humanoid or even as a changeling, just Odo, the self in its purest form.

I'm going to quote Michele Erika Green's comments on this ep and on the Odo/Kira relationship, because I really think she sums it up beautifully (emphasis added):

There's an eroticism about the Link which this episode did not shirk from, any more than it shirked from the sexual possibilities between Odo and the evidently male Laas, but despite the orgasmic imagery of the final bonding of Kira and Odo, this storyline definitely isn't about kinky alien sex. Odo does learn about physical transformation in "Chimera," but not on any base, bodily level. What he learns is that bodies don't matter; what matters is higher love, passion of the soul and the things people will do to accomodate it. It makes me weep, and I don't mean that just in a sappy love story sense - it's extraordinarily profound and beautiful, like the myth of Cupid and Psyche. Have I neglected to mention the powerful, subtle performances of Visitor and Auberjonois? The relationship between Kira and Odo exemplifies triumph over adversity, common ground over alien difference, future over past, Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations. It's pure Star Trek in every best possible way.

This would be something like a human being attracted to an insect.

I don't think that's analagous at all insofar as the insect is not a sentient being, has no feelings, cannot experience love, etc.

Now, of course, the Trek universe's treatment of aliens is absurd from a purely scientific point of view, but Odo and Kira being attracted to one another is no more ridiculous than a Klingon and a human, or a Cardassian and a Bajoran or whatever. If anything, it is less so because Odo as a changeling can become a Bajoran or a human, physically speaking.

The Founders were even able to give Odo human physiology, suggesting that it is within a changeling's capacity to become genetically compatible with humanoid races.

Beyond that, we desire sex, intimacy and love within the human species whether or not procreation is possible. Once we accept Trek's premise that there are multiple alien species with more or less the same conception of the self, it seems likely that they would potentially want to experience intimacy with one another.

At the end of the day, these alien races are a device that allows Trek to explore the human psyche and human society, as well as philosophical and moral questions. The changelings work very well from this point of view, but mainly because the writers' exploited Odo's double nature as a humanoid and as a changeling. It wouldn't have been very interesting if Odo had never shown any interest in humanoids or in being a humanoid to the fullest extent.

 

[sonak]

You're confusing Odo's desire for friendly companionship with Kira to biological attraction. I agree that he'd naturally seek out the former on DS9 and he already had such a relationship with Kira in early DS9. What I DON'T get is why he'd feel the need to, well to use a cliche "take it to the next level." Generally, that desire comes from a feeling of romantic attachment toward another individual.

They'd shown in other episodes that he doesn't need to eat, drink, or perform a lot of other human or humanoid biological functions. Why would he feel the need to have a physical relationship with a humanoid life-form? Again if this was a "soul-mate" thing, there was NO NEED to take it beyond the "best friends" vibe they already had going.

I kind of agreed with the female changeling in "heart of stone" when she pointed out that Odo wouldn't get the same kind of love from Kira as he would from the great link.

 

[flemm]

You're confusing Odo's desire for friendly companionship with Kira to biological attraction.

On the contrary, there is no such distinction. Everything we do, think and feel is biological: rooted in our physical being and evolutionary history. Sex, friendship, our sense of self, all of our needs and desires, from the most mundane to the most spiritual.

Similarly, love (or the desire for a soulmate, or however you want to put it) is not distinct from sexual desire, or at least, not necessarily. One can be a means of expressing the other. They are linked, doubtless on many levels, both biological and psychological.

Generally, that desire comes from a feeling of romantic attachment toward another individual.

Why would he feel the need to have a physical relationship with a humanoid life-form? Again if this was a "soul-mate" thing, there was NO NEED to take it beyond the "best friends" vibe they already had going.

One could ask the same question about the the need for friendship that you are asking about the need for a physical relationship. Both would have the same answer: Odo is a sentient being with a need for both physical and emotional intimacy. Doubtless these needs are rooted in the changelings' evolutionary history, just as they are with humans.

I could imagine an alien being without either need, but what would be the point? If Odo were happy living in a bucket for seven seasons, he would not be the great character that he is, who goes from being an "unknown sample" to a fully-realized individual.

I kind of agreed with the female changeling in "heart of stone" when she pointed out that Odo wouldn't get the same kind of love from Kira as he would from the great link.

That is the crux of Odo's conflicted emotions throughout the middle seasons. What makes it interesting, though, is that there are arguments to be made on both sides, both the Link and "intimacy with solids" have something to offer Odo, something that tempts him, something he needs. That conflict is the essence of the character.

 

[Pemmer Harge]

I was sceptical about it for a long time - I liked how they were in the first couple of seasons before the romance issue was brought up, I didn't like Heart of Stone or Crossfire and I thought the whole Kira/Shakaar relationship was a waste of time. His Way was OK, but it felt a bit corny and forced. However, Chimera changed everything. That episode really turned the relationship from another bog standard Trek romance into something interesting. Bottom line is, I don't care if a relationship between two such different species is "realistic" science fiction - to me it has the potential to be an interesting exploration of the nature of love and in Chimera it was.

Following that episode, I think the relationship was really well written and performed in the final chapter.

 

[kirsten187]

I always really liked Kira and Odo as a couple but, on the whole, I think I may just prefer them before they got together.