"Obeserver Effect": A Rebuke of the Prime Directive?

[Lexx Shrapnel]

And humanity has such a good track record when it comes to first contacts with indigenous people too.

The Federation is more advanced than any government ever created/elected on Earth.

 

[T'Girl]

when one Boralian learns the truth after all, he is so shocked he commits suicide

That's not why he committed suicide.

Vorin wasn't "shocked by the truth." The problem was he was give three choices, he could leave his people forever, or he could keep quiet/lie forever, or he could be regarded by his people as a fool and a madman.

Vorin's basic problem was that he both loved his people, and he was a honest man. If the crew of the Enterprise had been generally honest with the Boraalan people, Vorin as a individual wouldn't have been place in the position of having no way out.

 

[at Quark's]

when one Boralian learns the truth after all, he is so shocked he commits suicide

That's not why he committed suicide.

Vorin wasn't "shocked by the truth." The problem was he was give three choices, he could leave his people forever, or he could keep quiet/lie forever, or he could be regarded by his people as a fool and a madman.

Vorin's basic problem was that he both loved his people, and he was a honest man. If the crew of the Enterprise had been generally honest with the Boraalan people, Vorin as a individual wouldn't have been place in the position of having no way out.

You're absolutely right, yes. Well, he was definitely shocked when he discovered the truth, but then, who wouldn't be ?

I think one question that is never explored is what the cultural damage to the Boraalans really would have been in the first place, had the enterprise crew been open about it, perhaps save for some cop-out line like 'it would shake the very foundations of their belief system' (I really can't remember).

But it has been many years since I've seen that ep.... perhaps I'm going to watch it right now and find out

 

[T'Girl]

But then I remembered the Spanish & the Aztecs - the Aztecs wiped out by European disease they weren't immune to.

My Spanish ancestors did bring smallpox to the Americas.

Traders by way of the silk road brought the Black Death to indigenous peoples of Europe.

For thousands of years cholera pretty much stayed in India, then came contact with the rest of the world.

Slave trade spread yellow fever beyond Africa.

Contact between new people can bring conquest, strife and disease, but also knowledge and trade and (eventual) understanding. Enemies can become friends and allies.

I think one question that is never explored is what the cultural damage to the Boraalans really would have been in the first place, had the enterprise crew been open about it, perhaps save for some cop-out line like 'it would shake the very foundations of their belief system' ...

What effect was it going to have on them in centuries to come when they discover that they're biologically different than all other life on their (new) planet?

I truly believe the best thing would have been to just tell them what was happening, but it would have been okay to be vague on the details. There would have been no need for them to "travel light," the Enteprise likely could have moved their entire village.

And without the prime directive a earlier move could have been possible, meaning more people from other villages could also have been moved. Increasing the size of the relocated gene pool.

If Worf's brother hadn't had to sneak people aboard, how many more would have lived?

 

[sonak]

Wonder how long it would have been before the Federation Observers on Ba'ku would have realized the extent to which the people there were advanced, if Data had not malfunctioned. One way to "know" (judge?) a people is to interact and learn the philosophy and history of that people. Knowing that observing a thing changes it, this is more easily said than done, but without a thoughtful, considered study, how can anyone know?

"Insurrection's" premise is extremely flawed. Later events in the film show that Dougherty knew the Baku weren't indigenous, so the PD shouldn't have applied and the Baku should have been openly approached from the beginning. There didn't need to be a secret observation post, but if there wasn't, then the Baku would have to be ASKED to leave, and then well...


either they say yes, and there's no conflict, or they say no and the audience isn't exactly oozing with sympathy for them.

 

[DonIago]

I've assumed the secret observation post was in place to facilitate the creation of the secret village in the secret holoship.

 

[sonak]

I've assumed the secret observation post was in place to facilitate the creation of the secret village in the secret holoship.

sealed with a secret handshake?


But yes, you're quite right. However that should have been an unnecessary ruse in the first place if the PD didn't apply and the UFP was free to contact them.

 

[DonIago]

It kind of makes sense if you assume the Feds did approach the Baku about leaving the planet voluntarily and they declined and the Feds decided to go ahead with their plan after that refusal.

Of course, then other elements of the film don't make sense, but I don't think there's any way to reconcile all of the issues.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Wonder how long it would have been before the Federation Observers on Ba'ku would have realized the extent to which the people there were advanced, if Data had not malfunctioned. One way to "know" (judge?) a people is to interact and learn the philosophy and history of that people. Knowing that observing a thing changes it, this is more easily said than done, but without a thoughtful, considered study, how can anyone know?

"Insurrection's" premise is extremely flawed. Later events in the film show that Dougherty knew the Baku weren't indigenous, so the PD shouldn't have applied and the Baku should have been openly approached from the beginning. There didn't need to be a secret observation post, but if there wasn't, then the Baku would have to be ASKED to leave, and then well...


either they say yes, and there's no conflict, or they say no and...

Starfleet leaves, like with every other race that has something they want that says no.

 

[T'Girl]

Starfleet leaves, like with every other race that has something they want that says no.

FLINT: You have nothing I want.

KIRK: But you have the Ryetalyn that we need, if necessary, we'll take it.

then the Baku would have to be ASKED to leave

Or the Baku could have been TOLD that they would be leaving, Starfleet would have offered to relocate the entire village, including the building if the Baku wanted.

But they would be leaving.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

The Ba'ku may not have *originated* on that planet, but surely they were there before the Federation ever knew of their existence. So it's only in the strictest technical sense that they weren't indigenous. They effectively were. (But it also doesn't change the fact that they were aware of other civilizations and had highly advanced technology. It's those things that throw the Prime Directive into question, not whether they were indigenous to that planet.)

As for that thing with Kirk and Flint: Could be that Kirk was just engaging in hyperbole. Trying to scare Flint, as it were.

 

[Nebusj]

The Ba'ku may not have *originated* on that planet, but surely they were there before the Federation ever knew of their existence. So it's only in the strictest technical sense that they weren't indigenous. They effectively were.

Frankly, if discovering a planet, settling a planet, building a city on the planet, and remaining on the planet with the intention of living there indefinitely doesn't give one right to the planet there's something messed up there.

(But it also doesn't change the fact that they were aware of other civilizations and had highly advanced technology. It's those things that throw the Prime Directive into question, not whether they were indigenous to that planet.)

Yeah; the Baku didn't belong in the 'quarantined due to prime directive concerns' bin. Probably the Federation study of this was going to reveal this sooner or later, which raises the question of how soon and what the Sona were figuring to do to delay or manipulate the discovery to their interests.

 

[DonIago]

It already had been revealed; Dougherty knew they weren't indigenous and there's no reason to believe he hid anything from the Federation Council.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Starfleet leaves, like with every other race that has something they want that says no.

FLINT: You have nothing I want.

KIRK: But you have the Ryetalyn that we need, if necessary, we'll take it.

1) It was to cure an illness that would kill people.

2) He got his ship turned into a desk top model for his trouble.

then the Baku would have to be ASKED to leave

Or the Baku could have been TOLD that they would be leaving, Starfleet would have offered to relocate the entire village, including the building if the Baku wanted.

But they would be leaving.

And yet they still living on their planet.

And yeah, reconciling with the guys with WMDs kind of means they don't need to worry about getting forced out.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

It already had been revealed; Dougherty knew they weren't indigenous and there's no reason to believe he hid anything from the Federation Council.

Yeah, and Alex Marcus was an upstanding Federation citizen not planning to start a full scale war by causing the death of Starfleet officers.

You'll excuse me if I'm skeptical about the antagonistic admiral of the story especially since if Dougherty were so honest, it seems quiet odd that the Federation Council would put a stop to the relocation in what had to be just a few hours at most maybe less when factoring in travel times.

 

[T'Girl]

A halt while there was a review, not a unequivocal stop.

 

[DonIago]

^Exactly.

We don't have any hard evidence that the events of INS ultimately changed anything.

 

[-Brett-]

The Ba'ku may not have *originated* on that planet, but surely they were there before the Federation ever knew of their existence. So it's only in the strictest technical sense that they weren't indigenous. They effectively were.

Frankly, if discovering a planet, settling a planet, building a city on the planet, and remaining on the planet with the intention of living there indefinitely doesn't give one right to the planet there's something messed up there.

It is pretty messed up. If Insurrection has any merit at all, it's in outing the disturbing sense of authoritarianism and borderline fascism in Star Trek fandom.

 

[BillJ]

It is pretty messed up. If Insurrection has any merit at all, it's in outing the disturbing sense of authoritarianism and borderline fascism in Star Trek fandom.

I don't know? I think it's pretty disturbing that people think that something that can help billions should be allowed to be squatted on by a few people. Then those people don't even have to defend their property to keep it, they can just trick others into doing it for them.

YMMV.

 

[DonIago]

A few people who didn't even originate on the planet in question but were just lucky enough to get there first.

Kirk would probably argue that evicting the Baku would be -restoring- their natural evolution.