Nicholas Meyer's Interpretation of Star Trek
- Thread starter Clark Terrell
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I like the way the TOS uniforms in the recent movies are the shipboard uniforms and the grew ones are the ones they wear for formal occasions or meeting Starfleet brass (and the shipboard ones are seen rarely when on Earth or at a Starbase.)
J.T.B., I guess what I mean to say is that the Wrath of Khan "uniforms" still seemed to try to borrow from the original's overall design, whilst adding all of those bells and whistles you mentioned. "They" knew, long before Nick Meyer came on the scene that no matter what was done with the uniforms, there were so many in storage from TMP, that they were going to have to be used, some way, or another. And you're right, the overall effect is very distracting. I could've done without the whole, Enterprise downgrade to training vessel thing, in the first place.
STAR TREK II did not seem to like being burdened with a cast of old people and went out of its way to emphasize it. In my view, this only distracted from the storytelling, not helped it. Yes, they're old, why are we harping on this? Do you want Kirk and company in these movies or not? What's the problem? I feel that TMP had it right, by touching on it, without harping on it. But that's me. It was enough to acknowledge the passing of time by not pretending Kirk could still pull women, like he used to. Or, indeed, at all. Even the rather plain whale biologist was like, "I'm not having this ..." and kissed him off, at the end. But they had to touch on it, because it's "dramatic" or whatever. I don't know ...
STAR TREK II did not seem to like being burdened with a cast of old people and went out of its way to emphasize it. In my view, this only distracted from the storytelling, not helped it. Yes, they're old, why are we harping on this? Do you want Kirk and company in these movies or not? What's the problem? I feel that TMP had it right, by touching on it, without harping on it. But that's me. It was enough to acknowledge the passing of time by not pretending Kirk could still pull women, like he used to. Or, indeed, at all. Even the rather plain whale biologist was like, "I'm not having this ..." and kissed him off, at the end. But they had to touch on it, because it's "dramatic" or whatever. I don't know ...
I always hated the "monster maroon" uniforms. They made the Enterprise crew look like they belonged in a roadshow production of The Music Man.
trevanian
Rear Admiral
See, and i don't think they went far enough with it. Pre-Meyer, the Jack Sowards script for this called THE OMEGA SYSTEM included a bigger idea as explained in Asherman's MAKING OF ST2 ... that as Kirk turns 50, Starfleet abandons the 'explore strange/boldly go' credo in favor of just protecting its existing territories ... so Kirk is questioning not just his personal choices re: being single, no ties, but wondering about the worthiness of committing so much to an ideal that is now being abandoned.
Though none of this every really got into the film, there are touches of this counter-GR Starfleet in SFS and TUC, where it seems like there is very rabid and retro paranoid thinking and very little of the exploration motif (outside of TFF and the boring + plot-driven gaseous anomalies of TUC.)
I also think this would address your 'do you want kirk etc.' aspect, because if the movies had been smart they'd've let Kirk & co split from Starfleet and concentrated on these guys on the BoP in their golden years. Then you don't have to blow your budget to pay for matte shots of San Francisco and try to find stock fx elements of the big ugly mushroom dock for each show, you can spend that on showing some strange NEW world and spend more time on the characters than on this Fed infrastructure. The downside is you do without the ENTERPRISE, and that is a biggie, but hey, they were going to try to go on without Spock, so I guess there'd always be 'possibilities.'
Agreed.
This sounds like a giant case of "missing the point" as WOK isn't criticizing old age or begrudged to address it, but instead is a meditation on it. Considering Kirk was in his 50s it seemed appropriate and was executed perfectly as a fully rounded theme and part of Kirk's character development. Everyone gets old and their past comes back to the present when they age, be it a short lived relationship which brought about a son and family that could have been, a villain who holds the grudge, the experience of commanding a ship like few others can, all the times Kirk cheated death and felt it a certainty, all those times with Spock that lead to Kirk not being able to conceptualize a reality with out him. Aging, at it's core, is a change of life not unlike many others: you notice a change, you reason and feel out what it means to you, and work to accept it. This whole movie is primarily about Kirk coming to terms with change and not being afraid of it, something Khan could not do in the least despite his stated superiority to Kirk (in the end it killed him).
Those are the reasons it's continually brought up, because it's a major theme of the movie, and not a negative one either; note Kirk's disposition when he is talking Ms. Marcus about how he feels old and worn out vs. his disposition after Spockss death: "I feel young". Kirk has discovered the world anew and found a sunrise (just like the shot before hand instead of the darkness and confines of decrepitude he was certain he'd be shackled to, he has gained wisdom and is able take on life again (besting Khan, parting with Spock, making up with David, accepting change).
The fact that this is so incredibly clear while watching the film makes both your statements extremely baffling to me.
Those are the reasons it's continually brought up, because it's a major theme of the movie, and not a negative one either; note Kirk's disposition when he is talking Ms. Marcus about how he feels old and worn out vs. his disposition after Spockss death: "I feel young". Kirk has discovered the world anew and found a sunrise (just like the shot before hand instead of the darkness and confines of decrepitude he was certain he'd be shackled to, he has gained wisdom and is able take on life again (besting Khan, parting with Spock, making up with David, accepting change).
The fact that this is so incredibly clear while watching the film makes both your statements extremely baffling to me.
It shouldn't be baffling. The cast was only three years older than they were in TMP and there they were set to go on new adventures. Now along comes Meyer and Bennett ready to retire them in addition to all the other stuff they did.
Treating the characters that way also didn't work in context of people of the future supposedly living longer. Hell, in TNG Picard has to be pushing 60 and he certainly wasn't ready to park his ass in a rocking chair.
Part of the problem also stems from Trek being done on film. That medium doesn't allow for the kind of adventures you can have on television because you get a two hour film only every two or three years whereas on television you can get at least twenty adventures a season. The suspension of disbelief is easier on television because the characters age more gradually before your eyes.
Looking back the whole TWOK-TUC is a winding down and ending of the TOS crew after TMP promised a new beginning. I found that saddening.
I still do.
Treating the characters that way also didn't work in context of people of the future supposedly living longer. Hell, in TNG Picard has to be pushing 60 and he certainly wasn't ready to park his ass in a rocking chair.
Part of the problem also stems from Trek being done on film. That medium doesn't allow for the kind of adventures you can have on television because you get a two hour film only every two or three years whereas on television you can get at least twenty adventures a season. The suspension of disbelief is easier on television because the characters age more gradually before your eyes.
Looking back the whole TWOK-TUC is a winding down and ending of the TOS crew after TMP promised a new beginning. I found that saddening.
I still do.
It IS baffling because the entire point of the film is Kirk realizing he isn't ready to resign himself to desk flying and retirement, that he should be out there "hopping galaxies" as McCoy put it. "I feel young" does not equate to "lets retire".
Undiscovered Country is a rather different situation in this concern.
TWOK was a reset button and an unnecessary one. Kirk had already done desk duty and gotten his command back, but Meyer and Bennett wiped that away to do it again. Upon seeing this in 1982 my immediate reaction was 
Of course that was along with me saying over the Enterprise being a training vessel.
Bennett had long wanted to do a Starfleet Academy type story and the beginning of TWOK retains a trace of that. Flash forward and they do it again in ST09 although Bennett had nothing to do with that.
I didn't care for it before, then and later and I still don't care for it.
Of course that was along with me saying
over the Enterprise being a training vessel.Bennett had long wanted to do a Starfleet Academy type story and the beginning of TWOK retains a trace of that. Flash forward and they do it again in ST09 although Bennett had nothing to do with that.
I didn't care for it before, then and later and I still don't care for it.
That sounds to me like the same kind of argument often leveled against TMP. It assumes that some kinds of stories are off-limits to Trek. I disagree. The actors were older, the characters were older, it's human to think about one's mortality and place in the world at a certain age; why can't Star Trek address that in a story? And considering that the Spock character was intended to be killed off, a somewhat sober and reflective tone seems perfectly appropriate. It was an element of the picture that I thought was handled quite well.
I also like that it took on the issue like a stand-alone movie would, rather than a franchise "episode" following some sequel-making formula.
Excellent!
Worked for you. Doesn't work for me. We'll have to agree to disagree.
Exactly; he was older than he was in TMP, so his feelings would intensify as more years pass--particularly when (in TWOK), he's constantly reminded of his younger years: Khan, Carol, and in his present, an even younger officer in Saavik representing the Starfleet of tomorrow.
Just because Kirk dealt with the age matter in TMP (more about being out of touch with running a starship than anything else) does not mean he would not struggle with it in the years to come. It should be expected that he would be hit harder in the years after TMP.
That isn't the point. The point is they threw away "the final frontier" type stories to mine the past for story. And it isn't until TFF that they get back to the kind of thing that could have followed TMP. And then in TUC they actually have them retiring.
TMP promised more "final frontier" and "strange new world" adventure and then we got nothing like that. I fell like the entire period of the '80s were wasted. After TMP the only "final frontier" type adventure we got was half-assed in TFF. Then it was left for TNG to pick up the fallen baton.
TMP promised more "final frontier" and "strange new world" adventure and then we got nothing like that. I fell like the entire period of the '80s were wasted. After TMP the only "final frontier" type adventure we got was half-assed in TFF. Then it was left for TNG to pick up the fallen baton.
Let me ask you a question...
What, ultimately, is the point of a movie? To entertain? Nope. You're wrong. It's to make money. Yes, the entertainment is a nice byproduct and I sure as hell do a lot to fill the pockets of people in the entertainment industry.
Looking at the audience between 1979-1991, what do audiences want? Well, one can argue that the 1970s were an amazing era of film. They have classics like The Godfather, Taxi Driverand Network. But in the 1980s (and I blame Star Wars for this, we start to see more action-adventure blockbusters. TMP was a product of its era. Yes, it was based on the success of Star Wars but it tried to remain truthful to the three years of TOS. And as I've grown up I've been able to appreciate TMP a lot more. It's now one of my favorites. And sure, TMP brought in the moviegoing public. Adjusted for inflation, it's #2 behind ST09. You can put that to a lot of points but probably mainly because people hadn't seen new shows in ten years. But when you look at it from a critical standpoint and a view from the general public? Well, they don't like it much.
So, yeah, Paramount showed Gene the door, slapped him with an Executive Consultant credit and have the reigns to Bennett and Meyer. Why? Because the moviegoing audience wanted 'splosions. They wanted conflict. Not people arguing on the bridge and looking out the viewscreen for ten minutes. They wanted a blockbuster. Well, the Trek movies didn't really reach that point more than a handful of times, but damnit, they tried.
Ultimately, the goal is to reach the moviegoing public. And the moviegoing public doesn't go for exploration. They want action. Like it or not. That's why the Abrams movies have been succesful. Oh, I also like those too.
But I hate TVH.
What, ultimately, is the point of a movie? To entertain? Nope. You're wrong. It's to make money. Yes, the entertainment is a nice byproduct and I sure as hell do a lot to fill the pockets of people in the entertainment industry.
Looking at the audience between 1979-1991, what do audiences want? Well, one can argue that the 1970s were an amazing era of film. They have classics like The Godfather, Taxi Driverand Network. But in the 1980s (and I blame Star Wars for this, we start to see more action-adventure blockbusters. TMP was a product of its era. Yes, it was based on the success of Star Wars but it tried to remain truthful to the three years of TOS. And as I've grown up I've been able to appreciate TMP a lot more. It's now one of my favorites. And sure, TMP brought in the moviegoing public. Adjusted for inflation, it's #2 behind ST09. You can put that to a lot of points but probably mainly because people hadn't seen new shows in ten years. But when you look at it from a critical standpoint and a view from the general public? Well, they don't like it much.
So, yeah, Paramount showed Gene the door, slapped him with an Executive Consultant credit and have the reigns to Bennett and Meyer. Why? Because the moviegoing audience wanted 'splosions. They wanted conflict. Not people arguing on the bridge and looking out the viewscreen for ten minutes. They wanted a blockbuster. Well, the Trek movies didn't really reach that point more than a handful of times, but damnit, they tried.
Ultimately, the goal is to reach the moviegoing public. And the moviegoing public doesn't go for exploration. They want action. Like it or not. That's why the Abrams movies have been succesful. Oh, I also like those too.
But I hate TVH.
WOK wasn't a success because of action and explosions, it was a success because it stayed true to and elaborated upon the characters we knew from the show, because it was well paced with a good story, and a plethora of resonant themes that grew organically from the plot, and well placed action that furthered the story when it needed it.
Not that most casual movie go-er can articulate such things, but I'd argue TMP skates by more on it's level of visceral experience way more than WOK does. One need look at the new Trek movies, Transformers, and similar schlock to see movies that are a success more for the explosion a minute set pieces and editing than for a story and characters.
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You know what, I was expressing a point. In fact, I was actually playing devil's advocate. I think the fact that I stated that I liked TMP would have proven that. I would expect a little bit more mature of a response than "Whatever" in a Trek forum.
Guess if I don't hate Abrams Trek, I can't get that here.
Sorry, that wasn't directed at you, Synnöve.
Guess if I don't hate Abrams Trek, I can't get that here.
Sorry, that wasn't directed at you, Synnöve.
It's been explained clearly and repeatedly so what else is there to say?
People seem locked into the idea it has to be either this or that and seemingly not able to see any other possibilities. Following up TMP doesn't automatically mean doing exactly what TMP did. TOS is full of different kinds of story ideas that didn't involve looking back and resurrecting something (or someone) done before.
Many of the ideas in TWOK still could have been done in a different way, but they chose not to do that. They chose to hit the reset button and erase/ignore what TMP had set up.
We're not going to agree on this. You're fine with what they did and I'm not.
