Nu-Enterprise Crew Complement

[CuttingEdge100]

What was the crew complement of the NuEnterprise? Must have been gigantic considering how big that ship was. The Kelvin also had a rather large crew-complement too (800).

Interestingly in TNG, the Enterprise-D was originally supposed to have a crew of 3,800 (based on it's size) but the amount of extras they'd have to pay would be ridiculous so they went with 1,000 and change.

 

[C.E. Evans]

Nah, the 1000+ complement for the Enterprise-D wasn't based on how many extras they would have to use on TNG (they would have used pretty much the same number of extras no matter how big the crew was, IMO).

IIRC, the idea was that the Enterprise-D had roughly twice the crew of the original Enterprise plus 200 or so passengers. They came up with 1,012 but the ship was built to hold several times that number if specific mission objectives warranted (like small- to medium-scale evacuations, large personnel transfers, future crew expansion, etc). Even the original Enterprise probably could hold a crew of 1,000 if necessary.

I think the nuEnterprise has at least 1,000 with the capacity to hold much more.

 

[F. King Daniel]

According to the "Experience the Enterprise" promotional site (is it even still around? Can't check coz I'm on my phone) the crew of the 2009 Enterprise was 1100.

It's worth noting that the Kelvin had 800 survivors not 800 crew. We saw quite a few people getting blown up.

 

[FatherRob]

Is anyone aware of the reasoning for such large crews on the Kelvin and the Enterprise? Starfleet/UESPA in the Prime Universe seemed to hold out the Connies of the TOS era as the top of the heap in terms of capabilities. She was something special. During Pike's tenure, the crew was 203. With Kirk, 430.

It would seem that the Kelvin should have had a much smaller crew compliment - in the order of 200 tops given its relative lack of space. Of course, I realize that this has a lot to do with ship sizes and complexity, and while I have heard it argued that the Constitution was designed much bigger on account of the Kelvin's encounter with the Narada (well, it's kinda the urban legend I have heard as a 'plausable' explanation of the difference on a Connie), I can see no reason for the Kelvin to be as big as she is.

I realise the real answer is, "it's that way because of the script", but I have yet to hear an explanation that doesn't require some form of earlier manipulation of the timeline to result in a ship as large (size and crew) as the Kelvin at a time where, if the timeline was unchanged, ships that large weren't flying yet.

Rob+

 

[Timo]

To be sure, the Prime Starfleet might have been operating large ships, too. After all, we only saw a single category of ships in TOS - the deep space explorer. Perhaps those vessels were among the smallest in Starfleet? Special, top of the line, all that, but really very, very small as far as starships went?

The fact that one and the same ship was holding 200 people at one time and 430 at another suggests to me that neither of those is the "crew requirement" of the type. It's just a hint to us that the ship can accommodate any number of people, and that less than 200 of them are actually needed to run the ship. Pike just happened to have 30 passengers while Kirk had 260...

How many people could the new Enterprise hold? Tens of thousands, probably, judging by the suggested size and the spacious interior vistas. How many would be needed to run the ship? Perhaps 2,000. Perhaps 57. We saw the Kelvin being run by just one person; having 57 helpers would give George Kirk some combat endurance (better damage control, more pairs of eyes to look for trouble, so forth), and having 2,000 would give him even more. And perhaps 57 skilled people could do the job of 2,000 half-baked cadets?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[F. King Daniel]

I don't see a problem with larger vessels preceeding (by 34 years!) TOS, or even co-existing with the classic Enterprise unseen until now (in much the same way we never saw a Galaxy class ship in Voyager, for example)

 

[FatherRob]

I don't see a problem with larger vessels preceeding (by 34 years!) TOS, or even co-existing with the classic Enterprise unseen until now (in much the same way we never saw a Galaxy class ship in Voyager, for example)

Huh? I admit I am not that up on Voyager, but I distinctly recall at least two occassions where we saw Galaxy Class ships in said series.

Second, Voyager was in the Delta Quadrant... far from home. Just because a Galaxy hadn't stumbled on some spatial anomoly doesn't mean they didn't exist.

Rob+

 

[F. King Daniel]

Ditto the larger nuTrek ships. Space is big, and TOS spent most of their time exploring the farthest reaches of space. Just because they never flew across a Kelvin, Newton or whatever class ship doesn't mean they weren't out there. Heck, we didn't see the USS Antaries or the Madusan's ship until TOS-R reconned them into the classic episodes. IMO the STXI ships are no different.

And you're right about the Galaxy - Geordi's ship in an alternate future. I forgot about that.

 

[FatherRob]

And you're right about the Galaxy - Geordi's ship in an alternate future. I forgot about that.

Actually, I was thinking about the Galaxies that welcomed Voyager home in "Endgame"...

But that being said, it really doesn't make sense to me that the Enterprise in the original universe was anything short of the best ship in the fleet. Excelsior was poised to steal that status by the time of Trek III, one which you could tell honked off at least one particular member of the Big E's crew.

I dunno... it just doesn't make much logical sense to me... small ship (NX), big honker (Kelvin), smaller ship (prime Enterprise).

Rob+

 

[Timo]

Hmmm... I don't know. The actual sequence in your model is more like small-big-small-big, bigger, biggest: apart from TOS, where we only saw a single type, the "impressive" ships kept growing and growing.

Even the status of Kirk's TOS ship as "impressive" is more an illusion than an onscreen fact. Our heroes or villains never make the claim that NCC-1701 would represent a particularly large or powerful ship type. It just so happens that NCC-1701 mainly runs into starship opponents that were of her size or often significantly smaller. And the one and only time when our heroes speak of their ship as "the best in the fleet", in "Immunity Syndrome", is an obvious case of morale-raising propaganda: they would have said the very same thing even if they had been flying a runabout. The NCC-1701 is never indicated to be more significant than other ships, seen or unseen.

In the TOS movies, Kirk's ship gains temporary distinction by saving Earth, but that seems unrelated to her being "impressive" in any way. Sheer chance dictates that she be the only starship capable of intercepting the foe; she's not said to be the biggest or best ship available, merely the ship that is available.

In ST3, Klingons consider the ship a dangerous, perhaps invincible opponent, but merely because they themselves are flying a tiny and weak vessel. And they call her "battle cruiser", a term that is only meaningful in the context of battleships and cruisers. So apparently Starfleet also has battleships, which are ships more powerful than battle cruisers!

The Excelsior is never indicated to be a replacement for the Constitution. She's merely the new wave of important ships, and lo and behold, happens to be a large ship, similar to the Kelvin in dimensions... The emphasis is on the Constitution being insignificant in comparison, without implying that she hasn't been insignificant all along.

Nowhere is NCC-1701 or NCC-1701-A indicated to hold special status in Starfleet, apart from the former briefly being a training vessel. Certainly there's no suggestion of a "flagship" status in any sense of the word, until ST6 - and there the ship is sent because she's Kirk's, and Starfleet wants to make a statement by sending Kirk. A lesser statement would have been made by sending Kirk in a battleship that wasn't his...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[FatherRob]

Even the status of Kirk's TOS ship as "impressive" is more an illusion than an onscreen fact. Our heroes or villains never make the claim that NCC-1701 would represent a particularly large or powerful ship type. It just so happens that NCC-1701 mainly runs into starship opponents that were of her size or often significantly smaller.

I understand your argument, Timo, but it fails me when I consider that the Constitution was the ship that always did the wargames, was always the forward face of the Federation, etc.

Rob+

 

[BillJ]

Until we know what the exact purpose of a ship like the Kelvin is, we'll never know how she fits into the Prime timeline.

 

[starburst]

Seeming that there was no way 800 people fit into that few shuttles that we saw escape from the Kelvin I tend to think of it as a script error and just ignore it.

The nuEnterprise having 1000 people on board I can believe

 

[F. King Daniel]

That could have been only the last group of shuttles to leave. Winona's shuttle was #47, and the evacuation was ongoing for the whole scene.

 

[M'Sharak]

According to the "Experience the Enterprise" promotional site (is it even still around? Can't check coz I'm on my phone) the crew of the 2009 Enterprise was 1100.

The site still exists, apparently, but I've never used it.

Memory Beta's page on it doesn't seem to contain anything about crew complement numbers:
http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Experience_The_Enterprise

 

[F. King Daniel]

Even the status of Kirk's TOS ship as "impressive" is more an illusion than an onscreen fact. Our heroes or villains never make the claim that NCC-1701 would represent a particularly large or powerful ship type. It just so happens that NCC-1701 mainly runs into starship opponents that were of her size or often significantly smaller.

I understand your argument, Timo, but it fails me when I consider that the Constitution was the ship that always did the wargames, was always the forward face of the Federation, etc.

Rob+

It's definitely a retcon, like the Romulans having the Remans just off-camera "all along", unseen until Nemesis and Enterprise. Or the Enterprise NX-01 (and entire Enterprise TV series), for that matter.

But, one could argue that the wargames in the "Ultimate Computer" were pitting Enterprise against identical ships on purpose, to properly test M5 vs. human crews.

 

[Timo]

the Constitution was the ship that always did the wargames

All ships would do those, in all likelihood. And they'd do those in all sorts of interesting mixtures. But if you want to see if M-5 improves the odds of victory, you'd better test a ship with M-5 against an identical ship without M-5.

was always the forward face of the Federation

In what sense? She was one of three ships considered for the gunboat diplomacy bit in "Amok Time", but apparently not as crucial as the other two. She ended up battling the Klingons in engagements where Starfleet might well have preferred a more powerful champion but had to settle for Kirk's ship because that was the one they had on the spot. The only time NCC-1701 was actually sent to confront the Klingons was when she was assigned to guard the backwater Organia, and she failed in that assignment... Confrontations with the Romulans or the Gorn were coincidences - or perhaps even cases of the enemy deciding to attack when the local Starfleet forces were at their weakest!

The only time Kirk's ship really did frontline diplomacy was ST6, and that was after Kirk had become Kirk in the iconic sense. Ferrying dignitaries to Babel sounded more like a job to be given to a ship that wasn't needed for anything else.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[DrCorby]

Even the status of Kirk's TOS ship as "impressive" is more an illusion than an onscreen fact. Our heroes or villains never make the claim that NCC-1701 would represent a particularly large or powerful ship type. It just so happens that NCC-1701 mainly runs into starship opponents that were of her size or often significantly smaller. And the one and only time when our heroes speak of their ship as "the best in the fleet", in "Immunity Syndrome", is an obvious case of morale-raising propaganda: they would have said the very same thing even if they had been flying a runabout. The NCC-1701 is never indicated to be more significant than other ships, seen or unseen.

Actually, in Bread and Circuses, the Proconsul dismisses Kirk, his crew, and his ship as nothing special, as far as he's seen. Merrick, however, corrects him rather strongly. Merrick says that Kirk commands "not just a spaceship, but a Starship", a special ship with a special crew. And that he aspired to command such a ship, but failed. Sounds to me that the ships like the Enterprise were a lot more than just a minor part of the fleet, small and underpowered.

Plus, in Tomorrow Is Yesterday, Kirk tells Captain Christopher that there are only 12 like her in the fleet. That doesn't sound like they were small explorerers, running errands. To me, the (unspoken) attitude in the series was that Enterprise was a fairly important ship, not just due to pride.

 

[M'Sharak]

Even the status of Kirk's TOS ship as "impressive" is more an illusion than an onscreen fact. Our heroes or villains never make the claim that NCC-1701 would represent a particularly large or powerful ship type. It just so happens that NCC-1701 mainly runs into starship opponents that were of her size or often significantly smaller. And the one and only time when our heroes speak of their ship as "the best in the fleet", in "Immunity Syndrome", is an obvious case of morale-raising propaganda: they would have said the very same thing even if they had been flying a runabout. The NCC-1701 is never indicated to be more significant than other ships, seen or unseen.

Actually, in Bread and Circuses, the Proconsul dismisses Kirk, his crew, and his ship as nothing special, as far as he's seen. Merrick, however, corrects him rather strongly. Merrick says that Kirk commands "not just a spaceship, but a Starship", a special ship with a special crew. And that he aspired to command such a ship, but failed. Sounds to me that the ships like the Enterprise were a lot more than just a minor part of the fleet, small and underpowered.

If you're going to use Merrick and the SS Beagle* as examples, then you must recall also that Merrick was an Academy washout and that the ship he commanded was a cargo vessel belonging to Merchant Service, not regular Starfleet. Moreover, it's uncertain just how much technical knowledge of Starfleet or the Federation the Proconsul may have possessed; he was instead drawing conclusions about Kirk based upon observations of Merrick and his crew, not their ship, and it was that to which Merrick was responding.

CLAUDIUS: Admit it. You find these games frightening, revolting.
KIRK: Proconsul, in some parts of the galaxy I have seen forms of entertainment that makes this look like a folk dance.
CLAUDIUS: Certain this isn't different, Captain? Those are your men dying, not strangers.
KIRK: I've had to select men to die before so that others could be saved.
CLAUDIUS: You're a clever liar, Captain Kirk. Merikus was a spaceship captain. I've observed him thoroughly. Your species has no such strength.

Yes, a Starfleet vessel--any starship--might well be deemed special in comparison to a lowly merchant vessel (and so, not surprisingly, would be her crew.) Now, I don't think anyone has implied that Enterprise is insignificant or "a minor part of the fleet, small and underpowered," but on the other hand I think you'd have to admit that neither was there ever anything which explicitly indicated that the E was the largest or the most advanced vessel in the fleet - not even in Kirk's words to Captain Christopher.


* Not "USS"

 

[Vance]

I don't see a problem with larger vessels preceeding (by 34 years!) TOS, or even co-existing with the classic Enterprise unseen until now (in much the same way we never saw a Galaxy class ship in Voyager, for example)

Excelsior, come 2285, was the largest ship of the fleet at the time in the 'Prime' universe. (This is somewhat backed up on screen by several comments from various crew-members upon seeing her). If the Excelsior was dwarfed by a factor of ten by ships immediately preceding the Enterprise, then wouldn't they be more shocked by how fragin' small the classic NCC-1701 was while being the Federation's workhorse?

Face it, guys, the only reason the ship's scaled that way in the movie is a severe case of Star Wars penis envy with little rationalization beyond that point. Consider the changes to the timeline as 'splash' damage rather than a linear progression and just have done with it. The Kelvin simply was not in the Prime universe as shown.

Besides, guys, are you seriously trying to suggest that the classic Enterprise was a fucking dingy throughout TOS and the movies and that everyone, including Kirk, the Klingons, Romulans, Star Fleet, and Gene Roddenberry, were just too fucking stupid not to realize that the 'real' ships were ships like the Kelvin instead?