That's the mentality I've always tried to use. I've seen a lot of other people with the same mentality, too. I'm not sure why some can't seem to do so.
Nine reasons why Deep Space Nine is the best Star Trek
- Thread starter DS9forever
- Start date
That's the mentality I've always tried to use. I've seen a lot of other people with the same mentality, too. I'm not sure why some can't seem to do so.
I fail to see that. Perhaps calling Rick Berman a stupid Canadian could be construed as offensive to Rick Berman, but it's based off an old Dara O'Briain joke about how an American couple mistook him for being English so he referred to them as being Mexican. If I really hate Berman and think he's stupid, why did I criticise perceived bias against him at Memory Alpha around the same time?
You need to understand that one of the biggest insults you can make against the Irish is to refer to us as English. Don't get me wrong, we don't have a problem with English people (well, most of us don't), but we're not English and we don't want to be called English. There was a half-dozen rebellions against English rule, their cultural and religious discrimination, and their incompetence. We really don't want to be English. So to hear a song written in commemoration of those that died during one of our most famous rebellions being referred to as an English hymn... it lacks understanding and cultural sensitivity, and leads to a feeling of dismay. I don't expect you to understand.
Sorry, that was all well-written and informative, and I'm not going to take sides for obvious reasons but I enjoyed the post, but...
I love the dichotomy, I do.
Maybe people should just forget about the past and just grow up. Your ancestors are dead for a long, long, long time now, and those who did them harm are dead for a long, long, long time now, too. Nobody living right now on this world has ANYTHING to do with what happened in the past.
It's like a jewish teenager hating a German teenager for what happened 60 years ago. It's just as silly.
Feeling insulted because someone calls you English is nothing else but childish, infantile and immature. And I'm not even sorry to say that.
I think it's more like a Jewish teenager getting offended when someone says his ancestors were Nazis.
I think it's more like a Jewish teenager getting offended when someone says his ancestors were Nazis.
That's true. But it's like "Yeah, and so?" Just shrug it off, since you know better. It happened, nobody can change it.
Damn, I should proof-read more.Jeff O'Connor said:Sorry, that was all well-written and informative, and I'm not going to take sides for obvious reasons but I enjoyed the post, but...
I love the dichotomy, I do.
Did I say I hated the English? I don't believe I did. In fact, I specifically said "we [Irish] don't have a problem with English people", what we object to is being called English because we were once forced into being a part of their contemptible empire. I've been to England many times, I have happy memories of the country, I have friends there, and I used to have an English girlfriend that I loved more than anyone in the world at the time. To suggest that I, of all people, have an irrational hatred of the English people is a complete non-starter.
Thousands of people across the centuries gave up their lives so that I could be born into an independent Irish republic. They weren't all heroes, and some of them committed villainous deeds, but their ultimate goal was just and admirable. I'm no nationalist, but I'm glad to live in the country that they fought for.
I am Irish. Those that fought in the 1798 rebellion were Irish (actually, some were French). The song about them is Irish. To call it an English hymn, to suggest that it is about the English, is an affront to the very thing those men fought and died for.
Though it's not like they could care anymore. It's your choice to be upset about that, not theirs.
But that's the basic principle that for example leads to men blowing themselves up over a dispute that started over 2000 years ago. It starts with people feeling insulted by "Your mom" jokes, continues with people who feel insulted when somebody burns a friggin' flag, and ends with people who start to kill others when somebody insults their God by drawing a cartoon. I strongly object to that principle. Nobody is responsible for the doings of their ancestors, nor is there any kind commitment resulting from those doings. And for crying out loud, stop feeling insulted when you aren't even the target of the insult. Your ancestors obviously can't care anymore, and your God obviously doesn't care either, so why would you need to? People are born in a country, a skin color and a gender by chance. Patriotism, nationalism, racism, fundamentalism of all sorts, and clinging to age old conflicts that have been started by people that are already dead for a long time, that's childish behavior.
Last edited:
What if you ignore the first sentence of the quote this is in reply to?
Because I respect them, I respect their memory, and I respect the goals that they were trying to achieve. I fail to see how this is a bad thing.
No it's not. Having respect for oneself and one's kind does not lead to having contempt for others. There's nothing wrong with being proud with one's culture, what's wrong is when people view their culture as being perfect and superior to all others. I hold no such views.
Nor did I ever claim any such thing, please stop arguing against strawmen.
I'm curious, were you at any time a black slave, or were you murdered during the holocaust?
I believe in no gods.
No, they're not. What, do you think it's like some sort of lottery, that I could have been born in Mongolia and be the same person I am now? I am the product of my genetics and my personal experiences, both of which come mostly from Ireland. I could not have been born to Swedish parents because I would have been an entirely different person, genetically. My parents could have moved to Australia before I was born and my life experiences would have been mostly Australian, which would make me a different person from what I am now. Not better, not worse, but not me.
Let's cut to the chase here; many people around the world mistakenly refer to the Irish (and the Scottish and the Welsh) as English, because we were a part of the British Empire. Most Irish people do not like the British Empire; it was unjust, discriminatory, and caused atrocities against our people. We did not want to be a part of the Empire, we were forced into it through arms, and when we rose up against it (several times), we were defeated. We do not want to be associated with that Empire, we do not want to be reminded of the crimes committed against our people (and many other cultures around the world) by that Empire.
The modern-day United Kingdom bears little resemblance to the Empire of old; it is a fair, just and democratic society that is imperfect, but so is every other country. I have no serious objections about the UK or its people.
That being said, I am not English, and I object to being called English because it is a reference, intentional or not, to the legacy of an Empire that I despise.
I am Irish, I am not English, there is a difference. If you do not care to learn that difference, then do not choose to speak of it.
It becomes a bad thing if you jump people in the face about it.
No, the point is that nobody gets to choose where and how he/she is born. So judging anyone by his ancestry, gender, race, nationality or religion is a stupid thing to do.
Only if you yourself choose to consider it a reference to that legacy. You said it yourself: "intentional or not". Which implies that you don't care if it was intentional and you feel offended anyway. That's your choice only.
No there is no difference. The people living today have nothing to do with what happened back in the past. We're all humans.
Can't believe I need to tell that to anyone in this day in age. On a Star Trek message board, too!
See, that's the basic mindset a terrorist, too. "Your country bombarded my home town. Now you have to die for it." when the only persons responsible are the one who ordered the bombardment and those who executed it. Even worse when they take revenge for something that happened like, I dunno, 30 years ago and punish innocent people that have nothing to do with it.
Heck, often stupid Americans are still making lame retarded comments about what the French did in WWII directed at me like I was personally responsible for that. I'm not.
Stupid Europeans judged every American negatively just because they hate(d) George W. Bush. And now they judge them more positively because they like Barack Obama. How much dumber can it get?
Last edited:
You're defined by your current Irish surroundings and your own choices. That's not the same thing as Irish history and choices of your ancestors.
The first working steam-powered vehicle was probably designed by Ferdinand Verbiest, a Flemish member of a Jesuit mission in China around 1672. It was a 65 cm-long scale-model toy for the Chinese Emperor, that was unable to carry a driver or a passenger. It is not known if Verbiest's model was ever built.
(Since it has become apparent that you don't actually read my posts, I have decided to post a random clipping from Wikipedia to see how you'll try and distort information about steam-powers cars into claiming that I'm somehow racist against modern-day English people because I hate the now defunct British Empire.)
The basic mindset of a fundamentalist is one that is not open to new ideas, nor willing to listen to opposing points of view.
Yeah, you're right, all those months I spent in England, all I was thinking was how I should be placing bombs in their cities and killing innocent people. Because, as you're aware, I'm an idiotic fucktard.
No, it is the legacy of English imperialism. If the English hadn't invaded Ireland, taken the land and settled it, nobody would have any reason to mistake the two. We had different languages, different social structures, different sports, and (later) different religions. But because they came here and forced us to conform to their way of life, people around the world began to mistake us for them. Almost 90 years since the creation of the Irish Free State, people still mistake us for them.
We're all human, but we're not all the same. This planet has thousands of unique cultures, and that's something we should be celebrating, not lamenting.
Right back atcha!
And my current Irish surroundings were defined in large part by Irish history and the choices of my ancestors. What happened in the past has a presence in the here and now, and while we shouldn't let that constrict us, we would be foolish to ignore it.
after you gained independence at long last, ireland remained the poorest country of western europe for another three generations. the scots did well, and nobody in the empire objected to their funny skirts and bagpipes. independence has such nice connotations, like freedom and wealth for all people once the foreign oppressor is gone, but nothing of this materialized. there is not much independence in poverty.
Partly because the terms of the 1922 treaty were damaging to the Irish economy. Firstly, Northern Ireland remained a part of Britain, and since NI was the industrial heartland of the island, that made it harder for the Free State than it would have been. Secondly, the Irish government was forced to pay land annuities to repay loans for farms that should rightfully have been owned by the farmers in the first place. When de Valera came to power in the 30s, he refused to pay back the loans, so Britain retaliated by putting tariffs on Irish imports, which completely crippled the Irish economy in the middle of a global recession. By the time that Britain and Ireland came to terms and ended the trade war, WW2 was right around the corner and that damaged the economy further.
Don't get me wrong, Irish governments played their part in the problem too, de Valera in particular was a disaster when it came to the economy. He followed protectionist principles and wanted Ireland to have an agrarian-based economy, which was utterly stupid and did a lot of damage in the long run. It wasn't until Lemass came to power in the 60s that things began to turn around here.
While the Scottish Nationalist Party may put forward the flawed argument that an independent Scotland would be rich due to North Sea oil, that's not what independence is truly about. Independence isn't about making money, it's about being able to forge one's own destiny, to promote one's culture, and to be able to stand with the other nation-states of the world, shoulder to shoulder.
Ireland is up shit-creek right now, economically speaking, but I would never advocate rejoining the UK as a solution to the problem for two reasons: 1) Britain's up shit creek too and 2) I'm not British, I don't feel British, and I don't want Britain telling us what to do.
That being said, I do feel European and I welcome most attempts at further EU integration as I don't mind the EU telling us what to do. Go figure.
I don't personally, but I can understand the point.
I'm amazed that the thread has stayed open this long, given how it went back to arguing OT again... Is it over?
I can appreciate criticism for a Star Trek episode that makes an obvious faux pas (mistake), like confusing Irish and English cultures. The writers should have done their homework. They're not writing to American audiences--it's the world. Star Trek is watched the world over. And yes, people get insulted when such blatant treatments are presented. Disrespect is a tricky thing... it can touch on nerves that go very deep.
When Star Trek goes amiss like in the disastrous Fairhaven episodes, I try to chalk it up to ignorance, an unintentional gaffe. But I can appreciate the ramifications to those who are sensitive about it... because it's an unfortunate fact that misrepresentations of historical facts in dramas can influence some audience members to adopt erroneous beliefs. And that is upsetting, especially when it touches on something very significant to one's cultural history.
Meanwhile, back to the original intent of the thread.
I found the review highly subjective, not backed by much substance. It's an opinion... easy to cheer for it if you agree. I don't. DS9 was a very good Star Trek incarnation, but the best? I think it had some of the best episodes in the franchise. They all did. And DS9 had a good number of them. I wouldn't call it the best series... but then, I won't call any of them that because they each have their own prized attributes and unique quality. It's not fair to compare entire series to each other, IMHO.
I can appreciate criticism for a Star Trek episode that makes an obvious faux pas (mistake), like confusing Irish and English cultures. The writers should have done their homework. They're not writing to American audiences--it's the world. Star Trek is watched the world over. And yes, people get insulted when such blatant treatments are presented. Disrespect is a tricky thing... it can touch on nerves that go very deep.
When Star Trek goes amiss like in the disastrous Fairhaven episodes, I try to chalk it up to ignorance, an unintentional gaffe. But I can appreciate the ramifications to those who are sensitive about it... because it's an unfortunate fact that misrepresentations of historical facts in dramas can influence some audience members to adopt erroneous beliefs. And that is upsetting, especially when it touches on something very significant to one's cultural history.
Meanwhile, back to the original intent of the thread.
I found the review highly subjective, not backed by much substance. It's an opinion... easy to cheer for it if you agree. I don't. DS9 was a very good Star Trek incarnation, but the best? I think it had some of the best episodes in the franchise. They all did. And DS9 had a good number of them. I wouldn't call it the best series... but then, I won't call any of them that because they each have their own prized attributes and unique quality. It's not fair to compare entire series to each other, IMHO.
I agree "leaps and bounds superior" Oh please. This guy gets space in the local paper to share his opinions and he chooses to give props to DS9... No problem with that but he does it by comparing it to the others Yacking away about how much one Show sucks because *insert stupid "reason" like Wesley was a dweeb* what a waste of ink and time reading that took five minutes of my life I'll never get back.
Yeah, it's not an especially incisive piece of commentary, though I basically agree with him. Of course, it was written back when DS9 and Voyager were both on the air, so it's natural that this comparison would be in the forefront of his mind.
Really the Voyager comparison doesn't say all that much about DS9 in my view because Voyager is, well, not very good a lot of the time. The TNG and TOS comparisons are more interesting (especially TNG seasons 3-6).
I don't really see why. It's just folly to think that one can objectively establish one series as superior to another (which this reviewer doesn't really do, he just states his opinion in a civil manner).
For my money, DS9 is leaps and bounds superior to Voyager and the best of the Trek series. But that has a lot to do with the type of characters and stories I enjoy. It's only folly if the goal is to establish some kind of absolute standard.
Similar threads
