No conflict on TNG? Ha!

[GalaxyX]

I'm a huge TNG fan, my dad is a huge TOS fan.

We've sat down for the past couple of months watching TOS from the beginning to the end, then the movies, and then TNG (We just finished watching "Sarek" yesterday).

My dad mentioned to me "I didn't realize how many arguments the TNG Crew actually had". And I thought about it and it was true, there was quite a bit of conflict in the series; things like Dr. Crusher arguing with Picard over staying on a planet to tend to wounded and risking her own life, arguing with Federation delegates about the way command is being done on the Ship, the slowly building up tension of the Federation and the Romulans, etc etc.

And what I like the best is that all the conflict is believable. There are good and valid reasons for when a crew member or member of the senior staff gets pissed at someone/something.

It seems that this subtleness has been lost on those that cry that TNG was bland because there weren't any women beating up men all over the place because they had "traumatic childhoods" (Kira Nerys anyone? Starbuck from nuBSG?) or extremely angry captains that weren't shouting their orders (Sisko anyone?)

 

[InklingStar]

It seems that this subtleness has been lost on those that cry that TNG was bland because there weren't any women beating up men all over the place because they had "traumatic childhoods" (Kira Nerys anyone? Starbuck from nuBSG?) or extremely angry captains that weren't shouting their orders (Sisko anyone?)

Don't you think you're making the same generalisations about DS9 that you are implicitly accusing others of making about TNG?

 

[DevilEyes]

I'm a huge TNG fan, my dad is a huge TOS fan.

We've sat down for the past couple of months watching TOS from the beginning to the end, then the movies, and then TNG (We just finished watching "Sarek" yesterday).

My dad mentioned to me "I didn't realize how many arguments the TNG Crew actually had". And I thought about it and it was true, there was quite a bit of conflict in the series; things like Dr. Crusher arguing with Picard over staying on a planet to tend to wounded and risking her own life, arguing with Federation delegates about the way command is being done on the Ship, the slowly building up tension of the Federation and the Romulans, etc etc.

And what I like the best is that all the conflict is believable. There are good and valid reasons for when a crew member or member of the senior staff gets pissed at someone/something.

It seems that this subtleness has been lost on those that cry that TNG was bland because there weren't any women beating up men all over the place because they had "traumatic childhoods" (Kira Nerys anyone? Starbuck from nuBSG?) or extremely angry captains that weren't shouting their orders (Sisko anyone?)

I can't remember Kira "beating men all over the place", could you please refresh my memory? I would also think that growing up without a mother in a world full of poverty, oppression and violence, and fighting and killing people since the age of 12, qualifies as genuinely traumatic, rather than "traumatic childhood" with inverted commas to show that we're being sarcastic ('cause the occupation was really a piece of cake), but you may have a different definition...

And yeah right, Sisko was always extremely angry, rather than when he actually had a reason, and he was constantly shouting his orders... whatever

Oh my, that Deep Space Nine sure sounds like a horrible place, with senior personnel mistreating and abusing and beating everyone up! Makes me wonder which show I watched for 7 seasons...

 

[GalaxyX]

I may be exaggerating a little with Kira, but other than a bunch of talking exposition, I never understood her constant anger. A character needs to have some vulnerability to be liked. She didn't have any. She was just Terminator Bajoran programmed to get in Cardassians' faces (and anyone else she deemed not worthy, which was pretty much everyone at the station)

Sisko, well, in the very first episode we're treated to good exposition of the trauma he went thru with the Borg, but that was no excuse for the extreme act of insubordination to Captain Picard (to which Picard cowers away to like a hurt puppy) and even AFTER when Sisko realizes he was in the wrong, no apology, no explanation, just a handshake, like that's supposed to put his unwarranted attitude under the Bridge. If I were Picard I would have written his ass up and put it on his record.

 

[DevilEyes]

I may be exaggerating a little with Kira, but other than a bunch of talking exposition, I never understood her constant anger. A character needs to have some vulnerability to be liked. She didn't have any.

She was just Terminator Bajoran programmed to get in Cardassians' faces (and anyone else she deemed not worthy, which was pretty much everyone at the station)

Apparently, you didn't watch the show at all.

If I were Picard I would have written his ass up and put it on his record.

Luckily, Picard had a bit more consideration and understanding for someone who lost his wife in a terrible way in the Borg attack.

 

[Anwar]

Anyways, on-topic.

YES, there was conflict on TNG. It wasn't as blatant as McCoy's racism and Spock's incredibly irritating hypocrisy but it was there.

And besides, for the most part Spock/McCoy/Kirk got along just fine. In comparing the two, there wasn't a SIGNIFICANTLY larger amount of conflict in TOS compared to TNG. And most of the time in TOS said conflict came from external situations and plot devices affecting the crew's minds and stuff.

 

[CaptainStoner]

Anyways, on-topic.

YES, there was conflict on TNG. It wasn't as blatant as McCoy's racism and Spock's incredibly irritating hypocrisy but it was there.

And besides, for the most part Spock/McCoy/Kirk got along just fine. In comparing the two, there wasn't a SIGNIFICANTLY larger amount of conflict in TOS compared to TNG. And most of the time in TOS said conflict came from external situations and plot devices affecting the crew's minds and stuff.

I've always held that also. There isn't a parallel in TNG to Spock getting under McCoy's skin, but there are plenty of times the TNG crew are at odds.
Another TNG conflict example - I think it was The Pegasus, we had Riker witholding information from Picard and pissing him off.
Another would be Riker's refusal to do the death ritual for Worf.

As for DS9 - Kira and Odo were both hard as nails, with a soft side, and both were regularly conveyed.

 

[carlmarx]

I may be exaggerating a little with Kira, but other than a bunch of talking exposition, I never understood her constant anger. A character needs to have some vulnerability to be liked. She didn't have any. She was just Terminator Bajoran programmed to get in Cardassians' faces (and anyone else she deemed not worthy, which was pretty much everyone at the station)

Uhh...you apparently didn't get past episode one then. Four episodes from season one dealt seriously with Kira coming to terms with her violent past...

"Past Prologue"- she realizes terrorism isn't the answer to Bajor's problems anymore and learns she'll have to do her best to get along with Sisko and the Fed's presence.
"Battle Lines" - featuring a scene with her crying to Kai Opaka about her guilt over her violent past and begging for forgiveness. Sounds pretty vulnerable to me.
"Progress" - same as Past Prologue essentially.
"Duet"- realizing not all Cardassians are evil, with a tragic ending that all but shouts "KIRA HAS OVERCOME HER HATRED".

I thought Kira was the most believable and progressed character in season one. I find it interesting you kinda saw her as that one-dimensional.

 

[Gagarin]

You're comparing later TNG to the generalizations about early TNG, where there were clear dictates about conflict. Conflict was introduced, but over time, and with their hands tied.

 

[Withers]

The problem with TNG is that the conflict came from beyond the bulkheads 99.9% of the time. Sure, they might kind of disagree about a course of action to resolve whatever was coming at them, but ultimately the source of conflict was something external rather than internal. While that can often be the case it can't always be the case and maintain any air of realism.

=DevilEyes]Apparently, you didn't watch the show at all.

Seconded. Kira, whether you liked her or not, was an extremely well put together character and to write her off so flippantly conveys to me one of two things; either you didn't watch the show or you had no intent of liking it from the beginning- or both.

-Withers-​

 

[Saito S]

I may be exaggerating a little with Kira, but other than a bunch of talking exposition, I never understood her constant anger. A character needs to have some vulnerability to be liked. She didn't have any. She was just Terminator Bajoran programmed to get in Cardassians' faces (and anyone else she deemed not worthy, which was pretty much everyone at the station)

I'm sorry, but you are doing a better job of mauling your own argument than anyone who disagrees with you EVER could.

The whole "no conflict on TNG! All the characters are boring and stuffy and agree all the time, blah!" is a generalization about TNG, one that I happen to think is bollocks. The notion that it IS bollocks seems to be the crux of your argument here. NOTE: just to be absolutely clear on this point, I basically agree with you. I do think TNG had a certain detached stuffiness to it, which was one of the shows admitted weaknesses, but I happen to think most people grossly over exaggerate it. There WAS conflict on TNG between the characters, just maybe not as much as some of the other shows.

All of that said, you can't expect anyone to take your assertions seriously until you stop making blatantly untrue, grossly exaggerated, sweeping generalizations about DS9 and its characters. You are doing the very thing you rail against.

Anyways, on-topic.

YES, there was conflict on TNG. It wasn't as blatant as McCoy's racism and Spock's incredibly irritating hypocrisy but it was there.

And besides, for the most part Spock/McCoy/Kirk got along just fine. In comparing the two, there wasn't a SIGNIFICANTLY larger amount of conflict in TOS compared to TNG. And most of the time in TOS said conflict came from external situations and plot devices affecting the crew's minds and stuff.

This speaks well to the point I brought up above. Was there, overall, a greater AMOUNT of conflict between the characters on TOS and DS9 than on TNG? Sure. Does that mean that TNGs cast was incredibly stuffy and proper all the time and they almost never disagreed about anything? Certainly not. As I said, I do think the show could be a bit stuffy at times, but it's a matter of degree.

And that's a good point, about the trio on TOS, one that I hadn't thought of before: sure, there was a lot of banter between them, and McCoy and Spock certainly went at it often. But how often, really, did they honestly disagree or butt heads over something as significant or impactful as Riker's actions in the Pegasus, or his refusal to help Worf committ suicide, or Crusher's refusal to leave the planet in "The High Ground?" I'd wager those kinds of disagreements didn't come up all that much more often than they did in TNG. And sniping aside, there can be no question that by the end of TOS, the trio are very close friends.

Holy shit, I just agreed wholeheartedly with Anwar. Better keep your eyes open for meteors headed for Earth tonight, folks.

 

[RyuRoots]

I may be exaggerating a little with Kira, but other than a bunch of talking exposition, I never understood her constant anger. A character needs to have some vulnerability to be liked. She didn't have any. She was just Terminator Bajoran programmed to get in Cardassians' faces (and anyone else she deemed not worthy, which was pretty much everyone at the station)

Sisko, well, in the very first episode we're treated to good exposition of the trauma he went thru with the Borg, but that was no excuse for the extreme act of insubordination to Captain Picard (to which Picard cowers away to like a hurt puppy) and even AFTER when Sisko realizes he was in the wrong, no apology, no explanation, just a handshake, like that's supposed to put his unwarranted attitude under the Bridge. If I were Picard I would have written his ass up and put it on his record.

Your comments about Kira seem to suggest you have never seen even a single episode of DS9 where she was prominent.

And being snippy is an "extreme act of insubordination" now? Good to know.

 

[M-Red]

...for the most part Spock/McCoy/Kirk got along just fine. In comparing the two, there wasn't a SIGNIFICANTLY larger amount of conflict in TOS compared to TNG. And most of the time in TOS said conflict came from external situations and plot devices affecting the crew's minds and stuff.

This. I never have imagined TOS as a show driven by internal conflict...at all. It may have a little more than TNG, but not much.


Now on DS9 of course, rivalries and blood feuds exist around every corridor. That was DS9's aim....and it almost had to be given that it was set on a station. Very different, but they did a great job with it imo.


But that just wasn't what TNG was trying to accomplish. TNG does have conflict inside the ship between characters, but most of it is episodic and not serial. And the TNG conflicts that are serial are usually about the internal conflicts within the characters themselves, rather than between them. And for the most part, those internal conflicts of the characters are handled very well on TNG -- in a believable way that spans the entire series.


And anyway, it's not like TNG tried that angle and it just didn't work out and they dropped it. Like...say, introducing a crew of renegades into their ranks and then just deciding to largely ignore that element for the rest of the show....No, TNG didn't do anything like that. It was pretty true to itself for the most part.


Like DS9 and TOS, TNG was excellent at what it wanted to do. all my .02 of course.

 

[Admiral Shran]

=DevilEyes]Apparently, you didn't watch the show at all.

Seconded. Kira, whether you liked her or not, was an extremely well put together character and to write her off so flippantly conveys to me one of two things; either you didn't watch the show or you had no intent of liking it from the beginning- or both.

I'll third that motion. If you honestly believe Kira was always the balls-to-the-wall, no vulnerability having character she was in Emissary, then you just didn't watch the show. I mean, for crying out loud, by the time What You Leave Behind rolled around she was helping to liberate her former oppressers and laughing with them outside Dominion Headquarters.

 

[GalaxyX]

I would say except for the 3-4 episodes that specifically deal with her internal conflicts, yes, she pretty much was a balls-to-the-wall, no vulnerability character.

I did watch the entire series, I admit I've only seen it once though, so I "could" have missed important information about characters. And I did notice she was accepting of many Cardassians, some who ended up betraying her again, but there was hardly any bridging between "angry angry Kira" and "tolerant Kira", at least that I noticed.

 

[DevilEyes]

I would say except for the 3-4 episodes that specifically deal with her internal conflicts, yes, she pretty much was a balls-to-the-wall, no vulnerability character. .

That's 3-4 in season 1, right? Right? Past Prologue, Battle Lines, Progress, Duet. If you mean in the entire show, then you really did not watch it.

I did watch the entire series, I admit I've only seen it once though, so I "could" have missed important information about characters.

Mhmmm...

And I did notice she was accepting of many Cardassians, some who ended up betraying her again, but there was hardly any bridging between "angry angry Kira" and "tolerant Kira", at least that I noticed.

What does that mean?

 

[GalaxyX]

DS9 to me is a case of lazy writing. Want to make stories that write themselves? Make every single character in your show a emo bitch with "traumatic issues", and then you can have all the conflict you want, because, everyone is basically in need of psychiatric help (basically nuts)

I'm glad TNG writers had their hands tied behind their backs. Forced them to concentrate on better written stuff.

 

[Ensign_Redshirt]

I can't remember Kira "beating men all over the place", could you please refresh my memory?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYMaglfnuso

But her over-the-top badassery made her kind of cool.

 

[RyuRoots]

DS9 to me is a case of lazy writing. Want to make stories that write themselves? Make every single character in your show a emo bitch with "traumatic issues", and then you can have all the conflict you want, because, everyone is basically in need of psychiatric help (basically nuts)

I'm glad TNG writers had their hands tied behind their backs. Forced them to concentrate on better written stuff.

Welp, now I'm certain. You've really never even seen a single episode of DS9.

Sisko got over his big "traumatic issues" in the fricking pilot, and Kira's whole life until DS9 S1 was lived under an oppressive occupation, so I think it's justifiable to make her frustrated with what seems to be trading one occupation for another at first.

Who else had such traumatic issues, exactly? O'Brien? He had the "O'Brien must suffer" episodes now and again, but he mostly just dealt with normal everyday problems as far as his personal life is concerned.

Bashir? The genetic engineering was a big plot point, but he didn't need any psychiatric help for it.

Joran Dax? That's a pretty unusual case, and it certainly wasn't something either Jadzia or Ezri constantly had to deal with.

Odo? Feeling torn between loyalty that you've developed and an intense desire to belong with your people does not make one an "emo bitch".

Jake? He was just a normal kid that has the same things to deal with every boy does growing up.

Worf? He has his schtick about honor and he's a very serious character, but that's not so different from TNG.

Quark? I'm curious, what's his crippling psychosis?

Or are you referring to characters having flaws, which is a hallmark of good writing and believable characters?

 

[DevilEyes]

I can't remember Kira "beating men all over the place", could you please refresh my memory?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYMaglfnuso

But her over-the-top badassery made her kind of cool.

I only see Kira beating up troublemakers or fighting during the attacks on the station such as the one in Way of the Warrior. I don't remember her "beating men all over the place" because she's just angry and has to take it out on the poor men who have been nice and done nothing wrong.