"Obeserver Effect": A Rebuke of the Prime Directive?

[-Brett-]

A few people who didn't even originate on the planet in question but were just lucky enough to get there first.

Kirk would probably argue that evicting the Baku would be -restoring- their natural evolution.

As a member of a species that routinely settles on worlds other than the one on which they originated, he'd be a pretty astonishing hypocrite for trying to make that argument.

 

[DonIago]

Howso?

The issue isn't that the Baku settled on the planet at all, it's that they might refuse to leave the planet knowing they would be responsible to some extent for the suffering of a multitude of people.

Kirk would only be a hypocrite if he supported human colonists' right to their planets in such a scenario.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

The issue isn't that the Baku settled on the planet at all, it's that they might refuse to leave the planet knowing they would be responsible to some extent for the suffering of a multitude of people.

And of course the Ba'ku would not be responsible for anything, since they are not obligated to sacrifice themselves for a "greater good".

Besides, there's no proof that the special radiation would work anywhere other than their home system anyway - so if they had been moved, it might have all been for nothing.

 

[T'Girl]

Besides, there's no proof that the special radiation would work anywhere other than their home system anyway - so if they had been moved, it might have all been for nothing.

Oh well.

Still, it would be better to harvest all the magic particles and do tests far away from the planet just to be sure. We wouldn't want a discovery like this just sit in orbit of a remote planet.

If it does prove out, just think of the fantastic good it could do.

And of course the Ba'ku would not be responsible for anything, since they are not obligated to sacrifice themselves for a "greater good".

And the Federation has no obligation to leave the particles where they are for the "Baku good."

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

And the Federation has no obligation to leave the particles where they are for the "Baku good."

Actually, yes they do. Even if the Ba'ku planet is within Federation territory (which, IIRC, is debatable), the Ba'ku themselves are not members of the Federation. So while the *space* might be part of the Federation, the planet itself is not, and thus the Federation has no jurisdiction there.

 

[DonIago]

This is why the Federation later declared war on the Baku.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

^Exactly.

We don't have any hard evidence that the events of INS ultimately changed anything.

Let's see Picard is still the captain of the Enterprise, and the cast doesn't look any younger in Nemesis.

Besides the movie ended with the federation council soon to be on the receiving end of a Picard speech, which nothing in the trekverse can resist (save evil clones and collectives run by the ultimate clingy ex-girlfriend).

A few people who didn't even originate on the planet in question but were just lucky enough to get there first.

Kirk would probably argue that evicting the Baku would be -restoring- their natural evolution.

Considering Kirk typical gives the impression he think the needs of the many thing is bullshit (which is what the argument in favor of relocation is), I doubt it. Especially after that time he was a kid and it was used to justify murdering 2000 people.

It is pretty messed up. If Insurrection has any merit at all, it's in outing the disturbing sense of authoritarianism and borderline fascism in Star Trek fandom.

I don't know? I think it's pretty disturbing that people think that something that can help billions should be allowed to be squatted on by a few people. Then those people don't even have to defend their property to keep it, they can just trick others into doing it for them.

No they just don't see why people who already live to mid 100s wanting to live to late 200s-mid 300s (yes thats generally what the main goal came off as) is a pressing enough issue to engage in imperialism.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

This is why the Federation later declared war on the Baku.

Of course if the Son'a have made up with their parents the federation might get its ass kicked.

- I mean the Briar Patch makes invading a pain.
- Subspace weapons need you to cripple your ship to not get destroyed, and it would only work once per ship.
- The federation is notoriously conflict averse (they signed a treaty to avoid war with the Cardassians and didn't even bother to try enforcing it, and tried to sell off a Bajoran Moon to the Romulans during the Dominion War despite Bajor being an independent system.)

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I think that subsequent entries in the novelverse have suggested that the Ba'ku later join the Federation, or at least become a protectorate of same.

 

[sonak]

And the Federation has no obligation to leave the particles where they are for the "Baku good."

Actually, yes they do. Even if the Ba'ku planet is within Federation territory (which, IIRC, is debatable), the Ba'ku themselves are not members of the Federation. So while the *space* might be part of the Federation, the planet itself is not, and thus the Federation has no jurisdiction there.

great!

So the Son'a are free to remove the Baku and the UFP shouldn't lift a finger in the dispute right?


(this is the part where the argument goes from "the Federation must not interfere!" to "the Federation must interfere to protect the Baku!")

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ IIRC, it's said in INS that the Son'a couldn't have done what they'd done without Dougherty's assistance. If they had, they'd never have made the deal in the first place.

We actually have no idea what happens after the Ba'ku join the UFP (if indeed they have, and I'm not just misremembering it). Although something tells me that the Federation won't force the issue with the special radiation anymore - that the fallout from Dougherty's actions would just be too severe.

Although it could also be that the Ba'ku would be grateful enough for being allowed Federation membership (and thus protection from the Son'a) that they might decide *on their own* to help out somehow in this regard.

 

[sonak]

^ IIRC, it's said in INS that the Son'a couldn't have done what they'd done without Dougherty's assistance. If they had, they'd never have made the deal in the first place.

We actually have no idea what happens after the Ba'ku join the UFP (if indeed they have, and I'm not just misremembering it). Although something tells me that the Federation won't force the issue with the special radiation anymore - that the fallout from Dougherty's actions would just be too severe.

Although it could also be that the Ba'ku would be grateful enough for being allowed Federation membership (and thus protection from the Son'a) that they might decide *on their own* to help out somehow in this regard.

that's stuff from beyond the movie. I just mean that given the scenario presented IN THE MOVIE, you can't simultaneously claim that (a) the Federation has no right to interfere and (b) that they have a DUTY to protect the Baku.

You want to make the case that the Baku property rights trump the medical benefits? That's a totally different case than saying that the Federation has to DEFEND that property at the cost of their own citizens.

 

[DonIago]

^^Perhaps by letting those most desperately in need of the radiation set up a small colony on the opposite side of the planet?

Something it's implied they weren't willing to do during the events of the film.

Then again, the film just makes a muddle of the situation anyway, which is what makes these discussions so self-perpetuating.

Hey, anyone remember when we were discussing "Observer Effect"?

 

[sonak]

^^Perhaps by letting those most desperately in need of the radiation set up a small colony on the opposite side of the planet?

Something it's implied they weren't willing to do during the events of the film.

Then again, the film just makes a muddle of the situation anyway, which is what makes these discussions so self-perpetuating.

Hey, anyone remember when we were discussing "Observer Effect"?

Yeah, I agree that there's no effective way to make sense of it because the film itself doesn't really do so. Possibly because the premise wasn't really meant to withstand much scrutiny, since it was mainly serving as an excuse to go "lighter and funnier" and make jokes about Klingon puberty and boobs.

We were discussing "Observer Effect?"

 

[-Brett-]

And the Federation has no obligation to leave the particles where they are for the "Baku good."

Actually, yes they do. Even if the Ba'ku planet is within Federation territory (which, IIRC, is debatable), the Ba'ku themselves are not members of the Federation. So while the *space* might be part of the Federation, the planet itself is not, and thus the Federation has no jurisdiction there.

great!

So the Son'a are free to remove the Baku and the UFP shouldn't lift a finger in the dispute right?

It's true. This, unlike the imperialist and generally Klingon like behavior many fans advocate, at least fits with what is established about the Federations policies and ideals. Turning a blind eye to some thug preying on the weak is its own brand of douchy, but it's better than doing so yourself.

Hey, anyone remember when we were discussing "Observer Effect"?

For all its many flaws, Insurrection is more interesting than some forgettable Enterprise episode.

 

[DonIago]

Personally I found Observer Effect better than a significant number of ENT episodes...

Whether that's saying more about OE or less about the others is left as an exercise for the reader.

 

[T'Girl]

^ IIRC, it's said in INS that the Son'a couldn't have done what they'd done without Dougherty's assistance.

Correction; "without the Federation Council's assistance?"

We don't have any hard evidence that the events of INS ultimately changed anything.

Let's see Picard is still the captain of the Enterprise, and the cast doesn't look any younger in Nemesis.

You mean like TMP take place only a few years after TOS, but the cast is a decade older? Or Pine-Kirk stays the same age, even though suddenly it three years later in the movie?

Besides the movie ended with the federation council soon to be on the receiving end of a Picard speech, which nothing in the trekverse can resist

Not a problem, when Picard is hauled in front of the council, standing next to him will be Laxanna Troi (who has just been told Picard is reserving a fountain of youth for his new girlfriend and 600 of her buddies).

No they just don't see why people who already live to mid 100s wanting to live to late 200s-mid 300s

Okay, now apply that to the Baku.

 

[Richard Baker]

The Baku become one of the richest groups of people in the Federation by turning the 99.99999999999999999% of the planet they are not using into a giant health spa.

I rewatched the 'Observer Effect' this week- I do not really see how that violated the Prime Directive even in spirit. The two Organians did not pass on information or alter the development of a lesser species. They did heal three people but the doctor assumed it was some unexpected result from his experimental treatment. The Enterprise posted a warning so others would not have the same problem, but that was just procedure. The only significant change was that the observers would need to find another place to watch, I doubt this planet was the only one being used in this fashion. When they left the ship nobody had any knowledge they had been there and the Enterprise just moved on to it's next mission.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ IIRC, it's said in INS that the Son'a couldn't have done what they'd done without Dougherty's assistance.

Correction; "without the Federation Council's assistance?"

Well, that would depend on whether or not you believe Dougherty when he said he was acting on Council authority. I don't, and never will, believe that.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

^ IIRC, it's said in INS that the Son'a couldn't have done what they'd done without Dougherty's assistance.

Correction; "without the Federation Council's assistance?"

Well, that would depend on whether or not you believe Dougherty when he said he was acting on Council authority. I don't, and never will, believe that.

It doesn't help that they decided to rethink the matter over really quick, as opposed top the last time Picard asked to get them to rethink a mater (aka relocating people from the DMZ that wouldn't budge) and was told no.

Plus having the guy getting talked into letting the Son'a blow up the Enterprise makes you wonder what else Ru'afo talked him into.