No conflict on TNG? Ha!

[Withers]

DS9 to me is a case of lazy writing.

That's... ridiculous. It makes me wonder if you have ever tried to write any form of fiction in your life or if you even have a comprehension of the notion of drama.

The layers of the characters, their interconnectedness, and the fact that it all played out over the course of long periods of time had to have been extraordinarily difficult to not only create but to maintain without leaving mass amounts of lose ends. "Lazy writing" is Star Trek Voyager, where something was brought up, only to be abandoned or completely reversed in the following episode. "Lazy writing" is a two sentence reply in a topic with unfounded opinions propped up as verifiable fact. "Lazy writing" is anything but what describes the overall vibe of Deep Space Nine and anyone who thinks otherwise has either a very skewed definition of the words 'lazy' and 'writing' or is just completely incapable of fathoming what it actually takes to write something in the first place.

I'm glad TNG writers had their hands tied behind their backs. Forced them to concentrate on better written stuff.

You know what else was set in the future and had conflict juvenile enough to fit into an episode of Sesame Street that you might enjoy as opposed to Deep Space Nine?

That may be a bit more to your...shall we say, inclinations? Though Rosie, as I recall, was a bit neurotic and Jane may have started to show signs of a shoppaholic.

-Withers-​

 

[Red Ranger]

I agree with the O.P. Yes, the conflict wasn't blatant, but it was there from time to time.

One key conflict was between Picard and Riker in The Pegasus. Picard was plently pissed about Riker's role in the incident and his refusal to speak of it, citing Admiral Pressman's orders. Picard grudgingly has to accept that and hope he can still trust Riker. Then, he basically threatens to "fire" Riker if "I find that trust has been misplaced, then I shall have to reevaluate the command structure of this ship. Dismissed!"

You can argue that was an external threat, but I feel it actually was a conflict at the basic heart of the Picard-Riker relationship: the trust between a captain and first officer.

And, there certainly was plenty of sturm und drang between Picard and Wesley in The First Duty. Again, there were external events, but at the heart of Picard's fury was his disappointment that a young cadet he had nurtured for years would participate in a cover-up that resulted in the death of another cadet.

 

[WillsBabe]

You can argue that was an external threat, but I feel it actually was a conflict at the basic heart of the Picard-Riker relationship: the trust between a captain and first officer.

I wish they'd come back to that at some point, explored what it meant for their working relationship. But the show was already in its seventh season so I suppose the writers weren't really looking to shake up the status quo too much. Could have been an interesting mini arc or something in an earlier season.

 

[Ensign_Redshirt]

I can't remember Kira "beating men all over the place", could you please refresh my memory?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYMaglfnuso

But her over-the-top badassery made her kind of cool.

I only see Kira beating up troublemakers or fighting during the attacks on the station such as the one in Way of the Warrior. I don't remember her "beating men all over the place" because she's just angry and has to take it out on the poor men who have been nice and done nothing wrong.

No disagreement from he here.

 

[GalaxyX]

But her over-the-top badassery made her kind of cool.

And therein lies the major reason I couldn't stand that show. I did see from beginning to end, and while the story itself was trying to make me care for the plight of these characters, all I could see was a bunch of over the top melodrama pigeon holed into a universe that did not allow it.

I don't disagree that Voyager had some horrible writing, and horribly wasted opportunities. But I remember I'd come home from school and right at 4pm one channel was showing Voyager, and the other was showing DS9. I picked Voyager every...single...time. DS9 grated me, Voyager was actually fun to watch.

 

[Ensign_Redshirt]

But her over-the-top badassery made her kind of cool.

And therein lies the major reason I couldn't stand that show. I did see from beginning to end, and while the story itself was trying to make me care for the plight of these characters, all I could see was a bunch of over the top melodrama pigeon holed into a universe that did not allow it.

I don't disagree that Voyager had some horrible writing, and horribly wasted opportunities. But I remember I'd come home from school and right at 4pm one channel was showing Voyager, and the other was showing DS9. I picked Voyager every...single...time. DS9 grated me, Voyager was actually fun to watch.

Well, whatever floats your boat...

 

[Withers]

I don't disagree that Voyager had some horrible writing, and horribly wasted opportunities. But I remember I'd come home from school and right at 4pm one channel was showing Voyager, and the other was showing DS9. I picked Voyager every...single...time. DS9 grated me, Voyager was actually fun to watch.

Yeah, I mean what can you say about peoples preferences? I come home, make dinner, and watch tv. Other people come home and beat their wives. Potatoes. Potatos.

-Withers-​

 

[Anwar]

Yeah, I mean what can you say about peoples preferences? I come home, make dinner, and watch tv. Other people come home and beat their wives. Potatoes. Potatos.

You know, it's talk like this that perfectly justifies the "Voyager fans are constantly under attack from the entire fandom" line of thought...

 

[TiberiusMaximus]

This is the TNG forum, so I'll avoid the temptation to launch into a tirade in defense of DS9...actually, in defense of the characters...strange that people (including myself) can get so offended when someone insults a fictional character...
On topic, there was definitely quite a bit of character-based conflict in TNG, maybe not as much in DS9 but it was definitely there. One example that springs to mind is the episode Aquiel when Riker suspects Aquiel of being the creature and warns Geordi to be careful, Geordi is offended that Riker doesn't trust Aquiel and Riker thinks Geordi is losing his head over a girl...
And there's lots of other examples.

 

[Hober Mallow]

DS9 to me is a case of lazy writing. Want to make stories that write themselves? Make every single character in your show a emo bitch with "traumatic issues", and then you can have all the conflict you want, because, everyone is basically in need of psychiatric help (basically nuts)

Characters with traumatic personal histories is lazy writing? Not quite getting your point. I guess "Schindler's List" is a case of horrible writing.

I'm glad TNG writers had their hands tied behind their backs. Forced them to concentrate on better written stuff.

No, it forced them to introduce conflict from the outside rather than generate it naturally from amongst the characters, which is why we got endlessly silly ship-in-danger episodes.

 

[Anwar]

And like I said, most of the conflict on TOS came from external situations as well, that and guest characters. In fact most of the "internal conflict" was due to their individual reactions to said external situations.

Which is good, because without those the only internal conflicts we'd see would've been nothing but McCoy's racism and Spock's hypocrisy. And if they kept focusing on those aspects, neither character would've been all that sympathetic as time went on.

 

[Admiral Shran]

^ That's why characters need to develop, i.e. change, over time and not constantly be the same thing over and over again.

 

[Anwar]

That didn't really happen until the TOS movies, which again supports the notion that TOS' conflict was not really all-that-internal. Most of it DID come from external circumstance.

 

[C_Miller]

Internal conflict doesn't always mean they're at each other throats. The newest show that I'm getting into is The X-Files. Mulder and Scully are sources of a lot of conflic becasue even though they work for the same organization, they have different beliefs on how to operate and how to live life. And because of this they have an excellent chemistry that comes off even in the very early episodes. The TNG group, at least under Roddenberry all had similar homogeneous philosophies, except for Data and Worf because they weren't humans. That doesn't really make for comepelling television. At least the writing was good.

 

[Solarbaby]

I may be exaggerating a little with Kira, but other than a bunch of talking exposition, I never understood her constant anger. A character needs to have some vulnerability to be liked. She didn't have any.

I think that because she was so upfront and confrontational it showed her vulnerability. She over compensated on her emotions by building up a defensive persona to avoid allowing anyone into her deep hurt and pain she carried from the atrocities of the occupation. Nana played this excellently and she was very well written. The only thing I dislike about her character was the way she swaggered around the station like John Wayne for the first 5 seasons. I t wasn't very feminine and you don't have to butch up to be a strong female character- look at Janeway and 7 of 9

 

[GalaxyX]

I may be exaggerating a little with Kira, but other than a bunch of talking exposition, I never understood her constant anger. A character needs to have some vulnerability to be liked. She didn't have any.

I think that because she was so upfront and confrontational it showed her vulnerability. She over compensated on her emotions by building up a defensive persona to avoid allowing anyone into her deep hurt and pain she carried from the atrocities of the occupation. Nana played this excellently and she was very well written. The only thing I dislike about her character was the way she swaggered around the station like John Wayne for the first 5 seasons. I t wasn't very feminine and you don't have to butch up to be a strong female character- look at Janeway and 7 of 9

I think you captured my main gripe with that character. Even if she did have vulnerabilities, they are not really well portrayed, because she keeps walking around the station like John Wayne (or as I said, Terminator Bajoran) to build any sort of compassion for the character. A mistake that "Starbuck" from nuBSG was making the first season (which they eventually tried to rectify with some interesting vulnerabilities, like getting beat up by a Cylon chick, or being mentally fucked with by another Cylon).

You mentioned Janeway and 7 of 9. PERFECT examples of good writing of strong female characters! Janeway was a tough Captain and had authority, yet she had a motherly warmth that made her likeable. 7 of 9 was physically strong, one of the few characters capable of beating up Tuvok, who we know has great Vulcan strength. That's pretty bad ass. Yet there's episodes that show us a vulnerable side to 7, particularly the ones that imply inside that tough exterior is a little scared girl trying to cope with the horrible things she has suffered in her life. Another great female character is Samantha Carter from Stargate. She was shown to consistently kick ass when needed, taking on several guys in a fist fight successfully, yet her personality was warm and friendly, and not bitchy (Kira) or smug and self rightteous (Jadzia Dax).

I should watch DS9 again just to compile a list of stuff that was horrible in it.

 

[Char Aznable]

I should watch DS9 again just to compile a list of stuff that was horrible in it.

List of DS9's problems:

1: Mediocre final season

2: Ferengi episodes (for the most part)

There you go. Did your work for you. No need to thank me.

 

[TiberiusMaximus]

I should watch DS9 again just to compile a list of stuff that was horrible in it.

That's the most twisted example of a fan's loyalty I've ever heard...have fun with that.

Personally, I like Kira's John Wayne-ness. And I also think she had just as many, if not more, 'vulnerable' moments than 7 of 9. (Not that I'm insulting 7, I like her too.) Kira has a right to her anger and toughness just like 7 of 9 has a right to her peculiar mixture of cold, aloof arrogance and scared, childish naivete.

 

[Withers]

Janeway and 7 of 9. PERFECT examples of good writing of strong female characters!

The difference here is an automatic versus a manual. Anybody can get in an automatic, press the pedal, and experience driving (I did it for the first time when I was 5 years old- I accidentally ran over my sister [don't worry she's okay]). Its a very low learning curve to get the hand of driving an automatic car and has mass appeal to the less... shall we say dexterously gifted. A manual, on the other hand, has a steeper learning curve and takes longer to learn.

However, once you master a manual, you'll never want to go back to driving an automatic. The added acceleration gives one a sense of exhilaration that simply cannot be matched.

Seven of Nine is an automatic. Kira is a manual.

As an aside-It comes as no galloping shock to me that there are people who prefer women to be emotionally prepubescent with the juxtaposition of being sinister and potentially deadly in all other regards.

-Withers-​

 

[GalaxyX]

Janeway and 7 of 9. PERFECT examples of good writing of strong female characters!

The difference here is an automatic versus a manual. Anybody can get in an automatic, press the pedal, and experience driving (I did it for the first time when I was 5 years old- I accidentally ran over my sister [don't worry she's okay]). Its a very low learning curve to get the hand of driving an automatic car and has mass appeal to the less... shall we say dexterously gifted. A manual, on the other hand, has a steeper learning curve and takes longer to learn.

However, once you master a manual, you'll never want to go back to driving an automatic. The added acceleration gives one a sense of exhilaration that simply cannot be matched.

Seven of Nine is an automatic. Kira is a manual.

As an aside-It comes as no galloping shock to me that there are people who prefer women to be emotionally prepubescent with the juxtaposition of being sinister and potentially deadly in all other regards.

-Withers-​

If by manual you mean an acquired taste, I can sort of understand that. I don't really consider manual that much different than auto, but then you're talking to a guy that powershifts his car at the track, dumping the clutch at 4000-6000rpm with slicks
After that, manual shifting on the street feels like auto shifting.

As for your comment about prepubescent emotions, well I think that plays into the male/female relationship. Males as a general rules need to feel like protectors, and females need to feel protected. A character like 7 of 9 may be much stronger physically than most human males, but mentally she still need to be protected. I suppose this does have an appeal to a male. I'm not sure Kira ever let her guard down and admit she needed to feel protection, even when dating Odo. I never got the feeling that being with Odo did absolutely anything for her (even while Odo creepily gave her the "Smallville staring into her eyes" contest all the time)