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Not rescuing Nero: thumbs up or down?

Franklin --

To be clear, my response was to feofilakt (I edited my post to reflect this)...

Although I understand what you are saying. However, It's easy for a disconnected observer to say "they should have tried harder to capture Nero". The fact that they even offered assistance is enough for me.

...but like I said in an earlier post, the only thing I would have changed is make Kirk and Spock less "outwardly happy" with Nero's refusal of assistance. It would have been better if Kirk and Spock were of the mind to say "I will destroy you only because you have left me no other choice."
 
I'm not here to make myself "look" like anything...I yam what I yam and dat's all dat I yam....

I'm very "Popeye" today...:guffaw:

Explain to me how it would have been wise to spare Nero? What benefit or gain would there be from that? Do you dismiss the possibility of him coming back or escaping the penal colony to wreck more havoc and kill billions more?

What's the benefit? Just to feeeeeel good?

The feel good benefit is vengence. They got that.

Again, at least from my point of view, I'm not saying they could've taken Nero alive. They just didn't seem to care that much. The offer of rescue was perfunctory, and may even be required by regulations. I'm just saying they had no reason to fire on his ship as it was being destroyed.

Maybe if Spock had at least said he regretted that Nero couldn't have been taken alive and brought to justice and faced the people whose planet and people he wiped out, it would've tempered the scene of otherwise pure vengence.

Nero was no evil genius. He was a common man in an extraordinary circumstance. Without his ship, he would've been harmless.

True -- without his ship he would've been harmless. I'll grant you that.
The man had a right to his grief over losing Romulus -- but to kill billions of innocent Vulcans -- and tried to do the same to Earth -- those ACTIONS are certainly evil by any definition of the word...
 
No, you fit the classical definition of strawman in your argumentation.

Nice response, though, very well thought out. You are really making yourself look good :(

I'm not here to make myself "look" like anything...I yam what I yam and dat's all dat I yam....

I'm very "Popeye" today...:guffaw:

Explain to me how it would have been wise to spare Nero? What benefit or gain would there be from that? Do you dismiss the possibility of him coming back or escaping the penal colony to wreck more havoc and kill billions more?

What's the benefit? Just to feeeeeel good?

PISH on that, says I!

Once again, your ignore my statements and carry on as if adding smilies and exclamations points on vapid responses adds more weight to your argument.

Nobody said let him go. Nobody. The arguments that have been proposed break down like so.

1. Arrest him and try him for crimes against sentient lifeforms
2. Let him die in the black hole
3. If he must be killed by the Enterprise and her crew there are much better ways of writing the scene so we don't even have this debate.

Is that simple enough?


Uh...duhhhhh...no...uhhhh...not simple enough for an intellectually challenged dimwit like meee...uhhhh...could you re-explain it? Uhhh...duhhh...I'm not sure I gots it....

Me just wants to see blood, guts and explosions...uhhhh...duhhhh....
 
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One factor i was considering while watching that scene was "Could the Narada have escaped?" I mean Nero's ship was able to go through black holes (and had done so in the beginning of the film).

Just the fact the Narada had previously done this makes it (to me anyway) at least a possibility that the ship could've escaped after the Jellyfish rammed into it. Kirk offering to accept Nero's surrender, and his proceeding actions to open fire on the ship was OK with me.

Spocks reaction does at first glance seem a bit off character for him, but realizing that his home planet was destroyed and his mother killed makes it a bit more believeable for me since he's shown prior to this that he was indeed "emotionally compromised"

I also wondered after the movie what Spock Prime would have done, how he would have reacted. In either case, no matter how likely or unlikely it could have been, there was no way Kirk or Spock could have allowed the Narada to escape.

I've only seen the film once (definately would enjoy seeing it a few more times), so no doubt my first impression of that scene isn't perfect, but thats what i took away from Nero's non-rescue
 
Now here's where we get fuzzy. The writers have said that the Narada was capable of escaping to another time period through the black hole. This is not stated explicitly on screen.

It is not stated on screen because it didn't go down that way. The screen writers wrote this after the fact bit for that certain segment of Trek fans who saw the scene, were troubled by it, and seek out obscure little noted tidbits like that for clarification. Instead of saying "the dog was hit and killed by a car" they said "we gave the dog to a farm, where it is running about happily". They're appeasing fragile sensibilities.


The truth - as I see it - is that scene was written so Kirk more mirrors almost every modern screen hero in far too many films to count; and a villain who screws up that monumentally gets killed by the hero. Simple really. And I'm still good with that.
 
Now here's where we get fuzzy. The writers have said that the Narada was capable of escaping to another time period through the black hole. This is not stated explicitly on screen.

It is not stated on screen because it didn't go down that way. The screen writers wrote this after the fact bit for that certain segment of Trek fans who saw the scene, were troubled by it, and seek out obscure little noted tidbits like that for clarification. Instead of saying "the dog was hit and killed by a car" they said "we gave the dog to a farm, where it is running about happily". They're appeasing fragile sensibilities.

Do you have evidence of this, or are you making an unfounded accusation based on your low opinion of the writers and/or their film? If it's the latter, please don't waste our time.
 
Opinion. I have opinion language stuffed all in the above paragraphs. If you have a problem with it ignore it. I don't do the battle with strangers on the internet thing. I state my opinion and move on.

Also: high opinion of the film and writers. Low opinion of nitpicking.
 
...Nobody said let him go. Nobody. The arguments that have been proposed break down like so.

1. Arrest him and try him for crimes against sentient lifeforms
2. Let him die in the black hole
3. If he must be killed by the Enterprise and her crew there are much better ways of writing the scene so we don't even have this debate.

Is that simple enough?
I would find it nearly impossible, for example, to criticize a Jewish person in WWII for allowing Hitler to die if faced with a similar circumstance to what the Enterprise's crew found themselves with Nero.

In fact I would be shocked if any of Jew with knowledge of the extent of Hitler's genocidal tendecies would show him any "ethical" mercy whatsoever similar to the Enterprise's offer of assistance to Nero.

Forgiveness and observation of the law is possible, regardless of the circumstances. On my mother's side you find the surname in the Holocaust records, and for all intents and purposes I would be a dead man in Nazi Germany or Nazi occupied territory. And yet, though I am separated by time, I would never think of resorting to summary executions to satisfy myself. Do I feel deeply disturbed when I read and hear what the Nazis think not only of people of my genetic heritage but me by extension? Yes, the feeling of someone talking about you as if you were subhuman and only worthy of extermination or sterilization is chilling. Would I do the same to them out of vengeance if given the chance? Probably not, if we both act the same what is the difference between us? You are not good because you are innately good or because you say you are good, you are good because of your actions and intent.

Likewise on my father's side, who are conversos. I feel no animosity towards the old Spanish Crown or Spaniards. Time has given me perspective, obviously, but just because people do stupid and barbaric things does not mean they are no longer human.

Would some of Jewish lineage seek revenge on Nazis via vigilante justice? If they were of an upstanding ethical character, no, as proven by the Nazi hunters who sought to bring the Nazis to justice not to kill them. If the state deems assassination is OK because of judicial restraints, that is also OK, because in a state that is even remotely just there is good reason to do such and the decision is made not by individuals in the moment with limited information and knowledge, but (hopefully) more objective mechanisms of action.

We in the "free" West criticized the Soviets for doing exactly what you are advocating in their occupation of Germany, specifically Berlin. Are we to stick to those accusations or have they been made hollow by our reversal of opinion? Were we merely criticizing them because they were the Soviet Union or because their actions were not ethical?

^
^^ I would find it very hard, for example, to criticize a Jewish person in WWII for allowing Hitler to die if faced with a similar circumstance that the Enterprise's crew found themselves with Nero.

In fact I would be shocked if any of Jew with knowledge of the extent of Hitler's genocidal tendecies would show him any "ethical" mercy whatsoever similar to the Enterprise's offer of assistance to Nero.

Agreed. That would be the feeling. It would be my feeling. But is it a logical feeling? No. When approached rationally, does the action serve any greater purpose? No. Is is it better than achieving true justice? No.

Also, in light of what you say, the interesting thing is all the Nazi hunters who made careers out of tracking down war criminals after the war to bring them back alive to face justice. Hey, if they had decided to put Nero to death after a trial, I wouldn't have cried for him.

Of course, like I've said, Nero wasn't coming out of that alive one way or another, so getting justice in the sense of trying him was moot.
So the question was why fire on him just because he refused rescue when he was disabled, stopped fighting, and doomed anyway? Give the crewmembers who want to escape as much time as possible to get out, and capture them as they do (without endangering the Enterprise).

Agreed. Just because you are doing the ethical thing does not mean you are stupid or have your hands tied. The ethical and lawful approach is much, much more sophisticated than that.
 
I'm not here to make myself "look" like anything...I yam what I yam and dat's all dat I yam....

I'm very "Popeye" today...:guffaw:

Explain to me how it would have been wise to spare Nero? What benefit or gain would there be from that? Do you dismiss the possibility of him coming back or escaping the penal colony to wreck more havoc and kill billions more?

What's the benefit? Just to feeeeeel good?

PISH on that, says I!

Once again, your ignore my statements and carry on as if adding smilies and exclamations points on vapid responses adds more weight to your argument.

Nobody said let him go. Nobody. The arguments that have been proposed break down like so.

1. Arrest him and try him for crimes against sentient lifeforms
2. Let him die in the black hole
3. If he must be killed by the Enterprise and her crew there are much better ways of writing the scene so we don't even have this debate.

Is that simple enough?


Uh...duhhhhh...no...uhhhh...not simple enough for an intellectually challenged dimwit like meee...uhhhh...could you re-explain it? Uhhh...duhhh...I'm not sure I gots it....

Me just wants to see blood, guts and explosions...uhhhh...duhhhh....

Quazar, that is really not necessary. Could you please cut it out?
 
Allow me to use my humble skills of analysis to analyze many of the claims being made here. First, I have to offer a few analyses before I go onto my own argument.

P. 1. This is not an issue of one question.
The issue at hand is more complex than simple issues of whether this is that way or not. We've all been touching on the subject, but I think it needs to be carried, screaming into the daylight. As far as I see it, there are two issues at hand. The first is whether or not what Kirk did was ethical in any sense. That is, were his actions 'right' or 'wrong'. The second issue is whether or not what Kirk and crew did was internally consistent within the characterization of himself in other Trek media. This is important due to a simple issue of Subject-predicate logic.

P. 2. Was what Kirk did ethical?
To even touch upon this discussion, we must make a few basic definitions. The first is "what" ethics is. Ethics, in an academic sense, is simply the study and reflection upon our own moral actions. Now, what is morality? Morality are the 'ideas' of right and wrong, good and evil which we have constructed via our experience and socialization(or innate ideas, go to hell Descartes :P). Hence, Ethics is the study of how to achieve 'moral' actions, that is how do we become 'good' or do 'good'.

Naturally, there is another issue at hand here. There are essentially an incalcuable number of ethical standpoints all throughout reality if you consider the argument that each and every person has their own unique version of Ethics which they abide by. So then how do we determine whether the action is good or bad? Well, many times we can reason it out like Kant did, but others are more content to leave it to religious 'revelation'. So then how do I even consider advancing in this line of discussion with so many ethical positions? Well, I'll analyze several ethical viewpoints briefly, and then place emphasis upon one of them in particular.

I'll start with the one undoubtedly people will want to look at the most, judging from the earlier responses. Egoism. Egoism is the ethical stance revolving around gratification and development of the 'self'. That is, a person who acts only towards their own benefit and interest. Ayn Rand, and Nietzsche are main proponents of this system of ethics. The question here is rather simple. Was Kirk and crew acting to benefit themselves primarily? I think it's plain, as judging from their reactions, that they were in fact acting for their own pleasure. They wanted revenge, so they took it, even though Nero was going to die anyway.

Utilitarianism is similar to Egoism in the sense that it revolves around pleasure, both my own and the pleasure of others. Though, if we look at Jeremy Bentham's Utilitarian Calculus, only one actually takes into consideration other people. In my opinion Bentham's Utilitarianism is really just another form of Egoism. However, other Utilitarian concerns, including Bentham's, include the point of the "Greatest Pleasure", to the "Greatest Number". So in this case we have to wonder; was Kirk acting to bring the "Greatest Pleasure", to the "Greatest Number"? In the way he acted, I am willing to say no. By killing Nero in an anonymous, ignoble manner he deprives the rest of the Federation from the 'pleasure' of satisfaction. That is to say, because Justice has not been 'done', they will not get the pleasure of seeing Nero tried, and then eventually executed. As well, his actions did not necessarily prevent Nero from causing other harm to other people in the future, as there are other actions which could have had a similar effect. For instance, there are two considerations here. The first is that Utilitarianism is only concerned with the consequence of an action. That is, whether it has a direct causal effect upon creating 'more' happiness. The second is in another point, Utilitarians usually emphasize the value of the law, and actions which unnecessarily break the law are considered to be negative effects. The Utilitarian argument is rendered moot, I think, based upon how you consider it. The situation can be considered here in two ways. One; Kirk killing Nero causally brought more 'pleasure' to the universe by preventing him from potentially going back in time(This is also contingent upon that very same point, whether Nero would have been able to go back in time again). Two; Kirk killing Nero did not causally bring more 'pleasure' to the universe. This point is based upon the potential lack of popular 'satisfaction', and the possibility that Nero's vessel would not have survived the black hole, as damaged as it was. Personally, I feel that the second possibility is a little more likely in this situation.

The third viewpoint I'll analyze is called "Deontology". This system can be summarized as being about actions done "because they are right", and "bound by duty, as if they were natural laws". This philosophical system sets the bar rather high, as opposed to setting it rather low like Utilitarianism or Egoism. Actions, first and foremost, are made moral not by the outcome, but by the intent behind them. For example, if Kirk were killing Nero in a sort of 'mercy killing', it could potentially be considered correct. However, at this point the most important thing to do would actually have been to rescue Nero, and then place him under arrest despite the potential damage to his vessel. Again, Deontology is not about outcomes. When confronted with a situation which could spell doom, and Duty dictates that you still face such a fate, the good Deontologist will ultimately act in such a manner.

Now, why is this last point so important? We've already established that at least by one ethical construct approves of Kirk and co's actions. However, Deontology in some form is in fact the binding, pervasive philosophical structure of the Federation and in fact Star Trek as a whole(Removing such a thing falls into a problem, as per P. 3). Things are done because they are the right things to do, not because of consequences or self-aggrandizement. For example, the Prime Directive in Star Trek is only violated when there are other concerns, other duties which supercede it come into play. This would render the Federation as having a form of Rossian Deontology. The Federation, and in fact Kirk as an individual, are Deontological to at least some extent. For Star Trek as a whole, I think the best example is TNG episode "Where Silence has Lease", when Picard refused to sacrifice one third to one half of his crew due to the innate 'wrongness' of using his crew like that. Another example is in TOS episode "Who Mourns for Adonais?", where Lt. Palamis chooses Duty over personal self gratification. Yes, this message is even present in the Original Series. They are plainly not Utilitarian(The majority would likely survive the encounter), nor are they Egoist(There was no effort to self-aggrandize or work towards ones benefit).

P. 3. Was what Kirk did internally consistent with other Kirk portrayals?

This is a more touchy issue, as well as being more of a corollary, but I primarily want to discuss why this question is important before we go on to analyze the actual issue. Why, then, is it important if this Kirk is matching that Kirk's portrayal? In short, this has to do with the issue of identification in Subject-predicate logics.

The Law of Identity states thus; Something is, what it is. Or more simply, A=A. Now, in subject-predicate logics, this means that we can identify A by the sum total of its predicates. For instance, I know this chair is my chair because it shares the predicates of what I recognise as being 'my chair', from color, to shape, to position in my room. To be more precise, then, A=A1, A2, A3, A4, A5, and so on. Any such list will be quite large at times(Which promps Metaphysicians such as Leibniz to state only "God" could figure out a list like that). To bring us back on course, this means that to identify "Kirk", he has to have the predicates of Kirk. That is, shape, size, voice, personality, etc. Other Modern philosophers like John Locke, however, have made it clear that we can't identify a person with their body, so we can discount physical differences. Besides, this is supposed to be Kirk at a younger age, so we can accept physical differences. So then we have to look at the qualities of his personality, the true defining feature of a person.

Why is this line of digression important though? Simply, because if ST11 Kirk does not fit the predicates of TOS Kirk, then he is not that Kirk. He may have the same name, shape, and he may be intended to be a different form of the 'same character', but he would not be the same Kirk. This would be like two twins, each named John Smith. They may look, walk, speak, and on a genetic level be intended to be the 'same person', but if there are distinct differences (IE; spatial location, experiencial history, personality), then they are not the same person. Naturally, as we're dealing with a fictional character 'spatial location' isn't as much of an issue. However, despite both John Smiths having similar attributes, having the same name, and being made from the same 'source material', they are plainly not the same person. Consider a more stark example. There is a man named James Mills. There is another man named James Mills across the country. By simple virtue of their name, they are not the same person.

Now, to bring us back in line again, ST11 Kirk is to be expected to have less in common with the TOS Kirk. He is, after all, supposed to be a 'younger' Kirk. However, certain fundamental things should still be there, though in less refined senses. However, in that same breath, he cannot be too dissimilar, because then he fails to meet the necessary predicates to be identified as "Kirk". He then becomes another, different Kirk. An entirely different being. For example, we recognise Mirror-Kirk from "Mirror, Mirror" to be a different Kirk from a different timeline because his predicates are different. We can't appreciate the relationships the Original Kirk had through this being, because this is an entirely different Kirk. I find this especially hard to accept because this 'new' Kirk is not intended to be a 'mirror' Kirk at all, but merely the 'same' Kirk thrust into an alternate time line.

This then means that if the predicates differ from the source material, he becomes a different character. He cannot be valued, nor can any of the characters be valued, as the crew that we know and love. The effect of ethics upon this is thus; he is then excised from the moral constraints of the "Original" Kirk. He can then act however he wants as an original character, which opens up a slew of other issues, chief among them the reason for enjoying the movie, which I won't go into at this point.

Now, the problem is that I don't think he really does act in a consistent manner. The original Kirk was individualistic, confident bordering on prideful, but still largely in control. This 'new' Kirk is completely out of control, without the charm or cunning that the 'old' Kirk had. I find it hard to believe that he would see so much development from when he was 25, to when he was 31 when he became the captain of the "Enterprise". As well, he's vengeful, even against an enemy who is ultimately weak and defenseless. This is not what Kirk would do(See TOS: Arena). There are likewise distinct differences in their approaches to issues. 'Old' Kirk approaching them based upon principle and personal pride, and 'New' Kirk, who seems to exist solely upon impulse and self gratification. Even when 'Old' Kirk borders on actions of the 'New' Kirk, it's always when his emotions have gotten the best of him and broken down his rational sense. It's a flaw, there, not a virtue as demonstrated by ST11.


That's enough for now, I'll post this and then work on the rest of my argument while you guys read. :>
 
ACK! it was W.D. Ross that I meant, not Rawls :(

Thanks for the memory jog, Heimdall. That was stupid of me :(

Edit: Excellent post, btw. Fantastic stuff.
 
Good post-but I don't think its an accurate description of the crew's motivations for killing Nero,just because when they did they weren't aware of following a philosopical ideal-they were getting even by killing a man who mudered billions in cold blood.


BUT! They did offer to rescue him before pulling the trigger-and why would they do that?It is not likely that any tribunal would punish Kirk for ordering Neros destruction ,so we can remove the fear of punishment from consideration.Likewise for Spock,who already left the bridge for losing it on duty-and he wasn't in primary command at the time in any case.

Since punishment isn't a valid reason,why did Kirk,specifically, offer Nero asylum after what he did? We don't need a court of law to determine what is already evident-that Nero is guilty of mass murder.Killing him without a singe comm signal would have been forgiven,maybe rewarded,but Kirk isn't a murderer.In that moment and before when he had Nero at phaser point on the Narada,he chooses the ethically righeous way of giving Nero the option to change his ways versus pulling the trigger-and in the black hole,Nero rejected any offer to correct his ways.At that point Kirk warping away to leave Nero to die has the same outcome as blowing away the Narada via phasers-Nero dies either way,and a forced rescue of Nero and crew at the event horizon of a singularity is hazardous-and to what end?Assuming Nero could be extracted and returned to the Enterprise without getting killed in the process,there would be a trial,a press hoopla,months of debates and spectacle-and Nero dies anyway.

If being sucked into a black hole won't convert someone, a courtroom will certainly fail to inspire 'correction'.Nero being paraded as a public spectacle before a state ordered execution is a sorry reason to expose more Starfleet lives to danger,when busting some torps at the scene eliminates the threat,carries out the inevitable and requested sentence,and closes the chapter with the least exposure to danger by all parties involved.

Remember - it was Nero,not Kirk,who made the decision to die by phaser fire rather than live under law.
 
Good post-but I don't think its an accurate description of the crew's motivations for killing Nero,just because when they did they weren't aware of following a philosopical ideal-they were getting even by killing a man who mudered billions in cold blood.


BUT! They did offer to rescue him before pulling the trigger-and why would they do that?It is not likely that any tribunal would punish Kirk for ordering Neros destruction ,so we can remove the fear of punishment from consideration.Likewise for Spock,who already left the bridge for losing it on duty-and he wasn't in primary command at the time in any case.

Since punishment isn't a valid reason,why did Kirk,specifically, offer Nero asylum after what he did? We don't need a court of law to determine what is already evident-that Nero is guilty of mass murder.Killing him without a singe comm signal would have been forgiven,maybe rewarded,but Kirk isn't a murderer.In that moment and before when he had Nero at phaser point on the Narada,he chooses the ethically righeous way of giving Nero the option to change his ways versus pulling the trigger-and in the black hole,Nero rejected any offer to correct his ways.At that point Kirk warping away to leave Nero to die has the same outcome as blowing away the Narada via phasers-Nero dies either way,and a forced rescue of Nero and crew at the event horizon of a singularity is hazardous-and to what end?Assuming Nero could be extracted and returned to the Enterprise without getting killed in the process,there would be a trial,a press hoopla,months of debates and spectacle-and Nero dies anyway.

If being sucked into a black hole won't convert someone, a courtroom will certainly fail to inspire 'correction'.Nero being paraded as a public spectacle before a state ordered execution is a sorry reason to expose more Starfleet lives to danger,when busting some torps at the scene eliminates the threat,carries out the inevitable and requested sentence,and closes the chapter with the least exposure to danger by all parties involved.

Remember - it was Nero,not Kirk,who made the decision to die by phaser fire rather than live under law.

Let's take this point by point.
"Good post-but I don't think its an accurate description of the crew's motivations for killing Nero,just because when they did they weren't aware of following a philosopical ideal-they were getting even by killing a man who mudered billions in cold blood."
That's exactly the point. That's all they were doing. Pure egoist self-gratification. They're exactly the same as Nero. Agent A sees Bad Event B set against them, and they want to get even with Agent C. This describes the motivations for each group.

"BUT! They did offer to rescue him before pulling the trigger-and why would they do that?It is not likely that any tribunal would punish Kirk for ordering Neros destruction ,so we can remove the fear of punishment from consideration.Likewise for Spock,who already left the bridge for losing it on duty-and he wasn't in primary command at the time in any case."
There are a multitude of reasons for offering it. On the most egoist side, to gloat. Come, beg me for your life. However, I don't feel that's one the movie is directly trying to suggest. Actually, a tribunal, a real tribunal in Federation style, would be very likely to punish Kirk for such an action. As proven before, he's no better than Nero is, so he's a loose cannon. At the very least, he would not be reliable. Personal character is incredibly important for the Federation. That's why they had the Kobayashi Maru test in the first place.

"At that point Kirk warping away to leave Nero to die has the same outcome as blowing away the Narada via phasers-Nero dies either way,and a forced rescue of Nero and crew at the event horizon of a singularity is hazardous-and to what end?Assuming Nero could be extracted and returned to the Enterprise without getting killed in the process,there would be a trial,a press hoopla,months of debates and spectacle-and Nero dies anyway."
The outcome doesn't change the choices made. If I murder you five seconds from death, I am still maliciously taking a life. If I delight in causing your death, it is also malicious. It doesn't matter if you're fifty years or fifty seconds from dying. I am still committing murder. However, if I try to save Nero, but ultimately pull away, I made the choice to try and 'surpass' the average of moral life. Even if I pull away without doing anything, I did not choose to "murder" him, because I'm not directly acting to force a state upon him. Notice why it's so important to stress "intent", now? For instance, if they had killed him for other reasons such as a mercy killing, or for an expressed fear of him making it through the black hole and killing others. This however would require the writers to clue us in on that motivation. In my opinion, their gleeful reactions changes the entire moral worth of the situation. For example, if they had done the same thing, but in a more somber manner, it would be different.

If being sucked into a black hole won't convert someone, a courtroom will certainly fail to inspire 'correction'.Nero being paraded as a public spectacle before a state ordered execution is a sorry reason to expose more Starfleet lives to danger,when busting some torps at the scene eliminates the threat,carries out the inevitable and requested sentence,and closes the chapter with the least exposure to danger by all parties involved.
The point isn't "correction". It's very likely the court case would find him guilty of war crimes and deal with him as per their rules. I don't think they even have the death penalty at this point(See The Menagerie 1+2), but the point is that they strengthen their society by increasing their internal consistency. In essence, it serves as proof that the Federation, and Humans, can rise above what can be "expected" of them and react in a reasonable and honorable manner. In essence, to do the right thing, not the thing that makes them feel better. However, by embracing such actions they weaken the moral fiber of the Federation, and hence open it up for the old human weaknesses to again take hold.

And the problem here is the same as with vigilantism. The outcome may be inevitable, but it has to be handled via Law, not pure self-satisfaction. Legal processes depart individuals from the action, and allow a more reasoned and orderly process. As well, due to the investigative process they can learn more about the events of the crimes and then prevent such a thing from happening again.

As well, by the time Nero is in the black hole, he is no longer a threat. His ship is crippled, and it's unlikely that it could even survive its initial journey again. Nero at this point is defenseless and weak. As such, there is no "threat" for the torps to dispatch. Just a weakened enemy(Like the Gorn in Arena), subject to Kirk's orders. He didn't even have any more "Red Matter", as the Jellyfish had already been destroyed, so that's no longer a threat either.

"Remember - it was Nero,not Kirk,who made the decision to die by phaser fire rather than live under law."
Well, no, actually. Kirk did actually ultimately make that choice by "pulling the trigger". Nero didn't mind control Kirk into doing it. Ergo, it's absurd to say that Nero "made the choice for him" in this case.


Edit; clarified a point.
 
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First point-Kirk offered a choice to Nero-accept his assistance and live,or refuse and die.Nero is an adult Romulan,and as such has to make decisions based on the consequences of those decisions.The consequences were death,or accepting the Kirks offer to live.He chose the former with no coercion or outside influence.

As Nero rejected Kirks offer of his own free will,he accepted the consequences of that action-death.Whether it be by phaser or extreme gravity doesn't change the truth that Nero choose death over life of his own free will.

You have failed to adress the practical problem at hand-how to retreive a resistant Nero from the event horizon of a singularity and get out yourself,even though he's made his choice ,as it were.Even saying you could get him out alive for tribunal,he's chosen death.Grabbing him from the Narada would be kidnapping by taking him against his will.Assuming its even practically possible to extract Nero at that point,you'd be kidnapping someone to serve the Law.You'd ethically be at the same level as shooting him down by taking someone against their will-and if you say that he's killed enough people to warrant being taken against his will,that's crossing the same ethical standpoint as deciding to kill him.

Yes,law enforcement takes people who commit crimes out of their homes-but through due process of law.Seizing Nero against his spoken wishes when given another peaceful option is a worse ethical 'violation' as blowing him outta the sky,as hed be removed against his will-and since his will was to die in agony versus being rescued,it would be a greater ethical violation to rescue him.
 
First point-Kirk offered a choice to Nero-accept his assistance and live,or refuse and die.Nero is an adult Romulan,and as such has to make decisions based on the consequences of those decisions.The consequences were death,or accepting the Kirks offer to live.He chose the former with no coercion or outside influence.
Correct, but the choices were not "Be rescued" versus "Get murdered by a vengeful Kirk". There's a difference between such a choice and "Get Rescued" versus "Get ripped apart in a black hole".

Now, here's another problem. Did Kirk ask each and every member of Nero's crew if they wanted to get murdered versus getting rescued? As stated, Murder is still Murder even if you kill someone who is five seconds from death.

"You have failed to adress the practical problem at hand-how to retreive a resistant Nero from the event horizon of a singularity and get out yourself,even though he's made his choice ,as it were.Even saying you could get him out alive for tribunal,he's chosen death.Grabbing him from the Narada would be kidnapping by taking him against his will.Assuming its even practically possible to extract Nero at that point,you'd be kidnapping someone to serve the Law.You'd ethically be at the same level as shooting him down by taking someone against their will-and if you say that he's killed enough people to warrant being taken against his will,that's crossing the same ethical standpoint as deciding to kill him."
Kidnapping him against his will is essentially what happens whenever you arrest someone. Would you say a police officer is committing grievous ethical crimes when he is arresting a drug dealer against his will? No. This is because the action is based upon Duty. I think it goes without saying that most criminals do in fact get arrested 'against their wills'. That is, by some power or another they're being forced to comply with the wishes of the Police. As stated, there is no difference between Kirk arresting Nero here, and a common police officer arresting a random street criminal.

Yes,law enforcement takes people who commit crimes out of their homes-but through due process of law.Seizing Nero against his spoken wishes when given another peaceful option is a worse ethical 'violation' as blowing him outta the sky,as hed be removed against his will-and since his will was to die in agony versus being rescued,it would be a greater ethical violation to rescue him.
How would this be any different? You have a governmental entity arresting an unwilling criminal. Police officers don't shoot criminals because they're resisting. The only time they're allowed, ideally, to shoot criminals with lethal force is when the criminal is directly acting to endanger someone's life. That is, holding a gun to someone's head. This "kidnapping" argument is not particularly strong in my opinion. Let's analyze the repercussions of Tribunal versus Murdering Nero, as you seem so intent upon doing 'as Nero wills'.

When you kill someone, you end their lives. It's already proven to my satisfaction that Nero did not Choose being murdered, as opposed to a death in the black hole. The effect of this is that you are permanently ending their ability to self actualize. Thereafter, Nero would never be able to will or self actualize again. Killing someone can only be made correct if it is an action of Duty, and not Self-gratification. When you kill someone simply out of a sense of revenge, it is tantamount to Murder.

When you kidnap someone against their will, you momentarily disrupt their ability to self actualize. However, this isn't a negative ethical marker as you are performing an action of Duty as according to your role in society. This is one of the paths to Justice, in essence. As well, because the Federation doesn't have the death penalty, it's likely Nero will see life imprisonment by the Federation. When it comes to Self-actualization, many prisoners in the past have done this, and even had epiphanies about their crimes. It's entirely likely that such a thing could happen here, as many people today can and do 'find themselves' in prison. This is especially true if Nero is somehow able to contribute to an effort to save Romulus from being destroyed, or at least save the people on Romulus from being killed(IE; giving them information, etc). However, this analysis is not contingent upon him ACTUALLY falling into this path, so much as him being given the POSSIBILITY of falling into this path.

As well, once again, there's also the issue of Nero's crew.
 
The Narada has already survived a trip through a black hole. It could do so again, and Nero could start his genocidal campaign again, in another time - even without red matter, his ship could sterilize a planet in minutes - any Star Trek warship could.
This is an unacceptable risk - it alone justifies killing Nero and his crew. Ethically, that's utilitarianism.

Nero and his crew, with intent, killed 6 BILLION sentient beings.
6 BILLION - that's an abstraction; 100 lives are not enough to understand this unfathomable loss.
And Nero&co's guilt is beyond doubt.
Deontology - it involves following a moral code regardless of the outcome - but what moral code? What are the tenets of this moral code? Is it moral to punish a monster or is it moral to let him go? Different people respond differently because they have diverse morals. A very strong case can be made that it is deontologically moral to punish these beings.
At Nuremberg, nazi war criminals were hanged. Was this moral? In my opinion, when dealing with beings that are only human at the genetic level, it is.
And these nazi war criminals were as innocent as new-born babies by comparizon to Nero - so it is deontologically moral to kill Nero - again, in my opinion.

And, of course, Kirk also had his revenge by killing Nero - ethically, this is egoism.
 
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The Narada has already survived a trip through a black hole. It could do so again, and Nero could start his genocidal campaign again, in another time - even without red matter, his ship could sterilize a planet in minutes - any Star Trek warship could.
This is an unacceptable risk - it alone justifies killing Nero and his crew. Ethically, that's utilitarianism.
There are two problems here.

The Narada survived a trip through the black hole before, yes, but this is before it was critically damaged by the Jellyfish. I find it unlikely that it would survive the trip as damaged as it was. As stated before, as well, he is depriving the populations of the Federation from the "pleasure" of having justice be done. Many would not like it. Likewise, they are not finding a way to prevent this in the future. Ergo, there could be further 'harm' in the future by not finding out how to prevent such actions. There's a very weak utilitarian argument here. It is contingent upon whether or not the Narada could survive in the state that it was in. As we all know, even things 'made' or 'capable' of doing something can only do them until they're damaged enough to render this action impossible. For instance, a jet craft is 'made' and 'capable' of flying through the air. If you cause sufficient damage to it, it will no longer fly even though it is 'made' to do such a thing and is 'capable' of doing such a thing in optimum circumstances.

At Nuremberg, nazi war criminals were hanged. Was this moral? In my opinion, when dealing with beings that are only human at the genetic level, it is.
There's a distinct difference at Nuremberg than here. The Nazi War Criminals were hanged, yes. But they were not summarily executed. This is distinctly different from walking up to them and shooting them in the head. We didn't even do that with Saddam Hussein. They were passed through due process of law. No one here has been saying that Nero should have been set free.

Deontology - it involves following a moral code regardless of the outcome - but what moral code? What are the tenets of this moral code? Is it moral to punish a monster or is it moral to let him go? Different people respond differently because they have diverse morals. A very strong case can be made that it is deontologically moral.
And these nazi war criminals were as innocent as new-born babies by comparizon to Nero - so it is deontologically moral to kill Nero - again, in my opinion.
I think you're misunderstanding Deontology. Deontology is not about simply following a random "moral code". To explain in a different light I'll turn to Lawrence M. Hinman; "(Kant's) ethical theory rests on three central insights...

1. An action has moral worth if it is done for the sake of duty.

2. An action is morally correct if its maxim can be willed as a universal law.

3. We should treat humanity, whether in ourselves or other people, always as an end in itself and never merely as a means to an end."

So, it's not just about following a moral code regardless of the outcome. It is, in Hinman's words; "The act is done just because it is the right thing to do; in other words, it is done for the sake of duty. When it comes to the actual moral code, Kant actually has a lot to say on the issue. For example, we have to follow the Categorical Imperative, and actions can not be based upon "cause and effect" relations. For instance; I can't have a "maxim" to kill someone if they cross me. This is based upon a cause-effect relation, where they 'cause' a negative emotional reaction from me, and the 'effect' is me killing them in retaliation. As well, this treats the person as a means to an end, and not an End in and of themselves. Likewise, because of this nature of cause and effect relations, we can not use the difference between Nero's crew and the amount of people the Narada killed as a tally. There is no Deontological difference between the person who kills 100 people and the person who kills 6 billion. For example, if Osama Bin Laden walked into my room right now, I would not have a deontological way to murder him. This is because I would be using him as a means to an end, for instance; my personal self satisfaction.

Here's the crux of the issue. The Egoist argument and the Deontological argument are at odds. The Utilitarian argument, not necessarily. Something cannot be Egoist in this sense, and Deontological at the same time. For instance, Kirk was plainly after revenge. This means he is not doing the action out of a sense of Duty, but personal self pleasure. So which is it, was he doing it out of Revenge? Or Duty? You yourself admit he was after revenge, so he was not acting in a Deontological manner. In contrast to your claims, a very WEAK case can be made that it's deontologically moral.


On Egoism; I'm inclined to agree. But this renders him in the same state as Nero. Both are Egoists acting to satisfy their own senses of revenge. They're both in the same boat. In essence Kirk is showing that he's "Bad, but not as bad as Nero". Why isn't he as bad? I have no idea. He'd likely be doing the same thing if he experienced the same thng that Nero did.
 
I would've done EXACTLY what Kirk and Spock did.

But that's not the point. Not what you would've done. What Kirk HAS done before - spared someone when it's easier to kill him or her. Blowing away Nero was out of character and a huge lost moment.

Seriously - I THOUGHT this was to be THE "Trek" moment of the movie: Kirk would spare an evil guy bent on vengeance because of grief. Obviously I was disappointed. ST ends up being just a big slam-bang action flick with trek characters who don't act like how we "thought" they did.

Compliments and gratitude to the OP for voicing my thoughts and concern!
 
Heimdall

About utilitarianism - I said there was an unacceptable risk that the Narada can survive the black hole.
The ship survived a black hole once before, and didn't appear damaged by the Jellyfish.
The narada had a 99% chance of surviving? - definitely not.
50% - maybe.
10% - definitely. Considering the certainty of genocide if the Narada survived, this IS an unacceptable risk.

Deontology.
A question - hanging those nazi criminals - after their trial - was deontologically correct?
What about convicting criminals in the court of law?

Egoism - Kirk's actions can be interpreted as egoist. But we were not inside his head - perhaps he killed Nero for utilitarian or deontological reasons (his actions can be interpreted in this way, too).
 
Heimdall

About utilitarianism - I said there was an unacceptable risk that the Narada can survive the black hole.
The ship survived a black hole once before, and didn't appear damaged by the Jellyfish.
The narada had a 99% chance of surviving? - definitely not.
50% - maybe.
10% - definitely. Considering the certainty of genocide if the Narada survived, this IS an unacceptable risk.

Deontology.
A question - hanging those nazi criminals - after their trial - was deontologically correct?
What about convicting criminals in the court of law?

Egoism - Kirk's actions can be interpreted as egoist. But we were not inside his head - perhaps he killed Nero for utilitarian or deontological reasons (his actions can be interpreted in this way, too).


Point by point.

About utilitarianism - I said there was an unacceptable risk that the Narada can survive the black hole.
The ship survived a black hole once before, and didn't appear damaged by the Jellyfish.
The narada had a 99% chance of surviving? - definitely not.
50% - maybe.
10% - definitely. Considering the certainty of genocide if the Narada survived, this IS an unacceptable risk.

And here's the problem. We're working with things that are incredibly uncertain. This is the inherent issue with Utilitarianism, it's too based upon predictions. As stated before, we're still running into the issues of not giving the peoples of the Federation "closure", and not being able to adequately 'learn' from the event.

Now, because Utilitarianism is based upon outcome. We're working with, in your words, a 10% chance that Kirk was operating in a correct manner.

I am unwilling to make a clear judgment call in terms of Utilitarian thought in this issue, so I'm going to say it's "Uncertain" in Utilitarian terms.


Deontology.
A question - hanging those nazi criminals - after their trial - was deontologically correct?
What about convicting criminals in the court of law?

Yes, because it is an action born out of a sense of Reason and Duty. This is because it is done through rule of law, and not base impulse(Like a summary execution).

Egoism - Kirk's actions can be interpreted as egoist. But we were not inside his head - perhaps he killed Nero for utilitarian or deontological reasons (his actions can be interpreted in this way, too).

No, but we can see his reaction, and that belays any real sense of 'Duty'. We can only operate off of what we're given by the movie or the writers, and I do not believe we have any evidence to suggest Kirk was operating in anything but an Egoist manner.
 
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