Number of Star Fleet officers on DS9

[Tosk]

First of all, that's not true of Quark, the Klingon woman wasn't White.

Mary Kay Adams is white.

Second, Bashir is not exactly white himself.

So? His love life was still monochromatic. So was Worf's for that matter.

Third, Odo has only been seen with two women, the odds are very much in favor of them being both white.

Sisko was only romantically linked to three women. Odo had romantic dealings with Nerys, Arissa, and the Female Founder...all played by white women. And that's not counting his "kinda/sorta" relationship with Lwaxana.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

That's far from being the same thing as a romantic liaison. For one thing he hated the second one, and didn't have much regard for the first one either.

MU Sisko did, but he is not Brooks' normal character on the show.

I fail to see how either of those mean anything in regards to the claim that Avery objected to Sisko being paired with anything other than brown women.

Anyway, the claim needs to be proven, not disproven. It's on the claimant to show proof, not make excuses for evidence that throws doubt on the claim.

Pardon me, Tosk, I have made no claim about what Brooks wanted to portray with regards to interracial relations. Indeed, I am the source of the best counterexample: that Sisko slept with MU Dax, a pairing that would have been written out of the episode had Brooks objected.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

First of all, that's not true of Quark, the Klingon woman wasn't White.

Mary Kay Adams is white.

Second, Bashir is not exactly white himself.

So? His love life was still monochromatic. So was Worf's for that matter.

Third, Odo has only been seen with two women, the odds are very much in favor of them being both white.

Sisko was only romantically linked to three women. Odo had romantic dealings with Nerys, Arissa, and the Female Founder...all played by white women. And that's not counting his "kinda/sorta" relationship with Lwaxana.

I'm sure most questions related to who dated whom could be resolved by looking at the Rolodex of the casting agent at the time. Whoever provided that service simply was not very thoughtful. The fact that some actors and actresses tended to get reused across the franchise would only perpetuate this aspect.

The claim about Brooks refusing to portray an interracial romance seems spurious. Only two meaningful claims have ever been made in this regard: that Brooks was attracted to the role because it was a positive portrayal of an African American family, and that Brooks objected to the idea that Sisko might never return from the Celestial Temple made the character look like a black man who abandoned a woman to be a single mother. It seems that those two facts have been inverted by some people on this forum to suggest that Brooks insisted on only pairing Sisko with African American women in a way that one might describe as "reverse discrimination." Given that Sisko had so few romances makes proving that claim based on who was cast as his girlfriend/wife nearly impossible. And in the end, the most important relationship Sisko ever had was with Jake.

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

First of all, that's not true of Quark, the Klingon woman wasn't White.

Mary Kay Adams is white.

Second, Bashir is not exactly white himself.

So? His love life was still monochromatic. So was Worf's for that matter.

Third, Odo has only been seen with two women, the odds are very much in favor of them being both white.

Sisko was only romantically linked to three women. Odo had romantic dealings with Nerys, Arissa, and the Female Founder...all played by white women. And that's not counting his "kinda/sorta" relationship with Lwaxana.

Perhaps I didn't particularly appreciate his "our people" crap in BADA-BiNG-BADA-BANG. Come on! This is supposed to be the 24th century, the odds are that by then there won't be any people left without a mixed ancestry, let alone people still obsessed with what happened in the 20th century.

Four hundred years ago, my ancestors were likely serfs of the ancient regime, yet I swear to you that I don't go crazy each time I see a renaissance fair!


About Bashir, you say: so? as if you didn't get it. Bashir is basically an Arab ethnic-wise. To accuse him of bigotry, he'd have to be exclusively with Arab women. He isn't.

Did you just forget the point of this discussion?

Same thing with worf. Are you kidding me???

What the hell is going on? Did you just decide to bail out of an honest discussion?

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Perhaps I didn't particularly appreciate his "our people" crap in BADA-BiNG-BADA-BANG. Come on! This is supposed to be the 24th century, the odds are that by then there won't be any people left without a mixed ancestry, let alone people still obsessed with what happened in the 20th century.

Four hundred years ago, my ancestors were likely serfs of the ancient regime, yet I swear to you that I don't go crazy each time I see a renaissance fair!

You are complaining about Sisko not buying into a fairytale, to have no memory of the injustices of the past, and give into self-indulgence? Or is it because he, as the minority, is obliged to assimilate?

I, for one, am glad that he never went to Vic's, never surrendered his "bigotry," because thankfully we were spared many more moments of the holodeck crooner.

Oh, wait, it didn't happen that way.

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

Perhaps I didn't particularly appreciate his "our people" crap in BADA-BiNG-BADA-BANG. Come on! This is supposed to be the 24th century, the odds are that by then there won't be any people left without a mixed ancestry, let alone people still obsessed with what happened in the 20th century.

Four hundred years ago, my ancestors were likely serfs of the ancient regime, yet I swear to you that I don't go crazy each time I see a renaissance fair!

You are complaining about Sisko not buying into a fairytale, to have no memory of the injustices of the past, and give into self-indulgence? Or is it because he, as the minority, is obliged to assimilate?

I, for one, am glad that he never went to Vic's, never surrendered his "bigotry," because thankfully we were spared many more moments of the holodeck crooner.

Oh, wait, it didn't happen that way.

I am complaining about Sisko using the expression "our people" in a context where it is completely out of place. I am complaining about the writer's total lack of foresight. As I said in a federation where for hundred of years a policy of equal rights will have been applied. There won't be any "pure breed" left, making the expression "our people" totally obsolete.
It would be like someone now claiming that all his ancestors were Neanderthal, I mean, unless we're speaking figuratively of course, that would be quite impossible.


Hell, even TOS was above that sort of crap!

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Perhaps I didn't particularly appreciate his "our people" crap in BADA-BiNG-BADA-BANG. Come on! This is supposed to be the 24th century, the odds are that by then there won't be any people left without a mixed ancestry, let alone people still obsessed with what happened in the 20th century.

Four hundred years ago, my ancestors were likely serfs of the ancient regime, yet I swear to you that I don't go crazy each time I see a renaissance fair!

You are complaining about Sisko not buying into a fairytale, to have no memory of the injustices of the past, and give into self-indulgence? Or is it because he, as the minority, is obliged to assimilate?

I, for one, am glad that he never went to Vic's, never surrendered his "bigotry," because thankfully we were spared many more moments of the holodeck crooner.

Oh, wait, it didn't happen that way.

I am complaining about Sisko using the expression "our people" in a context where it is completely out of place. I am complaining about the writer's total lack of foresight. As I said in a federation where for hundred of years a policy of equal rights will have been applied. There won't be any "pure breed" left, making the expression "our people" totally obsolete.
It would be like someone now claiming that all his ancestors were Neanderthal, I mean, unless we're speaking figuratively of course, that would be quite impossible.


Hell, even TOS was above that sort of crap!

You are very mistaken: identity and blood are not the same thing.

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

You are complaining about Sisko not buying into a fairytale, to have no memory of the injustices of the past, and give into self-indulgence? Or is it because he, as the minority, is obliged to assimilate?

I, for one, am glad that he never went to Vic's, never surrendered his "bigotry," because thankfully we were spared many more moments of the holodeck crooner.

Oh, wait, it didn't happen that way.

I am complaining about Sisko using the expression "our people" in a context where it is completely out of place. I am complaining about the writer's total lack of foresight. As I said in a federation where for hundred of years a policy of equal rights will have been applied. There won't be any "pure breed" left, making the expression "our people" totally obsolete.
It would be like someone now claiming that all his ancestors were Neanderthal, I mean, unless we're speaking figuratively of course, that would be quite impossible.


Hell, even TOS was above that sort of crap!

You are very mistaken: identity and blood are not the same thing.

Nope, I am not. It's hard to say "our people" when your people is thirty percent African, thirty percent Asian, thirty percent Caucasian and ten percent indeterminate.

 

[Agony_Boothb]

I don't think it was out of place considering Sisko's issue with the program was that it completely ignored the racial issues of the time. Granted it did this from the point of view that the world presented in the program was how it should have been. Kasidy pointed this out to Sisko and he got over it.

Sisko strongly identified with African culture as evidenced by his collecting of ancient african art, and the clothes he wore, which seemed inspired by traditional forms of african dress. Why shouldn't he take pride in his roots?

It doesn't matter whether Sisko is 'pure' african american, the point is that he appreciated where he came from and the struggles the people of his origin went through. Nothing wrong with that.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

I am complaining about Sisko using the expression "our people" in a context where it is completely out of place. I am complaining about the writer's total lack of foresight. As I said in a federation where for hundred of years a policy of equal rights will have been applied. There won't be any "pure breed" left, making the expression "our people" totally obsolete.
It would be like someone now claiming that all his ancestors were Neanderthal, I mean, unless we're speaking figuratively of course, that would be quite impossible.


Hell, even TOS was above that sort of crap!

You are very mistaken: identity and blood are not the same thing.

Nope, I am not. It's hard to say "our people" when your people is thirty percent African, thirty percent Asian, thirty percent Caucasian and ten percent indeterminate.

?????

You are reading far too much into what was said in the dialogue, and ascribing far too much of it to some unproven notion of what Brooks wanted. There is absolutely unprovable that the dialogue concerning Vic's represents any form of quest for racial purity, something that is tacitly impossible for African Americans.

 

[Tosk]

Pardon me, Tosk, I have made no claim about what Brooks wanted to portray with regards to interracial relations.

It was not my intent to misrepresent your stance. I only paired it with the other one due to the "it was not his regular character" in case that was meant to excuse the example in some way. My apologies if you felt I meant it any other way.

Bashir is basically an Arab ethnic-wise. To accuse him of bigotry, he'd have to be exclusively with Arab women.

Bigotry exists in many more permutations that just the "stick to your own kind" mentality.

Did you just forget the point of this discussion?

No, I didn't, we just veered a little away. It happens.

Someone on the internet assumed that Avery had a discriminatory attitude to women that he would be involved with on screen. I contend that there is proof that the assertion is baloney. Beyond that, I guess I'll leave it to you from this point on.

Did you just decide to bail out of an honest discussion?

I am now. You've ignored several reasons given as to why we should doubt the claim, so we'd probably just continue to go in circles from here.

Perhaps I didn't particularly appreciate his "our people" crap in BADA-BiNG-BADA-BANG.

I see. That is definitely illuminating.

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

You are very mistaken: identity and blood are not the same thing.

Nope, I am not. It's hard to say "our people" when your people is thirty percent African, thirty percent Asian, thirty percent Caucasian and ten percent indeterminate.

?????

You are reading far too much into what was said in the dialogue, and ascribing far too much of it to some unproven notion of what Brooks wanted. There is absolutely unprovable that the dialogue concerning Vic's represents any form of quest for racial purity, something that is tacitly impossible for African Americans.

Agreed, and that makes Sisko's use of "our people" when talking about the black people in America in the 20th century idiotic at best. There's been an interplanetary government for two hundred years in Sisko's time. There is no way that he could still identify with the African Americans of four hundred years before, no more than I could with my ancestors who were serfs in feudal time and that's because some of my ancestor were likely on the other side as well.

I hope I've made my point this time.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

^You have proven the necessity of one phrase: "n'oubliez jamais."

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

^You have proven the necessity of one phrase: "n'oubliez jamais."

What's that got to do with anything? It's hard to argue with people who respond to elaborated ideas with slogans.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Simple: we should beware of people who make us feel guilty for remembering the injustices of the past, the people who suffered, and the fight against those injustices.

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

Simple: we should beware of people who make us feel guilty for remembering the injustices of the past, the people who suffered, and the fight against those injustices.

Again, what's that got to do with anything? Are you running for something and using this site as a dry run for your future campaign?

 

[drmick]

In Field Of Fire the computer says that there are forty eight Vulcan Starfleet Officers serving on the station. I believe that translates to at least a couple of hundreds Starfleet officers total, especially given Sisko's general dislike of Vulcans.


I mean, Sisko doesn't particularly want Vulcans, so he wouldn't ask for more than the strict minimum serving under his orders.

Sisko only likes black Vulcans.....

(Sorry!)

Yes, I didn't know about Avery Brooks' demand to be coupled with black women exclusively until I read it on this site (and it explains why we never see him romantically involved with a non-black woman) but I find quite disturbing that an actor, whoever he is, could do something like that and never get into any kind of trouble, legal or otherwise. Personally I find the whole idea disgusting. So much for multiculture.

A friend told me that Denzel Washington won't kiss white women on screen and has spoken publicly about it.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Simple: we should beware of people who make us feel guilty for remembering the injustices of the past, the people who suffered, and the fight against those injustices.

Again, what's that got to do with anything? Are you running for something and using this site as a dry run for your future campaign?

I believe you are feigning ignorance. You've made plenty of statements attempting to read racism where none exists. Conversely, you argue that the existence of identity in the future is the result of racism on the part of people who have historically suffered from racism. Should various identities exist in the future, perhaps some that exist now, it is not the obligation of people who have been oppressed to turn over and disappear. To do so would be willful amnesia. To insist that someone do so means asking them to commit cultural suicide.

 

[Agony_Boothb]

I don't get why Sisko being culturally aware and using the phrase 'our people' is such an issue. Especially when it's been shown in previous episodes that Sisko identifies strongly with african culture and ancestry. The whole point of Sisko saying it was for the writers to create a discussion about the glossing over of historical facts and cultural ignorance. This is something that happens currently all the time in our society.

For Sisko to take issue with the historical innaccuracies of the program to me shows what an enlightened 24th century human he is. Yes the racism he is talking about is 400 years in the past and yes it doesn't affect him directly but it most likely affected his ancestors. Sisko has enough empathy to bothered by the program and the apparent cultural ignorance that it represents toward the struggles of his ancestors. When Sisko says 'Our people' he's talking about his and Kasidy's ancestors, not the black panther movement he's thinking about starting on station

It wasn't until Kasidy pointed out to Sisko that the program was actually being culturally sensitive as opposed to ignorant that he changed his view. This is what you want characters on television to do. Have opinions, have those opinions challenged and then have them grow from it.

 

[dub]

This is supposed to be the 24th century, the odds are that by then there won't be any people left without a mixed ancestry

Yet Star Trek definitely doesn't show that. They could do that with make-up if they wanted to. But they instead include people from various races instead of showing humans all as mixed.