Niners Unite...around Babylon 5!

[PKTrekGirl]

Tom Riker said:
One question I have to ask in all this though is: Where is Kosh? I'm sure he's been absent for a reason, but I wonder what that reason is. I guess it'll be dealt with in future episodes...

Well, you have to remember, Kosh doesn't care much at this point about the War for Earth.

Without giving too much away about the relationship between the War for Earth and the Shadow War, I will say this - you have not seen the end of the Vorlons. Not by a long shot!

 

[The Habs Fan]

PKTrekGirl said:
I will say this - you have not seen the end of the Vorlons. Not by a long shot!

That's what I figured. I'm looking forward to it.

 

[MyCylon]

PKTrekGirl said:

Justtoyourleft said:
Actually, I'm especially curious about "Sleeping in Light" as I remember not liking it very much first time around. However, I'm really looking forward to it and hope to enjoy it more this time.

I love Sleeping in the Light. I wonder why you hated it so much the first time? I think it's wonderful! I cry every time I watch it, in fact.

Of course, I cry during the montage at the end of WYLB too...so I'm a big baby anyway. But still....Sleeping in the Light, I think, is very moving.

I'll be interested to read your reaction this time 'round.

Well, I just finished B5, just saw Sleeping in Light. My reaction? I love it. It's really, really beautiful and touching. Like WYLB, it also has scenes that did make me cry.
I think the huge difference between back then and now is that I've come to care for the characters. I never liked Sheridan or Delenn back then (which, obviously, is a MAJOR problem when watching the episode) but this time I've really come to like them and feel for them as characters. I still don't like Furlan's acting but I like the character in spite of it.

I have a few notes and some questions I'd like to post. I'll put some of it in spoiler code since I don't want to...well...spoil it for others. So, here goes:

- Most of S5 with Byron in it almost feels like it doesn't actually belong to the final episodes or the rest of B5 for that matter. It's just hugely lacklustre in comparison IMHO. It was great to see the season pick up in such a major way.
- It's nice that we basically get two finales. I suppose you know what I mean if you've seen it so I won't go into detail.

Spoiler: Scene near the end of Objects at Rest

I remember REALLY disliking the scene near the end when Sheridan and Delenn are leaving and there's this salute across space between Sheridan and Lockley. Everyone looks incredibly moved, the music plays up beyond all reason...ok, you've guessed it - I still don't like it. I think it goes over the top to the point where it's not much fun to watch. I far prefer Sleeing in Light in this regard. It never crosses that threshold.

- I really liked the fact that they actually made special credits at the end for this one. That's something I always hoped DS9 would do as well but sadly didn't.
- I really like where everyone ends up though I'm left with some questions (no coincidence, I assume).

Spoiler: Sleeping in Light, character question no. 1

Londo's obviously dead in Sleeping in Light. Are we to assume that he was in fact killed by G'Kar the way we saw it foreshadowed througout the show?

Spoiler: Sleeping in Light, character question no. 2

Is Vir also controlled by the alien race whose name escapes me right now? I'm assuming it wasn't by chance that he's become a bit of a drinker.

Spoiler: Sleeping in Light, character question no. 3

What on earth is Zak doing with Vir on Centauri Prime? I'm at a total loss as far as this one is concerned. Is he a Ranger? If so, what's he scribbling and demanding Vir pay attention to? I'm still really confused by that scene.

Spoiler: Sleeping in Light, character question no. 4

What happened to Leeta's deal with Garibaldi? Did he honour his part of the deal? Did Leeta ever come back?

Spoiler: Sleeping in Light, character question no. 5

Related to some of the other questions: I wonder what happened to G'Kar. Did he come back to help Molari as was foreshadowed? Where did he spend his time? What became of him?

So there. I think that'll do for now. Let me just say I really enjoyed watching the show. It's easily one of the best SciFi shows out there IMHO. For me, the three best ones out there are probably DS9, B5 and nuBSG. I think they've all massively contributed to the science fiction landscape on tv, and I find them to be as inspirational as any tv show can ever hope to be.
Oh, and isn't it interesting how from something bad very often something good will come? I never got into and enjoyed B5 back in the day, forgot about it pretty much until one day I decided I'd give it another try. And there it was - for me to enjoy almost as though I'd never seen it before. Sleeping in Light certainly felt that way.

 

[FoxyTallChick]

With numerous people mentioning that they've cried at the end of one or both of the shows - here's a poll:

 

[FoxyTallChick]

Just for the record - I sobbed my eyes out at both!

 

[Lindley]

Spoiler: Sleeping in Light, character question no. 1

Londo's obviously dead in Sleeping in Light. Are we to assume that he was in fact killed by G'Kar the way we saw it foreshadowed througout the show?

Spoiler: Answer

Yes; in fact, you saw it in "War Without End", remember?

Spoiler: Sleeping in Light, character question no. 2

Is Vir also controlled by the alien race whose name escapes me right now? I'm assuming it wasn't by chance that he's become a bit of a drinker.

No. See the Legions of Fire trilogy by Peter David for details.

Spoiler: Sleeping in Light, character question no. 3

What on earth is Zak doing with Vir on Centauri Prime? I'm at a total loss as far as this one is concerned. Is he a Ranger? If so, what's he scribbling and demanding Vir pay attention to? I'm still really confused by that scene.

Unclear, and to my mind, unimportant.

Spoiler: Vir

It shows that Vir's tenure as Emperor is not as isolationist as Londo's was, and that's the key thing.

Spoiler: Sleeping in Light, character question no. 4

What happened to Leeta's deal with Garibaldi? Did he honour his part of the deal? Did Leeta ever come back?

Spoiler: Lyta

Yes; although it's never been stated explicitly, it's generally understood that she died during the Telepath War. There's an episode of Crusade that was going to show this, but they ended up using some random Teep instead. There's a bit more on Garibaldi's side of that in the Psi Corps trilogy.

Spoiler: Sleeping in Light, character question no. 5

Related to some of the other questions: I wonder what happened to G'Kar. Did he come back to help Molari as was foreshadowed? Where did he spend his time? What became of him?

Everything you saw in "War Without End" really happened. That wasn't just a possible future.

 

[BigFoot]

FoxyTallChick said:
With numerous people mentioning that they've cried at the end of one or both of the shows - here's a poll:

Both.

 

[Orac Zen]

Just "Sleeping in Light." Gets me every single time I watch it.

 

[DanCPA]

To answer the poll... Both

 

[PKTrekGirl]

Regarding the poll - I cry in both.

 

[PKTrekGirl]

Justtoyourleft said:

Well, I just finished B5, just saw Sleeping in Light. My reaction? I love it. It's really, really beautiful and touching. Like WYLB, it also has scenes that did make me cry.
I think the huge difference between back then and now is that I've come to care for the characters. I never liked Sheridan or Delenn back then (which, obviously, is a MAJOR problem when watching the episode) but this time I've really come to like them and feel for them as characters. I still don't like Furlan's acting but I like the character in spite of it.

Well, first, I'm really pleased that you liked it so much more this time around. I suspected you might. And yeah...loving the characters has everything to do with it. If you don't like Sheridan to begin with...well, your reaction might be more one of 'good riddance' than anything else!

It's funny, because I guess for people who were originally Trek fans, I think sometimes their first reactions to B5 are not where they end up.

When B5 first came on, I watched the first handful of episodes and hated it. I hated Centauri hair (I thought it looked ridiculouos), I hated Claudia Christian's acting, I hated Michael O'Hare's acting, and I thought the special effects/graphics were cheesy.

It was only years later that, upon getting some encouragement in the SFF forum that I went back and tried again. I was told to give it to the end of season 2, and if I still hated it, to give it up.

Well, needless to say, the second time was the charm and I've loved this show ever since. And Londo - cheesy hair and all, is my favorite character - not only in B5, but in all of scifi.

So I guess first impressions are not always lasting impressions!

As for the rest of your post, I'll respond to it later (hopefully today). I'm at work and have to go to a meeting now.

 

[vermillion]

I never cry because of movies/TV shows but those two episodes are very sad and touching. The thing that gets to me the most is when Vir starts talking about Londo and then they toast to the people who are not present .

 

[The Habs Fan]

Ceremonies Of Light And Dark
I see this episode as the epilogue of the three episodes before it. The Nightwatch are a bunch of psychos now . Have we seen the guy with the scar (Boggs) before? He looks fmailiar. I liked all the revelations in this episode: Lennier tells Marcus that he loves Delenn, Sheridan tells Delenn that he "cares" for her (Sheridan loves her, it's obvious), Garibaldi tells Delenn that he's afraid of what will happen if he ever lets go (I'm guessing this refers to his drinking problem), Ivanova tells Delenn that she "loved" Talia (this gives Divided Loyalties a whole new spin), Franklin tells Delenn, "I think I have a problem". The Franklin secret is the most poignant and ominous lines in Babylon 5. I don't kow if it was how it was delivered, or directed, or written, but it gave me the chills. The new uniforms are nice and dark, perfect colours for The Army of Light.

A Late Delivery From Avalon
I'm surprised by how much I liked this episode. King Arthur arriving on the station sounded to me like a bad TOS episode. Surprisingly, it turned out very well. Even the ending served to twist things up a bit. (Marcus and Franklin's conversation). I also got a glimpse of Kosh! So he is still on the station after all.

In case you're wondering why I haven't watched Sic Transit Vir yet, it's because I'm not watching the episodes in airdate order. I'm watching them in chronological order. Sic Transit Vir is next, followed by Ship Of Tears.

 

[Can]

Yes , Nightwatch is playing real nasty after independence. The confessions were pretty illuminating towards characters and their relationships. Great reviews , waiting next one

 

[Neroon]

Justtoyourleft said:
- Most of S5 with Byron in it almost feels like it doesn't actually belong to the final episodes or the rest of B5 for that matter. It's just hugely lacklustre in comparison IMHO. It was great to see the season pick up in such a major way.

I am not certain how much of the show's overall development has been discussed. However, JMS - the series creator - wrote virtually all of seasons 3 and 4. To place an added burden upon that, when they were filming "Sleeping In Light" there was no season 5 on the horizon. Nada. Consequently, he had to compress the stories and in many case it probably felt rushed. Now... where that affects S5.... I personally feel that he was burned out by that point. That led to the substandard story of the telepaths. Moreover, you had Claudia's departure and the necessity of trying to development a totally new character at the last minute.

- It's nice that we basically get two finales. I suppose you know what I mean if you've seen it so I won't go into detail.

From a certain perspective, we really have a 3 part finale with "Objects In Motion", "Objects At Rest" and then "Sleeping In Light".

Spoiler: Scene near the end of Objects at Rest

I remember REALLY disliking the scene near the end when Sheridan and Delenn are leaving and there's this salute across space between Sheridan and Lockley. Everyone looks incredibly moved, the music plays up beyond all reason...ok, you've guessed it - I still don't like it. I think it goes over the top to the point where it's not much fun to watch. I far prefer Sleeing in Light in this regard. It never crosses that threshold.

Spoiler: answer to above

Understandable, but then think of it this way. The station is at the center of the story. Leaving it for good... could be moving for the personnel involved. They have to hand it over to the next generation, their home, their last best chance for victory, and so on.

- I really liked the fact that they actually made special credits at the end for this one. That's something I always hoped DS9 would do as well but sadly didn't.

Have you paused and gone frame by frame through it?

Spoiler: Sleeping in Light, character question no. 1

Londo's obviously dead in Sleeping in Light. Are we to assume that he was in fact killed by G'Kar the way we saw it foreshadowed througout the show?

Spoiler: answer to above

To find out the answers in more detail you need to read. There is a Centauri trilogy of books, as well as a short story that JMS wrote for the now defunct Amazing Stories magazine.

Spoiler: Sleeping in Light, character question no. 2

Is Vir also controlled by the alien race whose name escapes me right now? I'm assuming it wasn't by chance that he's become a bit of a drinker.

Spoiler: answer to above

Those creatures are called "keepers" and no, Vir is not controlled by one. Again, the Centauri trilogy books go into more detail.

Spoiler: Sleeping in Light, character question no. 3

What on earth is Zak doing with Vir on Centauri Prime? I'm at a total loss as far as this one is concerned. Is he a Ranger? If so, what's he scribbling and demanding Vir pay attention to? I'm still really confused by that scene.

Spoiler: answer to above

It's simply that Zack has become a sort of attaché to Vir, someone that Vir knows he can trust. That's all.

Spoiler: Sleeping in Light, character question no. 4

What happened to Leeta's deal with Garibaldi? Did he honour his part of the deal? Did Leeta ever come back?

Spoiler: answer to above

First... it is spelled "Lyta", not like the dabo girl from DS9. At the risk of sounding repetitive, there is another short story, this one by J. Gregory Keyes, which appeared in the Official Babylon 5 Magazine. It highlights an adventure that the two have, and in the course of that you get your answer.

Spoiler: Sleeping in Light, character question no. 5

Related to some of the other questions: I wonder what happened to G'Kar. Did he come back to help Molari as was foreshadowed? Where did he spend his time? What became of him?

Spoiler: answer to above

You are going to hate me for this.... but again, yet another short story, also by JMS, from Amazing Stories.

Anymore questions? Just ask The Great Machine here.

 

[Neroon]

BTW.... I only cried at "Sleeping in Light", though I can see why folks would do so for "What You Leave Behind".

 

[The Habs Fan]

Sic Transit Vir
This was a nice change of pace from the seriousness of the last number of episodes. Poor Vir. She was such a goog looking and nice girl. It's too bad she feels that way about the Narns. This episode really illustrates the big differences between Vir and Londo. Vir cares about the Narn and does everything he can do to help them. Londo, despite recognizing the growing darkness within himself, doesn't care about the Narns at all. Regarding the B-plot, Sheridan and Delenn are getting closer to each other. I like the chemistry between them and hope this relationship continues.

 

[Can]

And Vir was just unfortunate. That girl was disturbing really no matter how pretty she is. At the other hand Vir is an example of how a real Centauri should act...
Sheridan / Delenn is very good developed pairing , I agree

waiting your next reviews.

 

[MyCylon]

Thanks Lindley and Neroon! That pretty much clears things up for me.
Oh, and sorry about 'Leeta' - I'd registered sometime ago that it's 'Lyta' but when writing it my DS9 side must have taken over

Btw. I just saw Thirdspace (since I'm through with the show) and I've got to say: Meh. Didn't like it. Somehow, it didn't even feel like B5 in many places. There just seemed to be bits and pieces from all sorts of sources with B5 sprinkled in here and there. Still, I'm curious to see the other films.

Neroon said:

Justtoyourleft said:
- Most of S5 with Byron in it almost feels like it doesn't actually belong to the final episodes or the rest of B5 for that matter. It's just hugely lacklustre in comparison IMHO. It was great to see the season pick up in such a major way.

I am not certain how much of the show's overall development has been discussed. However, JMS - the series creator - wrote virtually all of seasons 3 and 4. To place an added burden upon that, when they were filming "Sleeping In Light" there was no season 5 on the horizon. Nada. Consequently, he had to compress the stories and in many case it probably felt rushed. Now... where that affects S5.... I personally feel that he was burned out by that point. That led to the substandard story of the telepaths. Moreover, you had Claudia's departure and the necessity of trying to development a totally new character at the last minute.

I'm aware of and appreciate the problems JMS had. Still, I think as a viewer, there's nothing to do but judge the season on what's there. And on that basis, I think, a large part of the season doesn't hold up very well. I don't think it diminishes the overall achievement of the show. I just think it falls somewhat short.

PKTrekGirl said:
It's funny, because I guess for people who were originally Trek fans, I think sometimes their first reactions to B5 are not where they end up.

When B5 first came on, I watched the first handful of episodes and hated it. I hated Centauri hair (I thought it looked ridiculouos), I hated Claudia Christian's acting, I hated Michael O'Hare's acting, and I thought the special effects/graphics were cheesy.

It was only years later that, upon getting some encouragement in the SFF forum that I went back and tried again. I was told to give it to the end of season 2, and if I still hated it, to give it up.

Well, needless to say, the second time was the charm and I've loved this show ever since. And Londo - cheesy hair and all, is my favorite character - not only in B5, but in all of scifi.

So I guess first impressions are not always lasting impressions!

No, they're certainly not. I started off in a similar way. Interestingly, I remember that I first caught B5 in Ireland, visiting my family over there. It was some first season episode and I remember thinking what a cheap copy of Star Trek it seemed to be and assuming it wouldn't last for very long. I also remember not liking the Centauri hairdo or their clothing, for that matter. There were a number of such things that just put me off.
I didn't give too much thought to it after that, catching maybe an episode or two until people started going crazy about the show. It was being heralded as a masterpiece, and people were actively trashing Trek - including DS9 - in comparison.
I suppose that's the point where I got into the DS9 vs. B5 thing. DS9 really became THE show I was watching at the time, and people seemed to be kicking it for now reason - and elevating B5 at the same time.
I DID watch the whole of B5 because I wanted to see what all the fuss was about. Alas, I didn't see it. Or, at least, I only saw part of it. I mean, it was clearly superior to shows such as VOY - even a Trekkie couldn't deny that (well, most of them, anyway ). But in my view, it never came close to DS9.
I will say this: I do still prefer DS9. Irrespective of any form of analysis or comparisons between DS9 and B5, DS9 will probably always be 'my' show, if you know what I mean.

However, B5's come very close this time around. There are undoubtedly areas where it even did a noticeably better job. If you combined the best of both shows, hell, you'd have a show that'd be almost unbearable to watch, that's how good it would be

 

[Neroon]

Justtoyourleft said:
Oh, and sorry about 'Leeta' - I'd registered sometime ago that it's 'Lyta' but when writing it my DS9 side must have taken over

No worries. The spelling will helps others in this thread keep straight just which it is you're talking about. Of course, both actresses are shall we say... sufficiently memorable in appearance as to never be far from your mind.

And yeah... I've met each of them. My heart eventually recovered.

Btw. I just saw Thirdspace (since I'm through with the show) and I've got to say: Meh. Didn't like it. Somehow, it didn't even feel like B5 in many places. There just seemed to be bits and pieces from all sorts of sources with B5 sprinkled in here and there. Still, I'm curious to see the other films.

Interesting that you should say that it "didn't even feel like B5", because it was an attempt at a sort of HP Lovecraft type of store.

Justtoyourleft said:
I'm aware of and appreciate the problems JMS had. Still, I think as a viewer, there's nothing to do but judge the season on what's there. And on that basis, I think, a large part of the season doesn't hold up very well. I don't think it diminishes the overall achievement of the show. I just think it falls somewhat short.

Trust me. You're in good company in feeling that way, because many if not MOST B5 fans feel that part falls way short. We even had a panel at a local convention some years ago debating the merits/demerits of S5.

However, B5's come very close this time around. There are undoubtedly areas where it even did a noticeably better job. If you combined the best of both shows, hell, you'd have a show that'd be almost unbearable to watch, that's how good it would be

Alas if B5 could only have had access to DS9's production budget.....