Niners Unite...around Babylon 5!
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Believers
This episode is...interesting, and speaking as a religious person it makes me very uncomfortable. Extremism in anything repels me, and religious extremism is no exception. We're presented with, essentially, an alien race which holds to the concept that certain religious beliefs outweigh the welfare of a child or other loved one. The episode does a reasonable job of making it clear the parents are acting out of love and in keeping with what they believe, but my unease with what they believe makes this difficult to watch.
It was interesting to see the parents "shopping around" for help from the main players among the alien races, and the way each reacts to their request is instructive. G'Kar's reaction is no surprise at this stage of things, but I can't say I cared for it. Mollari cops out and reduces it to money. Approaching Kosh? Fascinating.
Delenn's reasoning makes sense, at least compared to the others.
Franklin's tendency to arrogance and to imposing his views on others regardless is very evident in this episode. Initially he tries to respect their beliefs, but soon enough he takes the moral high ground and ignores anyone who disagrees. He goes ahead and does it anyway – and what strikes me as offensive about that is that he's arrogant enough to override the child's concerns. I for one don't expect a doctor to be a god - what monumental arrogance on his part.
The Ivanova subplot's kinda tacked on and dull, but you've gotta love her attitude. Not much to say about that, really.
The latest Koshism actually made more sense than almost anything he ever said
This has rather more depth than I would have supposed (I've never been much of a fan of David Gerrold), but my unease with the subject matter does somewhat colour my opinion of the episode. Although considering I'm so ambivalent about it I see I managed to rave on about it quite a bit.
(Incidentally, Gerrold was assigned the episode by JMS because he had recently adopted a child of much the same age as the kid in the story. JMS felt it would add something to his approach to the episode.)
This episode is...interesting, and speaking as a religious person it makes me very uncomfortable. Extremism in anything repels me, and religious extremism is no exception. We're presented with, essentially, an alien race which holds to the concept that certain religious beliefs outweigh the welfare of a child or other loved one. The episode does a reasonable job of making it clear the parents are acting out of love and in keeping with what they believe, but my unease with what they believe makes this difficult to watch.
It was interesting to see the parents "shopping around" for help from the main players among the alien races, and the way each reacts to their request is instructive. G'Kar's reaction is no surprise at this stage of things, but I can't say I cared for it. Mollari cops out and reduces it to money. Approaching Kosh? Fascinating.
Delenn's reasoning makes sense, at least compared to the others.Franklin's tendency to arrogance and to imposing his views on others regardless is very evident in this episode. Initially he tries to respect their beliefs, but soon enough he takes the moral high ground and ignores anyone who disagrees. He goes ahead and does it anyway – and what strikes me as offensive about that is that he's arrogant enough to override the child's concerns. I for one don't expect a doctor to be a god - what monumental arrogance on his part.
The Ivanova subplot's kinda tacked on and dull, but you've gotta love her attitude.
Not much to say about that, really. The latest Koshism actually made more sense than almost anything he ever said
This has rather more depth than I would have supposed (I've never been much of a fan of David Gerrold), but my unease with the subject matter does somewhat colour my opinion of the episode. Although considering I'm so ambivalent about it I see I managed to rave on about it quite a bit.
(Incidentally, Gerrold was assigned the episode by JMS because he had recently adopted a child of much the same age as the kid in the story. JMS felt it would add something to his approach to the episode.)
Ditto. I watched it last night and found it too heavy-handed in its morality. Interesting that the previous episode was also a morality play--one that worked for me, but this one just fell flat. Not only were the parents annoying, but Dr. Franklin really got on my nerves as well. The only slightly redeaming parts were the Franklin/Sinclair conversations, but even those bordered on preachy. Only "Infection" is ranked lower than "Believers" so far for me.
I have yet to post on And the Sky, Full of Stars and Deathwalker, but I wrote down the following after having seen the third episode of this week (thankfully it is unconnected to the previous two, so reviewing it out of order is OK).
Believers
I liked this episode and thought it achieved what it set out to do. (Maybe I'm being too positive in my praise of all these early season episodes, but I have no later reference point and in any case am genuinely really enjoying them!)
Sympathise with the doctor as well as the parents: he makes the point that he took a practically-religious oath to preserve life, and moreover that this oath is a professional one, too: a vital part of his job. They are both beliefs and we can no more dismiss Franklin’s, than he can dismiss theirs. I don’t need to go into my own personal beliefs here: parents killing their own child is a horrific thing to me. Interesting that it references something out of Christianity (Abraham / Isaac).
Sinclair was as usual, good: and the point was relevant to a larger understanding of B5, that it cannot be compromised as a neutral area. There was one thing I didn’t like – his disbelieving “Is that what you believe?” re Franklin’s suggested atheism. It went against Sinclair’s presentation of atheism as a form of belief, in Parliament of Dreams. The ambassadors all say the same thing, really (except Kosh!): they cannot get involved for no gain. In Delenn's case, she sees no moral reason to intervene. G'Kar and Londo see no material gain, though one is blunt and the other more wheedling about this.
Like others, I found the parents infuriating – the kind of fundamentalism that covers all the particulars as well core beliefs irks me incredibly. But in a way, they were presented as SO rigid and unsympathetic in order to make it extra difficult for us to sympathise with them, to see their side as we are forced to do. As for Franklin – I also think that whether he annoys or inspires in this episode (matter of opinion: I think he does both, and grows over the course of the episode too) … he is also meant to be controversial. Biggs does a very good job of making you see what the Doctor is feeling, and by correlation what the parents felt. In the scene where he barges in on the ritual death, and exclaims “you did it”, you realise that his heartfelt (and to us, understandable) shock is exactly what they went through upon discovery of the operation.
It was a thought-provoking episode, even if the topic is nothing new. After watching this, by coincidence it happened that I ended up talking to someone about female circumcision in African cultures, and suddenly realised the connection. I don’t think anything can justify mutilation of that sort – so how can this episode provoke sympathy for the parents prepared to kill their child? Is it because female circumcision is still a HUMAN matter? Because it’s an active mutilation, not the passivity of the parents’ initial stance? I still haven’t quite figured out what I think, and maybe that’s a strength of this episode. After all, not even Sinclair is sure by the end: he just makes the decision that’s right for the station, not necessarily right in itself.
Well, will be back! Am thoroughly and utterly hooked by now!
Believers
I liked this episode and thought it achieved what it set out to do. (Maybe I'm being too positive in my praise of all these early season episodes, but I have no later reference point and in any case am genuinely really enjoying them!)
Sympathise with the doctor as well as the parents: he makes the point that he took a practically-religious oath to preserve life, and moreover that this oath is a professional one, too: a vital part of his job. They are both beliefs and we can no more dismiss Franklin’s, than he can dismiss theirs. I don’t need to go into my own personal beliefs here: parents killing their own child is a horrific thing to me. Interesting that it references something out of Christianity (Abraham / Isaac).
Sinclair was as usual, good: and the point was relevant to a larger understanding of B5, that it cannot be compromised as a neutral area. There was one thing I didn’t like – his disbelieving “Is that what you believe?” re Franklin’s suggested atheism. It went against Sinclair’s presentation of atheism as a form of belief, in Parliament of Dreams. The ambassadors all say the same thing, really (except Kosh!): they cannot get involved for no gain. In Delenn's case, she sees no moral reason to intervene. G'Kar and Londo see no material gain, though one is blunt and the other more wheedling about this.
Like others, I found the parents infuriating – the kind of fundamentalism that covers all the particulars as well core beliefs irks me incredibly. But in a way, they were presented as SO rigid and unsympathetic in order to make it extra difficult for us to sympathise with them, to see their side as we are forced to do. As for Franklin – I also think that whether he annoys or inspires in this episode (matter of opinion: I think he does both, and grows over the course of the episode too) … he is also meant to be controversial. Biggs does a very good job of making you see what the Doctor is feeling, and by correlation what the parents felt. In the scene where he barges in on the ritual death, and exclaims “you did it”, you realise that his heartfelt (and to us, understandable) shock is exactly what they went through upon discovery of the operation.
It was a thought-provoking episode, even if the topic is nothing new. After watching this, by coincidence it happened that I ended up talking to someone about female circumcision in African cultures, and suddenly realised the connection. I don’t think anything can justify mutilation of that sort – so how can this episode provoke sympathy for the parents prepared to kill their child? Is it because female circumcision is still a HUMAN matter? Because it’s an active mutilation, not the passivity of the parents’ initial stance? I still haven’t quite figured out what I think, and maybe that’s a strength of this episode. After all, not even Sinclair is sure by the end: he just makes the decision that’s right for the station, not necessarily right in itself.
Well, will be back! Am thoroughly and utterly hooked by now!
Interestingly, "Believers" was among the first B5 episodes I ever saw.
Way back when at a friend's house, I saw something from early season 4, and a part of "A View from the Gallery" as well. Then, a year or so later, I read something comparing B5 to DS9, and playing up B5's willingness to trade out characters as required by the story.
So when I started college and had some free time on my hands, I noticed B5 on the Scifi Channel; coincidentally, it was "The Gathering, Part 1", but I didn't know that. Thought it was okay, but didn't watch again for a while.
The next ep I saw was "Believers". What kept me watching at the time was the fact that I didn't know Doctor Franklin was a major character; I was waiting to see if he'd be thrown off the station at the end.
Way back when at a friend's house, I saw something from early season 4, and a part of "A View from the Gallery" as well. Then, a year or so later, I read something comparing B5 to DS9, and playing up B5's willingness to trade out characters as required by the story.
So when I started college and had some free time on my hands, I noticed B5 on the Scifi Channel; coincidentally, it was "The Gathering, Part 1", but I didn't know that. Thought it was okay, but didn't watch again for a while.
The next ep I saw was "Believers". What kept me watching at the time was the fact that I didn't know Doctor Franklin was a major character; I was waiting to see if he'd be thrown off the station at the end.
Just a quick note regarding 'Believers'. Several people have expressed that they found the parents annoying and if I hadn't just watched it again myself, I might agree. I don't have much to say about the father character, his just seemed to be the typical 'stiff upper lip' sort but I really found the mother character believable. She really managed to put across that she was horrified at the idea of surgery for Shon and yet terrified at the thought of losing him.
Whether it was JMS or the casting department, there were some great performances on B5.
Jan
Whether it was JMS or the casting department, there were some great performances on B5.
Jan
^
I agree, and meant to mention in my post how good Tricia O'Neil was in this episode.
I've seen several posters on this board rubbish the acting in B5 and claim it's one of the reasons they don't like the show. I suppose like so many things it's in the eye of the beholder, but I think the acting was (on the whole) excellent, and in the case of Andreas Katsulas in particular exceptional. To each their own, I suppose.
I agree, and meant to mention in my post how good Tricia O'Neil was in this episode.
I've seen several posters on this board rubbish the acting in B5 and claim it's one of the reasons they don't like the show. I suppose like so many things it's in the eye of the beholder, but I think the acting was (on the whole) excellent, and in the case of Andreas Katsulas in particular exceptional. To each their own, I suppose.
Finally watched And the Sky Full of Stars tonight, I'm a little behind this week 
As others mentioned before, killing Sinclair if he found out makes no sense at all. Weird!
Not really on topic: Did anybody of you notice some troubles with the picture format in this episode? There are quite a few scenes where the picture suddenly gets "squished"... maybe it's just the Region-2 DVDs?
Very true! Now that I've watched it again after seeing seasons 1-4 last year, I find it somehow much more interesting
As others mentioned before, killing Sinclair if he found out makes no sense at all. Weird!
Not really on topic: Did anybody of you notice some troubles with the picture format in this episode? There are quite a few scenes where the picture suddenly gets "squished"... maybe it's just the Region-2 DVDs?
If anything, it was Minbari morals and/or ethics that led her to not intervene. She wanted to help, but the Minbari have a more private relationship with souls (as Delenn states) and because of the interference of others in that domain, they (the Minbari) do not get involved in issues such as this.
The interesting thing is that in reponse to Delenn's refusal, the parents acted just like Franklin in refusing to acknowledge an alternate moral or ethical standpoint. The mother espeically: "You're refusing because of your beliefs?" Yeah, she's refusing because of what she believes in. Just like you want to prevent Franklin from doing what he believes because of what you believe. Just a touch of hypocracy from the parents at that point.
I think that might have something to do with the fact that the episodes were originally filmed in 16:9 widescreen, but the CGI effects were done in 4:3...so combining the two, like when characters are in the launch bay area near the rendered ships and so forth, bad things happen. Someone correct if I'm wrong though.Posted by Johi36:Not really on topic: Did anybody of you notice some troubles with the picture format in this episode? There are quite a few scenes where the picture suddenly gets "squished"... maybe it's just the Region-2 DVDs?
That was a problem specific to that episode, as I recall. Incorrect cropping.
The "only 4x3 CGI available" problem is mostly not too noticible. The one time it *is* a big deal is in "And Now for a Word" in season 2. Lots of scenes with tops of heads cut off when they shouldn't be.
The "only 4x3 CGI available" problem is mostly not too noticible. The one time it *is* a big deal is in "And Now for a Word" in season 2. Lots of scenes with tops of heads cut off when they shouldn't be.
Posted by Johi36:
Not really on topic: Did anybody of you notice some troubles with the picture format in this episode? There are quite a few scenes where the picture suddenly gets "squished"... maybe it's just the Region-2 DVDs?
I had the problem too (r-2, french edition), I'm glad you mentionned it because when I watched the episode yesterday I thought that it was a technical issue and spent the whole episode trying to correct the problem, changing settings here and there.
Yeah, that's what I meant in my clumsy phrasing ... she does not see a moral gain in intervening, rather the opposite. For Delenn, her ethics keep her out: for the others, their self-interest keeps them out. But for a Minbari, doing something that is morally right IS a gain in their eyes ... it seemed to amount to the same thing, a refusal to get mixed up in something that won't end well for them or others.
I agree completely that the look of disbelief on the parents' face when they realise Delenn's BELIEFS won't let her help, is another of the great moments of this episode!
SB ... agree with you also about the level of acting and Andreas Katsulas in particular (G'Kar has instantly become my favourite character so far): yeah, there are some performances that aren't to everyone's taste, but the overall standard of acting is pretty good!
Yep! Got that too, though on another episode (may have been same disc though)! Only happened once but was worried there was something wrong with the DVD ... (Region 2 as well ...) Argh! It seems to come and go, started the episode again and it was OK ...
Okay...finally have a day to catch up here. I had one episode from last week, and this week's episodes to watch. So I'll probably be watching B5 for the rest of the day.
Which isn't a bad thing!
The War Prayer
Since this was last week's ep, I almost skipped my comments. But in the end, I really can't since it's got a fair amount of Londo in it.
I like this episode okay. The Centauri storyline sorta gives us some more background on that culture (as well as proof that Londo really does have a heart somewhere in there), and the Minbari storyline with Delenn's friend Mayan gives us a bit of background on the Minbari and their sort of 'mystical' beliefs.
But of course, the main event in this one was the Home Guard stuff, and the Ivanova/Malcolm situation. Poor Susan - she definitely should not have given him another chance. And of course, the whole Home Guard storyline is sorta leading up to <span class="spoiler"><font class="small">Spoiler:</font><hr /><span> the establishment of Nightwatch.</span><hr /></span> So it's a pretty important development.
Londo Line(s) of the Episode:
"Love? What does LOVE have to to with MARRIAGE???"
and
(to Vir, showing him his pictures) "Look! These are my three wives: Pestilence, Famine, and Death. Do you think I married them for their PERSONALITIES??? Their personalities could shatter entire PLANETS! Arranged marriages, every one! But they worked OUT! They INSPIRED me! Knowing that they are waiting at home for me keeps me HERE, 75 light-years away!"
Which isn't a bad thing!
The War Prayer
Since this was last week's ep, I almost skipped my comments. But in the end, I really can't since it's got a fair amount of Londo in it.
I like this episode okay. The Centauri storyline sorta gives us some more background on that culture (as well as proof that Londo really does have a heart somewhere in there), and the Minbari storyline with Delenn's friend Mayan gives us a bit of background on the Minbari and their sort of 'mystical' beliefs.
But of course, the main event in this one was the Home Guard stuff, and the Ivanova/Malcolm situation. Poor Susan - she definitely should not have given him another chance. And of course, the whole Home Guard storyline is sorta leading up to <span class="spoiler"><font class="small">Spoiler:</font><hr /><span> the establishment of Nightwatch.</span><hr /></span> So it's a pretty important development.
Londo Line(s) of the Episode:
"Love? What does LOVE have to to with MARRIAGE???"
and
(to Vir, showing him his pictures) "Look! These are my three wives: Pestilence, Famine, and Death. Do you think I married them for their PERSONALITIES??? Their personalities could shatter entire PLANETS! Arranged marriages, every one! But they worked OUT! They INSPIRED me! Knowing that they are waiting at home for me keeps me HERE, 75 light-years away!"
Posted by Vash:
Londo Line(s) of the Episode:
"Love? What does LOVE have to to with MARRIAGE???"
and
(to Vir, showing him his pictures) "Look! These are my three wives: Pestilence, Famine, and Death. Do you think I married them for their PERSONALITIES??? Their personalities could shatter entire PLANETS! Arranged marriages, every one! But they worked OUT! They INSPIRED me! Knowing that they are waiting at home for me keeps me HERE, 75 light-years away!"
They are wonderful quotes.
Blazing forward in my Saturday B5 marathon....
And the Sky Full of Stars:
Okay. No Londo in this one, but this is obviously a key episode. One of the most important ones in all of season one. So pay attention to this one, n00bs!
Long story short, in this one, we begin to find out about two important issues:
1. What happened to Sinclair after he blacked out at the Battle of the Line, and
2. <span class="spoiler"><font class="small">Spoiler:</font><hr /><span>Why the Minbari surrendered at the Battle of the Line</span><hr /></span>
Obviously, we don't get all the answers...but we get hints. Very important hints that will lead to great revelations later in the show.
It's very interesting that Sinclair puts together the fact that Delenn is a member of the Grey Counsel...but lies about remembering that. I guess he wants to keep that bit of info as an ace up his sleeve for the time being.
Some great development for Sinclair - especially with regard to <span class="spoiler"><font class="small">Spoiler:</font><hr /><span>his ultimate mission and important role in the series as a whole</span><hr /></span>
Obviously, I like this one. Key forshadowing is always cool to see during this season. This is definitely one of the episodes that gets WAY better once you've seen the entire series!
Okay.
Back to the TV.
And the Sky Full of Stars:
Okay. No Londo in this one, but this is obviously a key episode. One of the most important ones in all of season one. So pay attention to this one, n00bs!
Long story short, in this one, we begin to find out about two important issues:
1. What happened to Sinclair after he blacked out at the Battle of the Line, and
2. <span class="spoiler"><font class="small">Spoiler:</font><hr /><span>Why the Minbari surrendered at the Battle of the Line</span><hr /></span>
Obviously, we don't get all the answers...but we get hints. Very important hints that will lead to great revelations later in the show.
It's very interesting that Sinclair puts together the fact that Delenn is a member of the Grey Counsel...but lies about remembering that. I guess he wants to keep that bit of info as an ace up his sleeve for the time being.
Some great development for Sinclair - especially with regard to <span class="spoiler"><font class="small">Spoiler:</font><hr /><span>his ultimate mission and important role in the series as a whole</span><hr /></span>
Obviously, I like this one. Key forshadowing is always cool to see during this season. This is definitely one of the episodes that gets WAY better once you've seen the entire series!
Okay.
Back to the TV.
Posted by SB:
Geez, Vash, I'm planning to start the next three episodes today. Get on with it.
Showoff.
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