Oberth Class – the missing link between Enterprise and Reliant

[Reverend]

I can understand why people complained about the idea of the Excelsior replacing the old Connie design. For one thing fans ALWAYS complain about change. Always. Without fail. Even if the thing being changed is something they complained about when it turned up in the first place. Secondly, it's just not a very consistent or carefully thought out design and like the Oberth, the details are somewhat wanting.

I mean Probert spent WAY more time and thought into designing the refit (and later, the E-D) than whomever it was at ILM responsible for the Excelsior & the Grissom. Not that I'm criticizing the quality mind. They're all quality builds and the sleek, low detail aesthetic was most likely mandated, but they just felt like a little too much of a departure from the look of the Enterprise & the Reliant IMO.

 

[Robert Comsol]

For one thing fans ALWAYS complain about change. Always. Without fail.

Or the proposal of new perspectives that do not fit treknological assumptions that the majority of fans have somewhat agreed upon and/or remained undisputed over an extended period of time .

Bob

 

[Praetor]

To paraphase the Borg:

"We are the fans. Lower your pens and surrender your scripts. Your literary and Treknological assertions will be rejected by our own. Your productions will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile."

 

[B.J.]

Hate to go off on yet another tangent, but....

And remember the Merchantman? Study models were made for that as well, one of which can actually be seen sitting in Spacedock (the barge/dumpster-looking thing under a ramp). It doesn't look anything like the final Merchantman design.

You have a source for this, or any other info? This is the first time I've seen anything new on that particular ship in years. The last time I saw it discussed was back on the Flare board, where it was undecided whether it was a ship or part of spacedock, and had basically become Topic Verbotten (like the length of the Defiant).

 

[Dukhat]

But seriously, what the fxxx where Nimoy and Bennett thinking?

First, they listen to Enterprise-hater Ken Ralston who pitched the idea to have the Enterprise destroyed in ST III. And in the very next movie they suddenly realize how stupid they were listening to this guy and resurrect the Enterprise.

You are overly-dramatizing things. ILM had always complained about filming the TMP Enterprise model. It was large and unwieldy, and very hard to get good camera angles for it. That was the main reason why the Excelsior model was designed and built: It was eventually supposed to become Kirk's new command after the 1701 was destroyed in STIII, and it was a much easier model to shoot.

Did they consider Excelsior to be Kirk's next assignment? Unless they wanted to look stupid (see above) I can imagine they seriously thought about this.

See above.

But I vividly remember the fans expressing their dislike with the Excelsior (with Bjo Trimble as a very prominent spokesperson) so Nimoy and Bennett (reluctantly?) apparently decided to appease the fans to sell movie tickets and avoid bad PR.

While there was some fan resentment toward the Excelsior, I seriously doubt that had anything to do with the Enterprise-A being another Connie. By that time the idea of the Excelsior being Kirk's new ship was dropped, so they basically just resorted to using what they had for a five-second ending scene: the TMP Enterprise.

You have a source for this, or any other info? This is the first time I've seen anything new on that particular ship in years. The last time I saw it discussed was back on the Flare board, where it was undecided whether it was a ship or part of spacedock, and had basically become Topic Verbotten (like the length of the Defiant).

TrekBBS member Maurice had the opportunity to discuss this with Bill George, who stated that he thought the ship was a study model for the Merchantman. No, it's not clear-cut proof, but this info did come from a reputable source.

 

[Maurice]

ILM never thought the film was a prequel.

They were asked to come up with possible designs for the Excelsior and they sketched out concepts. Bill George built some of them and when he had free time was told to come up with one of his own, which he did. The models were presented to Nimoy and he said "that one" of Bill's concept.

The Excelsior has fins and stuff because Bill "thought they would look cool" not because they were intended to be retro or anything like that.

I got all this from Bill one day at his house.

That is all.

 

[Robert Comsol]

The models were presented to Nimoy and he said "that one" of Bill's concept.

Would be interesting to learn which of the two illustrated here.

The "duck" on the top or what appears to be a revised study of it at the bottom.
Possibly the "duck" looked too retro to Nimoy/Bennett/Winter, but they agreed to the basic design and asked for a revised study.

Bob

 

[Dukhat]

Would be interesting to learn which of the two illustrated here.

The "duck" on the top or what appears to be a revised study of it at the bottom.

Obviously, Nimoy chose the one that looks exactly like the finished product.

 

[Maurice]

The models were presented to Nimoy and he said "that one" of Bill's concept.

Would be interesting to learn which of the two illustrated here.

The "duck" on the top or what appears to be a revised study of it at the bottom.
Possibly the "duck" looked too retro to Nimoy/Bennett/Winter, but they agreed to the basic design and asked for a revised study.

Bob

I'm fairly certain it was the "duck". Thee other is much too close to the final to have been the original study model.

Bill tells me that he still has an original study model for the BOP. One day I'll make him dig it out so I can get some photos.

 

[Praetor]

I stumbled across some photos, apparently of the Grissom model, that I hadn't seen before. They were on John Eaves' blog.

Check 'em out.

Note the airlock on the side of the pod, and the odd red thing on the top within the pylon.

I seem to recall that there was another model besides the original and the wrecked Vico (which it obviously isn't) so I'm not sure which it would be, or even if that other model exists.

By registry, she seems to be the Pegasus.

 

[blssdwlf]

Nice find. If that is the airlock then it could be matched up to the Enterprise for scaling purposes.

Edit: NM, here's a comparison

 

[Robert Comsol]

Great find! Shouldn't that help us to finally nail down the size for the Oberth Class TNG variation?!

Nevertheless and especially due to the bottom view, the warp coil baffle plates - or whatever you may want to call these - look still rather archaic to me.

Bob

 

[austen_pierce]

Are we 100% sold on a linear progression of registry numbers? Is there room in canon for parallelism? The 600 series could have been reserved for the Oberth line. With no evidence to support that class prior to TSFS, the bridge design (another set reuse) means it doesn't go back much farther than TMP.

I just don't see Oberth as a bridge between Connie and Miranda. Oberth always looked and behaved like a science vessel, not a heavy cruiser. Reliant is a heavy cruiser, a match for Enterprise or at least a general purpose frigate.

 

[Robert Comsol]

Are we 100% sold on a linear progression of registry numbers? Is there room in canon for parallelism? The 600 series could have been reserved for the Oberth line. With no evidence to support that class prior to TSFS, the bridge design (another set reuse) means it doesn't go back much farther than TMP.

I am sold because this is what the creator of the Enterprise envisioned and because it holds up rather well up to a point in the late 23rd Century where the system was altered.

Having seen the Enterprise refitted in TMP with the probability that the Miranda Class underwent the same kind of refit procedure, I don't see why the Oberth Class could not have been refitted with the latest bridge module etc.

I just don't see Oberth as a bridge between Connie and Miranda.

Never mind, since you couldn't "morph" the Oberth into the Enterprise without growing a dorsal, I've adjusted and limited my speculation for the Oberth to be a design on the road to the Miranda Class.

Oberth always looked and behaved like a science vessel, not a heavy cruiser. Reliant is a heavy cruiser, a match for Enterprise or at least a general purpose frigate.

My essential idea was that the Oberth Class had been downgraded to a science vessel by the time of ST III, no longer competing with the starships of the mid- and late 23rd Century.

Bob

 

[Dukhat]

We have no idea what that hole is supposed to be. It could be an airlock, or it could be where a mounting rod goes for filming. It should in no way be any sort of evidence about the size of the ship, which I don't believe for one second was "upscaled" for TNG like the Klingon BoP was.

My personal belief, based on what I see (and I also do not believe in the linearity and/or chronological progression of registry numbers, nor do I believe that Matt Jefferies' registry scheme was followed by anyone other than Matt Jefferies), is that the Grissom was a new ship, contemporary to the Excelsior. There's no reason whatsoever to assume that it's any older than it has to be, especially with its later appearances 75 years later in TNG.

 

[Robert Comsol]

We have no idea what that hole is supposed to be.

What "hole"? This is obviously an added on decal while the mounting rod is on the port side.

It could be an airlock. ... It should in no way be any sort of evidence about the size of the ship, which I don't believe for one second was "upscaled" for TNG like the Klingon BoP was.

It has the established TMP and post-TMP characteristics of an airlock and/or docking ring and there is no reason to assume otherwise or to second-guess its use as an indicator of in-universe size (the TNG Enterprise had the same sized kind of airlocks and docking rings).

The original VFX model (Grissom) had an overall length of 120 meters according to its creators. That it was "upscaled" for TNG is the logical conclusion of cross-sections established during TNG.
But even if we approached the size in the Thermian way, than this would be at least proof it was "downscaled".

There's no reason whatsoever to assume that it's any older than it has to be, especially with its later appearances 75 years later in TNG.

If that's still your personal belief that's fine. If it is not, then we may just go straight back to the beginning of this thread where I provided plenty of reasons.

Bob

 

[blssdwlf]

NM. The Grissom in that pick does look smaller than the upscaled version. It's the BOP of the Federation

 

[F. King Daniel]

If that's the location of the airlock, then the Tsiolkovsky's internal layout must be the most bizarre in Starfleet

 

[Praetor]

Well, it makes sense if you have to take an airlock from the main section down the secondary hull, or if crappy access from one to another makes it advantageous to have direct access there.

I seem to recall the Cochrane (I think) that delivered Bashir and Dax to DS9 docking at a pylon, but I can't remember how that lined up. (Considering they didn't exactly get the D's docking right either, we're probably just as well to ignore it.)

I'm a little suspicious that the docking port decal was just lifted off the decal sheetof a NCC-1701 refit model kit and later added. If we look at this screencap from the original version of "The Naked Now" it doesn't appear to be present.

 

[Robert Comsol]

I'm a little suspicious that the docking port decal was just lifted off the decal sheet of a NCC-1701 refit model kit and later added. If we look at this screencap from the original version of "The Naked Now" it doesn't appear to be present.

Well, according to the registry of the VFX model in "The Naked Now" this is still the ST IV model with little alterations and more to come. The great pictures you provided reveal the ship to be the USS Pegasus, the final state of the VFX model. Therefore the docking port decal had been applied there at some point in time before.

Hmm...if this is really just taken from the decal sheet of the movie Enterprise, how seriously could or should we take it?

And I'm still very, very confused where this airlock could possibly be. Given the unobstructed view into open space the Pegasus' location proposal would be the only one feasible (maybe more thought went into it than we assume?).

Of course, this would make this the secondary bridge for the star-drive crew - when the saucer is on a mission of its own.

Bob