Nine reasons why Deep Space Nine is the best Star Trek

[TheGodBen]

Do you think so? Personally, I think that the brutal murder of 6,000,000 innocent people is comparable to a bad episode of a sci-fi show.

Oh Jesus fucking Christ. You compare the Holocaust to a bad TV episode?!?! You need help, seriously.

I don't see anything wrong with comparing a bad episode of Star Trek to the Holocaust, the Holocaust was just something Spielberg dreamed up for that Shindler's List movie, it's not like as if it really happened.

Spoiler: my posts

I understand that sarcasm can be hard to read on the internet, but surely the absurdity of my statement, combined with the use of the smiley, tipped you off?

 

[PKTrekGirl]

Okay, folks, let's simmer down here.

GodBen, let's skip the whole 'VOY is terrible because it makes light of the Irish Famine' thing. Those were only two holodeck episides, first of all. And the episodes don't say that the famine didn't happen or anything - they are just stupid little sketches that take place in one small imaginary Irish village - a village that Janeway MADE UP, just to live out an escapist fantasy. They were never intended to accurately represent Irish life during that time, any more than Tom Paris's Captain Proton holodeck programs were intended to accurately represent reality.

That is why thay HAD holodeck programs to begin with - to escape or 'change' reality - not reality in general or in any way that was 'real', but THEIR reality, TEMPORARILY, as a way of escape into fantasy.

Also, you have to remember that this is an AMERICAN TV show. If we wrote our self-described escapist TV shows around every tragedy in human history (which we would have to do, since this country is a melting pot full of immigrants from pretty much every country on earth) we would never get a TV show written. If this were a documentary we were talking about...or a show that was intended to be based seriously in history, I would fully support your beef. But two holodeck (ie - fantasy) episodes of a scifi show just can't be taken seriously as an intentional racist affront to a whole nation of people, when the episodes were never intended to re-write history or anything like that.

YOU don't have to like them - and I can fully support that decision, whether your reasons be based on historical fact not supporting the plot or on the fact that they were simply bad writing. But insisting that VOY in general is a racist show, simply because of these two holodeck episodes, is really stretching, I think. Not to mention the fact that the same could be said about DS9 by the American Indians, who Bashir and O'Brien spent hours and hours of their time trying to defeat. Yes, those holodeck adventures took place off-screen (thank goodness), but they did have the model in Quarks, and a few conversations they had clearly demonstrated that they were attempting to figure out a way to achieve a different outcome from what really happened. But the point was not that they were trying to change real history for all mankind - they were simply using a historical incident to have some fantasized fun. Which was exactly what Janeway was attempting to do with Fairhaven.

Remember, even Sisko ultimately decided that helping his friend Vic was more important than was protesting an inaccurate representation of the times when it came to the treatment of African Americans.

 

[TheGodBen]

GodBen, let's skip the whole 'VOY is terrible because it makes light of the Irish Famine' thing.

I never suggested any such thing, I said that those two episodes were terrible for ignoring many aspects of Irish history, the famine being one of them.

Those were only two holodeck episides, first of all. And the episodes don't say that the famine didn't happen or anything - they are just stupid little sketches that take place in one small imaginary Irish village - a village that Janeway MADE UP, just to live out an escapist fantasy. They were never intended to accurately represent Irish life during that time, any more than Tom Paris's Captain Proton holodeck programs were intended to accurately represent reality.

Except for this line from the episode:

JANEWAY: You have outdone yourself this time. Everything is authentic, except for one tiny detail.
...
DR SHMULLY: As I recall, the Captain is quite an aficionado of Irish history.

The episode tries to pass off Fair Haven as being an authentic version of an Irish village in the later half of the 19th century, and the only detail that Tom apparently got wrong while building the program was that he had the harp backwards. Everything else is supposedly exactly the way it really was, which is complete nonsense.

Also, you have to remember that this is an AMERICAN TV show.

So?

You know what else was an American TV show? Deep Space Nine. DS9 had an Irish character in O'Brien, and what I love about O'Brien is that he's not treated as "the Irish guy", he's a person that just happens to be Irish. He's not a stereotype, he's not a drunk, he doesn't speak with that godawful Hollywood-Irish accent, he's a regular guy that mentions his family in Dublin once or twice a season, and that's all there is to it.

If DS9 can get an Irish character so right, then I'm entitled to criticise Voyager for getting it so wrong. And TNG for Up the Long Ladder.

YOU don't have to like them - and I can fully support that decision, whether your reasons be based on historical fact not supporting the plot or on the fact that they were simply bad writing. But insisting that VOY in general is a racist show, simply because of these two holodeck episodes, is really stretching, I think.

I never said that Voyager was a racist show, I said that those two episodes are borderline racist, and I stand by that claim.

Remember, even Sisko ultimately decided that helping his friend Vic was more important than was protesting an inaccurate representation of the times when it came to the treatment of African Americans.

When I reviewed Fair Haven last year, this is what I had to say:

Having watched Darby O'Gill and the Little People does not make one an aficionado of Irish history. The program seems to be based in the late 19th century, probably between 1870-1900 in which case the episode is missing several important features; the land war, religious tensions, mass emigration, the Home Rule movement and... oh yeah, the fact that the country was still occupied by a foreign power.

The later half of the 19th century was a turbulent time in Irish history and the political fallout from the period sowed the seeds for the eventual creation of the Irish Free State in 1922. I'm not saying that the episode should have focused on these things because the writers clearly wanted the episode to be a light story about a romantic entanglement with a hologram, but if you're going to play so fast and loose with history then you shouldn't be patting yourself on the back for being so accurate.

...

Imagine if Tom had decided to make a holoprogram set in an African American community and he has all the black characters being of lower than average intelligence, they survive on a diet of watermelons and fried chicken and they add "izzle" to the end of every second word. Now imagine he set the program in Mississippi in the 1960s and completely failed to mention anything about the racial tensions and the civil rights movement. Now imagine Janeway walking in and saying "This is very authentic work Tom, and I should know because I'm an expert on African American culture, my nizzle".

 

[Anwar]

Keep in mind, Trek is in a world where humanity was devastated by WWIII and temporarily devolved into the post-Atomic horror. It's possible all that remains of Irish history are the kind of "Oireland" stereotypes seen in Fairhaven.

 

[Cyke101]

Do you think so? Personally, I think that the brutal murder of 6,000,000 innocent people is comparable to a bad episode of a sci-fi show.

Oh Jesus fucking Christ. You compare the Holocaust to a bad TV episode?!?! You need help, seriously.

I don't see anything wrong with comparing a bad episode of Star Trek to the Holocaust, the Holocaust was just something Spielberg dreamed up for that Shindler's List movie, it's not like as if it really happened.

Spoiler: my posts

I understand that sarcasm can be hard to read on the internet, but surely the absurdity of my statement, combined with the use of the smiley, tipped you off?

You'll have to forgive Jarod. Anyone who simplifies an already simple ending for Star Trek XI is prone not understand sarcasm or hints like smilies (<--clue!)

Back on topic: In fairness to Voyager, the article was written in 1999, two years before the show ended. Voyager turned out a handful of pretty good episodes since that article.

 

[JarodRussell]

You'll have to forgive Jarod. Anyone who simplifies an already simple ending for Star Trek XI is prone not understand sarcasm or hints like smilies (<--clue!).

You are an idiot.

 

[Quinton O'Connor]

Well, I'm going to thank Jarod for answering my question and then...

...run like the wind away from this thread.

 

[zar]

DS9 had an Irish character in O'Brien, and what I love about O'Brien is that he's not treated as "the Irish guy", he's a person that just happens to be Irish. He's not a stereotype, he's not a drunk, he doesn't speak with that godawful Hollywood-Irish accent, he's a regular guy that mentions his family in Dublin once or twice a season, and that's all there is to it.

If DS9 can get an Irish character so right, then I'm entitled to criticise Voyager for getting it so wrong. And TNG for Up the Long Ladder.

In defense of TNG, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5vtZGJ1X8Y

 

[TheGodBen]

In defense of TNG, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5vtZGJ1X8Y

Oh yeah, TNG got it right with O'Brien most of the time, it was just Up The Long Ladder that I have a problem with.

Although Berman even managed to screw up that lovely scene for me with this quote:

That was a wonderful English hymn...

It was an Irish actor playing an Irish character singing an Irish song about an Irish rebellion, at what point did the word "English" enter into his mind? The stupid Canadian doesn't know anything.

 

[Anwar]

Ah yes, one tiny lapse is completely due to being Canadian. Glad to see you think of us so highly.

 

[TheGodBen]

I really need to find a way to harness my jokes to power aeroplanes, because they're flying way over people's heads today.

 

[Cyke101]

You'll have to forgive Jarod. Anyone who simplifies an already simple ending for Star Trek XI is prone not understand sarcasm or hints like smilies (<--clue!).

You are an idiot.

Read the sig, buddy.

Thank you and good night!

 

[Anwar]

I really need to find a way to harness my jokes to power aeroplanes, because they're flying way over people's heads today.

You're having an off-day. They just aren't that funny.

 

[Quinton O'Connor]

I could cut the tension in this thread with a self-sealing stembolt.

Now, if you'll excuse me... one of you is a Changeling.

 

[TheGodBen]

Now, if you'll excuse me... one of you is a Changeling.

Wait a minute, how could you know that? Unless... you're a Changeling! Kill him!

 

[Quinton O'Connor]

Well, damn. One of you is a Cylon? Uhh, one of you is... a lucky winner!?

 

[Thor Damar]

Well, I'm God, although I'll thank you not to call me that.

 

[Quinton O'Connor]

Well, I'm God, although I'll thank you not to call me that.

 

[PKTrekGirl]

You'll have to forgive Jarod. Anyone who simplifies an already simple ending for Star Trek XI is prone not understand sarcasm or hints like smilies (<--clue!).

You are an idiot.

JarodRussell, I should really warn you for this post as it is way out of line. The only reason I'm not is because there has been a lot of nonsense posted in this thread, and if I went through this thing using the letter of the law, it would be pretty damned ugly for more than just you.

That said, do this again in this or any other thread in this forum and you will have a warning for flaming.

And Cyke101, smilies stuck on the end of otherwise sarcastic and mean remarks to not change the meaning at all for me. As a rule, except with their closest friends (which, by the way, I have no way of knowing), and especially in threads were there is heavy debate and hostility, people tend to say what they really mean. And sticking a smilie at the end does not fundamentally change matters in most cases. It's just an attempted end-run around a warning for flaming. And that dog don't hunt.

Now, I want everyone in this thread to knock off the hostility. I seriously CANNOT believe how the fans of two shows, one of which has been off the air for over a decade and one of which has been off the air for just under a decade, STILL cannot seem to get along. You'd have thought that by now, everyone who was old enough to turn on a TV set when these shows aired would have grown up enough to not take this shit so seriously.

These are TV shows, folks. Not matters of life and death. Debate if you like...but good grief, how about we all act like civilized adults, not like whiny cry-babies, arrogant jerks, or general douchebags, as has often been the case when it comes to discussions involving this particular topic. It is really not that difficult to post in a reasonable tone and have a mature discussion. And I, for one, would LOVE to see just one of these DS9 v. VOY threads get conducted in a civilized manner, without moderator intervention, before I frakkin' DIE. And I'm sure the VOY mods feel exactly the same way.

I am rapidly pulling up on my 8th anniversary as mod of this forum. And seriously - having this same conversation, with pretty much the same group of people, over and over and over is really getting ridiculous.

I mean, seriously - it it even a possibility? Or are we gonna go on like this until we have to simply put a moratorium on DS9 v. VOY threads, like we had to do with B5 several years back, because you guys just can't find it within yourselves to get along for more than 10 seconds at a stretch?

If that's what it's gonna take, then I will have a little chat with the VOY mods and we can make that happen. But I'd really like to believe that we are capable of dialing back the 'tudes and getting along.

Any more nonsense and I'm locking this thread and going through the whole thing with a fine-toothed comb...and issuing warnings. And starting a dialogue with the VOY mods about what we can do about this constant and seemingly endless sniping and bickering.

But really, it would a whole lot more pleasant for all of us if you guys could either learn to get along...or agree to disagree and move on with your lives already.

Which show is 'better' is a matter of subjective personal opinion - not objective fact. And in 8 years as mod of this forum, I've never ONCE seen anyone involved in these endless debates actually 'see the light' (whatever that is) and change sides.

We all like what we like. And ultimately, we should all be happy for each other, that we all have found a show in the Trek universe we enjoy.

 

[PKTrekGirl]

I really need to find a way to harness my jokes to power aeroplanes, because they're flying way over people's heads today.

Maybe because...well...a large part of them are more 'mean' than 'funny', perhaps?

As I said in my previous post, smilies or not, most of the time in contentious threads like this one, people are saying EXACTLY what they mean. And slapping a smilie on the end of an otherwise mean or cruel statement doesn't fool anyone. Or at least not anyone who has been down this same road, with the same posters, the first 500 or so times.

Please, let's knock off the 'jokes', such as they are, and play nice.

Thanks.