No longer deep space, renaming DS9

[Prax]

Did the Federation council assume that, though? I don't think we know. The admiral certainly didn't.

And the Sona leader was manipulating the admiral, and pretending to speak the Federation's language. He kept up this pretense until things began to not go his way.

 

[DonIago]

Nobody assumed the Baku were primitive, at least not by the time of the events of the film. Dougherty flat-out stated that the Baku weren't native to the planet which was why the PD didn't apply.

Though once it became clear that the Son'a and Baku were related, the PD did (or should have) once again apply, from a different angle.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

Was there any indication that anyone in the Federation knew the Baku weren't as primitive as they seemed? Assumed Prime Directive issues would preclude any asking of the Baku about their opinions on the matter.

Assumed prime directive issues would also preclude them from any interference at all, including secretly kidnapping and relocating the population.

But as Don says, there were no assumed PD issues. The PD was explicitly not applied (even though it should've been).

 

[Farscape One]

I got to say, this TNG movie gets a LOT of mileage in a DS9 thread...

 

[Discofan]

I still don't see how a small group occupying a minuscule part of a planet (planets are huge!!!) could claim ownership of the entire planet nor why any kind of fair rule would allow them to make that claim. It's absurd on its face. I know there are some ridiculous things in ST but this really takes the cake.

 

[Prax]

Would it help if we spoke of just their little plot of land? The result is the same: abduction while sleeping, ejecting them from the land, making their land uninhabitable, etc

 

[DonIago]

I might toss in non-indigenous there.

But I'd love to know who sets the rules for when people can claim ownership of colonized planets. How do you set thresholds for number of people and amount of time they've lived there, anyway?

 

[UssGlenn]

Indeed, for a real world example, how long after the first humans crossed the Alaskan land bridge do we consider them native to the Americas? I'm not sure that question actually has a scientific answer.

 

[Discofan]

Indeed, for a real world example, how long after the first humans crossed the Alaskan land bridge do we consider them native to the Americas? I'm not sure that question actually has a scientific answer.

It's not a scientific question, to begin with.

One thing is for sure: Had we found a tribe of 600 people localized in a very small part of America (and no one nowhere else) we would definitely NOT have considered them to be the owners of the ENTIRE CONTINENT, no matter for how long they had been there.

 

[DonIago]

I don't think 600 people would even fly for a single US state...

 

[Prax]

It's not a scientific question, to begin with.

One thing is for sure: Had we found a tribe of 600 people localized in a very small part of America (and no one nowhere else) we would definitely NOT have considered them to be the owners of the ENTIRE CONTINENT, no matter for how long they had been there.

Would it then be okay to scoop them up in their sleep, put them in an unknown place, and make the continent the dwelt on uninhabitable?

The ethics have nothing to do with the numbers, a point which Picard specifically makes in the film.

 

[Discofan]

Would it then be okay to scoop them up in their sleep, put them in an unknown place, and make the continent the dwelt on uninhabitable?
....

If we needed to make that continent uninhabitable (which is hard to imagine but it's a hypothetical. Hypotheticals are often absurd) in order to save the lives of millions. We would have, without hesitation and we would consider the inconvenience of relocating these guys a very small price to pay to save millions of people!!!!

 

[Prax]

If we needed to make that continent uninhabitable (which is hard to imagine but it's a hypothetical. Hypotheticals are often absurd) in order to save the lives of millions. We would have, without hesitation and we would consider the inconvenience of relocating these guys a very small price to pay to save millions of people!!!!

The circumstances in the movie don't involve saving millions of people, but extending the lifespan of a few. Perhaps a better analogy would be bulldozing someone's neighborhood with no notice to build a freeway.

Edit:

 

[Discofan]

The circumstances in the movie don't involve saving millions of people, but extending the lifespan of a few. Perhaps a better analogy would be bulldozing someone's neighborhood with no notice to build a freeway.

If you make someone's life longer then you save them since you allow them to be alive at a time when they would be dead. The radiation whatever was supposed to make people's lives longer. That refutes your analogy.

 

[Prax]

If you make someone's life longer then you save them since you allow them to be alive at a time when they would be dead.

sorry

 

[Discofan]

sorry

Yeah, strong refutal there...

 

[Prax]

Extending some people's natural lifespan isn't the same as "saving lives" That's ridonkulous. Are you not also arguing that the Baku don't deserve the right to have their own live's extended by their planet's environment? I can't take it seriously if you don't take your own argument seriously.

 

[DonIago]

I find these arguments troublesome since in the end we have no idea of what the rings were (or were not) capable of. We know they at least temporarily restored Geordi's sight, which is definitely outside the realm of "life prolongation".

 

[Tiberous Q Data]

Would it then be okay to scoop them up in their sleep, put them in an unknown place, and make the continent the dwelt on uninhabitable?

The ethics have nothing to do with the numbers, a point which Picard specifically makes in the film.

Not at all.

Yet likely better (even if only slightly) than what would really happen based on currents humanity aka wipe them all out, frogmarch them to some refugee camps, and/or set them on some cosmic Trail of Tears.

 

[Discofan]

Extending some people's natural lifespan isn't the same as "saving lives" That's ridonkulous. Are you not also arguing that the Baku don't deserve the right to have their own live's extended by their planet's environment? I can't take it seriously if you don't take your own argument seriously.

The Bakus are hogging a natural fountain of youth by occupying a small portion of a planet. what right do they have to do that? That they were there first? Oh come on!!! So if I find some natural resource in my garden that nobody was searching for until then. Does that give me a right for everything that is found in the region? This just bullshit. The Baku have a squatter right, assuming such a right is recognized by the Federation, otherwise, they got zilch. That means only the part that they are actively occupying. The rest doesn't belong to them.
Btw, I find your arguments ridiculous too. As they say that's a two-way street. I am not going to take yours seriously if you don't do the same with mine.