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Not rescuing Nero: thumbs up or down?

Another corollary point.

If we're really going down the Utilitarian route, we're no longer dealing with the core of "Star Trek". There have been entire movies and episodes of Star Trek which go against relying upon Utilitarian thought.

For instance, take the issue of Data. In the episode "The Measure of a Man", there was an entire conflict based upon whether or not Data was 'property' of Starfleet. This was because Commander Maddox wanted to conduct experiments upon Data that would help create a 'race' of Datas - at the risk of destroying the 'core' of the original Data. Creating the 'race' of Datas would have been the Utilitarian decision, but valuing Data as a sovereign, unique individual was not, and in fact a Deontological decision.

Another example. In "The Search for Spock", Kirk made the decision that what was best for everyone did not trump what was best for one person, or what was "right". This is also a choice he routinely made throughout TOS.

However, this being said, I would actually have a lot of respect for the next Trek if they show Kirk realizing that what he did was 'wrong', due to this Deontological problem. If he continues in this fashion, he's ultimately betraying the core message of Star Trek, and in fact Star Trek stops being Star Trek at this point and becomes something... generic. As far as I'm concerned, Star Trek will lose everything that makes it special.
 
Kirk offered to Nero when it was over that he would assist in rescuing him, and Nero more or less said that he wanted to go down with the ship. Kirk obliged him.
 
Nero did tell them where to shove it when they offered him mercy. They reciprocated.
What part of that justifies murder?

Kirk offered to Nero when it was over that he would assist in rescuing him, and Nero more or less said that he wanted to go down with the ship. Kirk obliged him.
Again, what part of that justifies murdering the people on a defenseless, weakened vessel which is likely to be destroyed already?
 
Heimdall

Utilitarianism:
10% is the absolute minimum - if the jellyfish, by some miracle, damaged a critical system from the Narada.
I estimate Narada's chances at 50% or higher - remember, at the beginning of the movie, it traversed a black hole without a scratch - it was in top form when it engaged the Kelvin.

About giving the peoples of the Federation "closure" - this is not an issue. This closure was Nero's death. Nero's trial would have lasted years in which time Nero would have stayed in a confortable Federation prison - by far, a less satisfying closure.

From the utilitarian point of view, I think that Kirk's actions were ethically correct.

Deontology:
I expected the answer to be less abstract. Duty and Reason - can you elaborate?

Kirk was part of the Federation military - entrusted by the people of the Federation with their protection, by any means necessary, including deadly force.

By duty you mean that the action was done because it was the right thing to do?
Nero's execution can very vell be interpreted as being done because it was the right thing to do, because it was part of Kirk's moral code. Does this violate the cause-effect rule? So does convicting a thief.

Or you mean that the judges fulfill the responsibilities given to them by the society? Kirk can be viewed as fulfilling the responsibilities given to him by the Federation. And I don't agree that the society is the supreme arbiter of morality, that it has the right to dictate what is moral and not.

By reason you mean - the condemned were proven to be guilty before they were convicted? Nero's guilt is beyond question - there was nothing summary about his execution.

Egoism:
As I said, Kirk's actions are interpretable. You view them as denoting only egoism. I have no problem seeing utilitarian and even deontological motivations beyond them. Only the scenarist knows for sure.
 
Nero did tell them where to shove it when they offered him mercy. They reciprocated.

Which is exactly why some of us are saying that's out of character for Kirk and Spock. They were no different than Nero. No growth. I find it oddly evil-looking that there was a red light shining on their faces as Kirk and Spock decided Nero's fate.

One thing Orci and Kurtzman did to keep from completely complicating matters is have some of Nero's crew bail out on him at the end. No one apparently tried to escape. If Narada had both stopped fighting and there had been escape pods and shuttles coming from the Narada as Kirk and Spock fired on the ship, well, that's a whole different kettle of fish again. Very serious questions, there. Because it would mean that despite what Nero said, the crew was abandoning the ship. Of course, as it is, Kirk and Spock didn't give the crew a chance to decide whether or not to save themselves.
 
About deontology being the essence of star trek.

In TNG: "I, Hugh", Picard chooses not to use a potentially devastating weapon against the borg, because it would mean using a drone as a means to an end.
As a result, the borg continued to exist, to kill and assimilate. How many tens, hundreds of BILLIONS suffered and perished a a result? Their blood stains Picard's hands too, because he could stop the borg and he didn't.
You think he made the right, moral choice? I don't.

On the other hand, in TNG: "The measure of a man", Picard made the right decision and acted morally.

My point? Deontology has its limits. When the lives of billions are at stake, things get complicated.


PS:
Can you explain how convicting a criminal is deontologically correct? It appears to violate the cause-effect rule at the very least.
 
Utilitarianism:
10% is the absolute minimum - if the jellyfish, by some miracle, damaged a critical system from the Narada.
I estimate Narada's chances at 50% or higher - remember, at the beginning of the movie, it traversed a black hole without a scratch - it was in top form when it engaged the Kelvin.

Again, this is why the Utilitarian argument is shakey. It's too uncertain.


About giving the peoples of the Federation "closure" - this is not an issue. This closure was Nero's death. Nero's trial, would have lasted years in which time Nero would have stayed in a confortable Federation prison - by far, a less satisfying closure.

Not necessarily. People don't respond quite the same way if they don't get to enact their vision of Justice. For instance, a society which sees imprisonment as just punishment will not feel the same way about someone being killed in battle. For instance, would the Klingons find that to be a Just punishment? No, they'd find it honorable. Likewise, the Federation does not see 'killing' someone as an accurate solution to the problem. Hence, the people won't have a form of closure because their sense of Justice had not been applied to the situation. The problem is that you're looking at it from how YOU, or 'Other people' today would look at it. Not as how the Federation would look at it. This is why it is entirely possible that the populations of the Federation would have their 'pleasure' hampered by this decision.

Deontology:
I expected the answer to be less abstract. Duty and Reason - can you elaborate?

Kirk was part of the Federation military - entrusted by the people of the Federation with their protection, by any means necessary, including deadly force.

By duty you mean that the action was done because it was the right thing to do?
Nero's execution can very vell be interpreted as being done because it was the right thing to do, because it was part of Kirk's moral code.
Or you mean that the judges fulfill the responsibilities given to them by the society? Kirk can be viewed as fulfilling the responsibilities given to him by the Federation.

Duty has less to do with with actions, and more to do with the thought processes going into the actions. If the actions are in line with duty, for instance, this is the RIGHT thing to do, then it is in line with Duty. If it is done for other reasons, for instance, Revenge, it is not Deontologically moral.

As stated before, Deontology has little or nothing to do with 'following a moral code' regardless of the circumstances, so would you please stop bringing that up? It is entirely about the thought processes which go into making the ethical or unethical decisions.

Here's the problem. Part of what you said is true. But there's a point you need to focus upon. "By duty you mean that the action was done because it was the right thing to do?"

This is somewhat correct. However, let's rephrase. "By duty you mean that the action was done because it was the right thing to do?". This naturally excludes doing the same thing because of other reasons, for instance self interest. I see no evidence that Kirk did what he did out of any sense than Revenge.
Egoism:
As I said, Kirk's actions are interpretable. You view them as denoting only egoism. I have no problem seeing utilitarian and even deontological motivations beyond them. Only the scenarist knows for sure.

This is precisely why we have to confine ourselves to what is presented on screen. What is presented on screen? Delight in the killing of another person. You yourself admitted he was doing this for revenge earlier. There is no evidence that he's doing it out of a sense of duty.
 
About deontology being the essence of star trek.

In TNG: "I, Hugh", Picard chooses not to use a potentially devastating weapon against the borg, because it would mean using a drone as a means to an end.
As a result, the borg continued to exist, to kill and assimilate. How many tens, hundreds of BILLIONS suffered and perished a a result? Their blood stains Picard's hands too, because he could stop the borg and he didn't.
You think he made the right, moral choice? I don't.

On the other hand, in TNG: "The measure of a man", Picard made the right decision and acted morally.

My point? Deontology has its limits. When the lives of billions are at stake, things get complicated.


PS:
Can you explain how convicting a criminal is deontologically correct? It appears to violate the cause-effect rule at the very least.

Do you mean "I, Borg"?
 
Heimdall
Utilitarianism
Yes, it deals with uncertainties, but is not incoherent.

As for "closure" for the Federation - we're not taalking about the klingons. The federates' view on death is identic with today's view - it is not something desirable, regardless of the circumstances. Quite the opposite. The Federation will regard Nero's death as punishment, not honor. Perhaps a punishment more severe than the Federation legal system can give to Nero - in the likely scenario that the death penalty doesn't exist anymore.

Deontology
Very well - so, yo do your duty when you do the right thing - as in you are not motivated by revenge. What motivates you? Your moral code.

At Nuremberg, they executed war criminals - and they were not motivated by revenge. But the result of their actions was the same.

So, if Kirk killed Nero without being motivated by revenge, but by his morals, he acted deontologically.

Egoism
In my first post in this thread, I wanted to express the opinion that human motivations are complex. A person's motivation can contain utilitarian, deontological and egoist facets. But, if deontology is defined as excluding egoism, I can very well see Kirk acting out of utilitarian or deontological imperatives.

What is presented on screen can be interpreted in more than one way.
The real question is - would you have done the same thing?
If yes, then why? If no, again, why? For both answers, there exist moral motivations. Is a moral motivation more moral than another? Or is moral relative?
 
About deontology being the essence of star trek.

In TNG: "I, Hugh", Picard chooses not to use a potentially devastating weapon against the borg, because it would mean using a drone as a means to an end.

You know I wonder that if they had found a way to introduce the virus to the Borg without using Hugh, would Picard still have a problem with it?
 
Now, Deontologically he was right on that issue, as you yourself admit. But I'm not sure if we can say he was "wrong" there due to Utilitarian concerns.

Now, let's analyze the problem with "I, borg". There are two problems that I see.

P. 1. To defeat the Borg in this way is to become the Borg.
Consider the stated goals of the Borg. Simply, this is to assimilate other life forms, grow, and destroy all obstacles to the continual development and growing Perfection of the Borg. The stated mission of the Federation has more to do with a metaphysical perfection. There is a distinct difference, one mentality revolving around physical growth and elimination of threats, and the other around development, either ideological or intellectual.

Consider for the moment, that the "Borg" are not evil. They're just another life form, and as such we can't mindlessly exterminate them just like we can't exterminate any other alien life form. To our eyes they're evil, but in reality they're simply an antagonist. We once thought Klingons were evil as well. In time we may find the Borg to not be 'evil' as well, just an entity. Likewise, it is hard to place value-judgments upon entities which, in essence, do not think for themselves. What right do we have to, not in defense, but in offense, kill the Borg drones who are simply being used? As we now know, due to people like Hugh and Lore's Borg colony, the drones are still 'intact' to a large degree. Their conscious selves are simply repressed (Or modified) under the Borg Collective. In essence, they're similar to the state of Humans in "The Matrix".

Now, with this in mind, what happens when we act the way Picard initially wished in "I, borg"? In essence, our stated mission changes from an ideological and intellectual pursuit of perfection, but a physical one. In essence, this would turn from Ideological and Intellectual perfection, to a desire to assimilate other life forms into their own 'Collective', grow, and destroy all obstacles to the continual development and growing Perfection of the Federation. In essence, the Federation will, by using this method to eliminate a potential threat via Genocide, become the Borg. In a poetic sense they will have lost the war to the Borg, and have become Assimilated by the Borg at an ideological and psychological level if not a physical one. Here I ask; what's the point if taking an action against an antagonistic force will make you actually make you become that antagonistic force itself? For example, the Allied Powers proved they were morally superior to the Nazis by not going on a campaign of Genocide against the German people. This means they did not become the Nazis.

I think in a Utilitarian sense this was a good action from this perspective, because it averted a potential catastrophe later in the Federation's future. For instance, if "the ends justify the means" of this 'new' Borg, there is nothing preventing them from in the end literally becoming the Borg, albeit in another form. For instance, by mandating physically and mentally enhancing 'modifications' to people's bodies, and then so on. Some of the theories I've seen for the origin of the "Strogg" of Quake-fame parrot this idea for how they came to be.

P. 2. The "Invasive Program" is not guaranteed to work, and in fact might not work.
This is because the information they were operating off of was rather incomplete. I suspect this is because of the issue of "privation" when Picard was assimilated. "Privation", is in sense the state where information is withheld from an agent within the world, information which they cannot gain access to. Before we continue though, I have to elaborate upon the "Invasive Program". This was designed to bog down the Borg Collective not through physical power, but through manipulating their own networks with an unsolvable puzzle which would slowly overtake their collective processing power.

In particular I'm referring to the abilities and nature of the Borg Queen. She is not bound by the Collective the way the rest of the Borg are. As such, it is entirely likely that she could reject the invasive program if it really became that much of a problem. Specifically, we do see something like this happening. When Hugh, the drone who was disconnected from the Collective returned to his Cube, the Cube was sent into disarray by his memories of the Enterprise. This is not too dissimilar from what the effects of the "invasive program" would have been. Now, in the end, what happened? The Collective broke the Cube off from the rest of the Borg, thus preventing the issue from 'spilling over' into the rest of the Borg. So, what I'm proposing is somewhat backed up by the way the Borg function. My theory here is that it's possible that the Borg Collective is actually a series of sub-divided smaller collectives, which have a free trade of information. As such, major issues could be isolated to individual sub-categories, and broken off from the Collective to save the rest of the Collective. Likewise, it's still entirely possible for the all too individualistic Borg Queen to literally 'end' a process and erase it from the Collective.

Now, think like a Borg for a moment. If you were to find out who infected the Collective with such a potentially debilitating virus, what are your thoughts going to be? Would the people who infected the Collective not be trying to destroy the Collective? Would this not be a direct threat to the collective as this shows that they not only have the capability, but the intent to destroy the Collective. This means that they are antagonists, and must be eliminated. Could this not provoke a much larger and stronger invasive force of the Borg into Federation territory? Would this not, in actuality, mean that that loss of life is on Picard's hands?


By the way, I have to thank you for bringing up these issues. This has turned out to be really fun to write about!
 
As for "closure" for the Federation - we're not taalking about the klingons. The federates' view on death is identic with today's view - it is not something desirable, regardless of the circumstances. Quite the opposite. The Federation will regard Nero's death as punishment, not honor. Perhaps a punishment more severe than the Federation legal system can give to Nero - in the likely scenario that the death penalty doesn't exist anymore.

I'm not so sure that's actually correct. Remember, the Federation has eliminated the Death Penalty, so the evidence points towards them not viewing Death as an acceptable. Again, we're still coming to the conclusion that killing Nero would be depriving the Federation of their sense of Justice. If killing someone were a part of that sense of justice, why did they eliminate it from their general penal code? People do not place things into their Judicial system that run counter to their sense of Justice.

For instance, consider the American Judicial considerations after the American Revolution. The earlier European standard involved public humiliation and physical pain and disfigurement as punishments. The Americans did not feel this was Justice, so naturally they excluded it from their judicial code. Can we rationally say that even though they excluded it in this fashion, the American concept of Justice still included or revolved around public humiliation or physical pain? No, we cannot.

Very well - so, yo do your duty when you do the right thing - as in you are not motivated by revenge. What motivates you? Your moral code.

Yes, that's true, but the key to Deontology is approaching it from a Deontological perspective, not simply from a 'moral code'. The Deontological perspective would be the Moral Code in question, not, as you stated originally, "some" moral code. There's a difference in consideration here. For instance, being motivated by the Deontological perspective versus the moral code of an Egoist.

"At Nuremberg, they executed war criminals - and they were not motivated by revenge. But the result of their actions was the same.

So, if Kirk killed Nero without being motivated by revenge, but by his morals, he acted deontologically. "


The result doesn't matter. What matters are your intentions. Two people can do the same action but come to radically different moral situations. For instance;

Agent A stops a robber because he realizes that stopping robbers is the right thing to do. He is doing it out of a sense of duty to 'Goodness'

Agent B stops a robber because he realizes that if he stops a robber he can get a lot of respect and influence with his social circles. He is doing this to please himself in the end.

In both situations the effects of their actions are the same. In Utilitarian terms, both actions are the same. However, the first person, Deontologically, is performing a morally upright action. The second is not. This is because the second person is doing it out of a sense of self-interest.

"In my first post in this thread, I wanted to express the opinion that human motivations are complex. A person's motivation can contain utilitarian, deontological and egoist facets. But, if deontology is defined as excluding egoism, I can very well see Kirk acting out of utilitarian or deontological imperatives.

However, the problem here is that it is entirely likely, and much more probable in fact, that he is not acting with Deontological intent, but Egoist intent.

What is presented on screen can be interpreted in more than one way.

Perhaps, but only if you're taking in outside information or constructing other thought patterns for what he was doing independent of what the movie portrays. What we know for certain is that Kirk performed the action, and then took an obvious sense of pleasure out of it. This would not be the action of a Deontologist who would see the action as being detestable. Deontologists want to avoid blood shed whenever possible, as any loss of life is considered awful. In fact, I don't even think this situation would fit "Permissable Harm".
 
"I, Borg"
"To defeat the Borg in this way is to become the Borg."
I do not agree with this notion. Why?

Because the borg attacked the Federation(and god knows how many other civilizations) without any provocation whatsoever. The Federation, on the other hand, would have acted in self-defence if Picard would had used the virus.

It's the difference between murder and killing in self-defense. It's a HUGE difference. Legally, murder is harshly (and justly) punished, unlike self-defense. Acting in self-defense is moral.

By acting aggresively against the borg, the Federation would not betray its principles.

About the borg - it knows the concepts of right and wrong - it assimilated enough people for that. It just doesn't care - right and wrong are irrelevant. And the collective destroys entire species, kills billions as a matter of course.
The borg collective is a genocidal sociopat - it's one of the few things in the universe that can be categorised, without doubt, as evil.
According to deontological ethics, you can't get more evil than that - it literally uses all of sentience in the cosmos as a means to an end.
According to utilitarianism, also, it is immoral - it uses the rest of the universe for his benefit. The greatest good for the few. It doesn't care about what's good for others - it never once asked a species it was about to assimilate if the species agrees to be assimilated; it didn't care that his victims didn't want to die.
The collective is ruled by egoism.

"The "Invasive Program" is not guaranteed to work, and in fact might not work."
True - but, on the other hand, it might work.
The invasive program probably had a very long incubation period, during which time it could spread through the collective. The Queen was a borg after all.

From an utilitarian POV:
If the virus works, you save billions of lives. BILLIONS. You save uncounted civilizations.
If it doesn't, the borg may attack you and kill billions of your people. Or, to be more precise, the collective will come in mass sooner than it would normally come and kill billions. Make no mistake, it will come eventually even if you don't use the weapon.
And you may never again get the chance to use this weapon.

From a deontological POV:
If you don't use the drone, billions will certainly die. This is immoral - you sacrifice billions so that that you can be moral, "the good guy", whatever - that's selfish.
If you use the drone, you're immoral from the start.
As you can see, there is no deontologically moral way out of this situation. The universe doesn't always allow you to have a perfect moral choice. Sometimes, you have 2 bad options and you must choose the lesser evil. That is one of the things I dislike about Star Trek. It's not courageous enough to deal with this situations (with rare exceptions). Too often, the tecnobabble of the week saves the day and the tough choices are conveniantly avoided.

In DS9:"In the pale moonlight" a similar situation was depicted. What do you think about Sisko's choice?
 
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Perhaps, but only if you're taking in outside information or constructing other thought patterns for what he was doing independent of what the movie portrays. What we know for certain is that Kirk performed the action, and then took an obvious sense of pleasure out of it. This would not be the action of a Deontologist who would see the action as being detestable. Deontologists want to avoid blood shed whenever possible, as any loss of life is considered awful. In fact, I don't even think this situation would fit "Permissable Harm".

Doesn't follow. Surely being a Deontologist doesn't commit you to emotional satisfaction from those principles. Assuming that there is a sound deontological reason for killing Nero, you can kill him for that reason, while nevertheless enjoying the action because he's someone you really, really want to kill, even if really wanting to kill him isn't a sound reason for doing the killing. My take was that this is where Spock is coming from.

Kirk has never struck me as any kind of Deontologist, mind -- and that's either version.
 
Star Trek XI
Remember, the Federation has eliminated the Death Penalty, so the evidence points towards them not viewing Death as acceptable/just.

Heimdall, the death penalty was mostly eliminated from today's judicial systems for a number of reasons. Amongst other things, it was considered too harsh.
We can assume it is the same in the Federation - if (and it's a big IF) - the Feds have aliminated the death penalty.
However, I don't think the legislators took into account the murder of 6 BILLION when they eliminated this penalty.

I remind you, in our times, nobody views the hanging of nazi war criminals as unjust - not even the countries that have eliminated the death penalty. Their death is considered just. And what Nero did makes the likes of Hitler, Stalin or Pol Pot look like innocent children.

What is presented on screen can be interpreted in more than one way.

For example, Kirk's motivations are utilitarian/utilitarian and egoist/egoist/utilitarian and deontological.

Perhaps he did't want to revenge Vulcan when he ordered the Narada destroyed, or he gave the order excluding his desire for revenge as a factor in his decision-making process.

In any case, I feel Kirk and Spock are justified in wanting revenge against Nero. I also think that, if the desire for revenge motivated them in any way, their actions are still moral, as long as utilitarian considerations are also included in their decisions.
6 BILLION people dead - you know, if you would start counting now and never stop - mot even for a second -, you would reach 6 billion in 190+ YEARS. What if each one of these "numbers" was a person with dreams, hopes and dislikes - with a life? So much death is inimaginable.
It may not be deontologic, but Nero deserved his fate.
 
Because the borg attacked the Federation(and god knows how many other civilizations) without any provocation whatsoever. The Federation, on the other hand, would have acted in self-defence if Picard would had used the virus.

It's the difference between murder and killing in self-defense. It's a HUGE difference. Legally, murder is harshly (and justly) punished, unlike self-defense. Acting in self-defense is moral.


While there is a difference between self-defense and murder, there are several issues you're not considering here.

One; Self defense requires an immedate threat. That is, a foe which is currently attacking you. It is not 'self defense' when you attack an enemy that has attacked you in the past, but is no longer attacking you. The borg, however, are an undetermined threat. It's known they will likely attack again, but it is unknown when. It could be five days, or five hundred years for all we know.

Two; the Drones of the Borg are incapable of making their own decisions. They're in fact forced to obey due to their nature, and are in fact captives. You're not just killing Borg, but innocent people who the Borg took control of. These people are simply vessels for the Collective to enact its constructs. Why are these innocent captives so unimportant? You'd also be killing billions of these.


True - but, on the other hand, it might work.
The invasive program probably had a very long incubation period, during which time it could spread through the collective. The Queen was a borg after all.


Yes, she was, but she wasn't as tied to the network as the rest of the Borg were. She retains nearly all of her personality(or at least some sort of individual personality), and can act independently. The Invasive Program requires a long incubation period, during which it slowly grows. If it starts to sap resources it's quite likely it could be recognised as a threat before it truly hampers the Borg, again as seen from Hugh's example in his own Cube. It's unlikely, when we consider such examples, that this would truly work. The Collective does have the ability to purge undesired attributes.

According to deontological ethics, you can't get more evil than that - it literally uses all of sentience in the cosmos as a means to an end.

This is actually contingent upon the ability to choose. For instance, a Lion in the savannah kills other animals, and eats them. It thereby uses the other animals as a means to an end. The Collective as a whole, the Borg Queen notwithstanding, does not have the consciousness required to make an ethical choice. They are a force of nature, like the lion. I can agree that the Borg Queen could be considered evil, but the rest of the Collective is actually influenced and controlled by the Queens. The Collective as a "whole" does not have the ability to choose, ergo not being 'evil' by Deontological standards.

According to utilitarianism, also, it is immoral - it uses the rest of the universe for his benefit. The greatest good for the few. It doesn't care about what's good for others - it never once asked a species it was about to assimilate if the species agrees to be assimilated; it didn't care that his victims didn't want to die.
The collective is ruled by egoism.


Well, not entirely. It's just a force. It has no real 'conscience' outside of the Borg Queen(Who can actually be described as Evil, but she is an entity somewhat distinct from the Collective). Likewise, remember that when you're assimilated you don't really 'die', you simply become a part of the Collective. As well, they don't see it as the greatest good for the few, they see it as adding others to their perfection. This is another problem with Utilitarianism, it is so incredibly subjective. It's hard to determine is Action A is actually the most beneficial.

You're almost correct, I think. The Collective is ruled by an egoistic being. Consider a Computer Virus. Someone makes it, and then unleashes it upon the world. It then spreads, destroying computers. Is this virus "evil"? I would say no, because it has no choice in the matter. It is simply an entity which can only operate upon what it is designed to operate like; like the Borg.

From an utilitarian POV:
If the virus works, you save billions of lives.
If it doesn't, the borg may attack you and kill billions of your people. Or, to be more precise, the collective will come in mass sooner than it would normally come and kill billions. Make no mistake, it will come eventually even if you don't use the weapon.
And you may never again get the chance to use this weapon.


This again casts the Utilitarian point of view into a hazy or uncertain field. However, let's look at it again.

We're dealing with, as you state, a gamble. The chances are unlikely that it would actually work. So we're dealing with an issue of time. I agree, eventually the Borg would come. This is why they symbolize the Jungian "Shadow". However your own argument works against the concept of Utilitarianism. If it doesn't and as judging from Hugh's example, it wouldn't, this means that they would likely attack sooner rather than later. If the Borg attack sooner, the Federation doesn't stand much of a chance(As seen by examples like Wolf 359). However, if the Borg attack later, after military preperations had been made, the Federation stand a much greater chance.

Now, here's the problem. Didn't you earlier mention that even a 10% chance of having billions die is unacceptable? I'm noticing a degree of inconsistency in your judgment calls. Likewise, in the canon universe the Borg /do not/ attack in a large force. The problem here is that you're not seeing the problem. Sure, the virus might work. But on the other hand it also might NOT work. And as seen from the example of Hugh, it's likely /not/ to work.

From my analysis, I'm finding that the properly Utilitarian approach is in line with the Deontological one. By using the drone you risking the immediate extermination of your entire civilization in exchange for an unlikely chance at eliminating another civilization

If you don't use the drone, billions will certainly die. This is immoral - you sacrifice billions so that that you can be moral, "the good guy", whatever - that's selfish.

As stated before, you can see the same exact result BY using the drone. I see no difference here. We're dealing with two potentialities where billions die. One potentially sooner than the other(Using the drone), and instigated. The other is later, and not instigated by brash actions.

As well, you have it reversed. A person doing it so they can be moral is not acting Deontologically. They are acting to self-aggrandize-Egoism. A person acting Deontologically in this point is doing it because it's the right thing to do. This is not selfish.

If you use the drone, you're immoral from the start.

Agreed.

As you can see, there is no deontologically moral way out of this situation. The universe doesn't always allow you to have a perfect moral choice. Sometimes, you have 2 bad options and you must choose the lesser evil.

No, there is a Deontological path. Not using the Drone. See? That's simple. The problem is that you're using Utilitarianism to judge Deontology, thus establishing the A Priori assumption that Utilitarianism is the correct Moral path. This makes sense, because we live in a Utilitarian society.

As well, didn't Kirk himself say that he doesn't believe in the "no-win" scenario? :P

In DS9:"In the pale moonlight" a similar situation was depicted. What do you think about Sisko's choice?

The thing with DS9 is that it often deals with situations where one has to make compromises with ones ideology. However, W. D. Ross deals with such a situation. He says that, Deontologically it may be more important to act upon one Duty over another. However, this shouldn't be a Consequentialist or Quantitative reasoning. We can't go, for instance "I should kill these five people to save those six people". In Sisko's situation, he was determining that some of his Duties were less important than others in certain cases. Specifically, his Duty to the Federation and the preservation of his ideals are more important than his duty to be honest and not to lie. This is also a Deontological position.
 
Heimdall, the death penalty was mostly eliminated from today's judicial systems for a number of reasons. Amongst other things, it was considered too harsh.
We can assume it is the same in the Federation - if (and it's a big IF) - the Feds have aliminated the death penalty.
However, I don't think the legislators took into account the murder of 6 BILLION when they eliminated this penalty.


The Federation have eliminated the Death Penalty. It's been stated numerous times in the series(For instance, Menagerie 1+2). And you prove my point, they don't believe it fits into their form of Justice, and this is all we can operate from. Now, while they likely didn't consider the death of 6 billion, they certainly considered numerous other atrocities (Hitler, Philip Green, etc). Deontologically, it doesn't matter if you kill one person or five trillion. All that matters is the degree of malice in your thoughts.


I remind you, in our times, nobody views the hanging of nazi war criminals as unjust - not even the countries that have eliminated the death penalty. Their death is considered just. And what Nero did makes the likes of Hitler, Stalin or Pol Pot look like innocent children.

As stated before, it would be just to execute him via due process. You're confusing Summary Execution with Due Process.

Also, people's perceptions are different from what is Right. For example, assume a population feels a war is right, and then the reasons for engaging in the war in the first place are entirely wrong. The people's feelings about the war don't change the fact that

For example, Kirk's motivations are utilitarian/utilitarian and egoist/egoist/utilitarian and deontological.

Which are philosophical dispositions which are not demonstrated on screen. A Deontologist does not derive pleasure from killing someone, for instance. It may be Utilitarian to some extent, but the inherent problem with Utilitarianism is that it's so iffy and wishy washy. It's entirely possible he made the /wrong/ Utilitarian choice in that situation.

Perhaps he did't want to revenge Vulcan when he ordered the Narada destroyed, or he gave the order excluding his desire for revenge as a factor in his decision-making process.

That's possible, but you have to go outside of what is portrayed on the screen. The strongest interpretation of Kirk's pleasure at ordering the destruction of the Narada is in that he was after Revenge.

In any case, I feel Kirk and Spock are justified in wanting revenge against Nero. I also think that, if the desire for revenge motivated them in any way, their actions are still moral, as long as utilitarian considerations are also included in their decisions.
6 BILLION people dead - you know, if you would start counting now and never stop, you would reach 6 billion in 190 YEARS. What if each one of these numbers was a person with dreams, hopes and dislikes - with a life? So much death is inimaginable.
It may not be deontologic, but Nero deserved his fate.


And when you expressly desire revenge like that, you are reduced to being no better than Nero. Revenge is never justified, in my opinion. As stated before, in both cases; "Agent A sees Bad Event B set against them, and they want to get even with Agent C". They're both the same.
 
Doesn't follow. Surely being a Deontologist doesn't commit you to emotional satisfaction from those principles. Assuming that there is a sound deontological reason for killing Nero, you can kill him for that reason, while nevertheless enjoying the action because he's someone you really, really want to kill, even if really wanting to kill him isn't a sound reason for doing the killing. My take was that this is where Spock is coming from.

Kirk has never struck me as any kind of Deontologist, mind -- and that's either version.



There's a difference between being satisfied that you made a proper moral choice, and then doing it because you wanted to kill the person. If you delight in the death of another person, it's rather obvious. However, one of the criticisms of Kantian Deontology actually is in that it doesn't allow for too much moral integration. That is, personal inclination and duty coinciding. However, the problem is that personal inclination makes it harder to determine what's actually going on. I do believe that personal inclination and duty can coincide, with some considerations.

In this situation though, we need evidence that Kirk really was being Deontological, but the obvious delight he had in killing Nero spoils this. The problem here is that a Deontologist should not want to kill someone. The goal they should have is to preserve life, and the proper moral inclination here isn't "I want to kill this man", but "I want to preserve life". This leads to an entirely different emotional expression.
 
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