Nicholas Meyer's Interpretation of Star Trek

[Warped9]

The look Meyer gave the films TWOK-TUC tainted them for me. Even more so now than originally because it looks like an alternate universe. Maybe it sounds shallow, but it just looks wrong. I gelt the same way when they started darkening the sets and uniforms of TNG--it just looks wrong after what had been established.

Looking back it looked like a deliberate move to change Star Trek's identity.

 

[Lance]

The things I don't like are mostly picky things. I don't like the uniforms at all. I don't like the look and the "formality", but mostly I don't like that they don't look like they evolved from anything that had been seen before. And I hate that officer and enlisted uniforms were separated into completely different designs. The concepts just don't seem plausible.

One thing I very much dislike is the ranking system.

I think there was something excellent about William Ware Theiss' original Star Trek ranking system, in that it was simple, but elegant in that simplicity. At a glance, any viewer can tell easily by the TOS uniforms what rank an officer is, what department he or she works for, and where he or she belongs in the command structure.

You know, those arm braids were *all* they needed. Even the TNG uniforms (which were again designed by Theiss, of course) were brilliant in this way, because again they made the rank structure simple to understand. Four pips, three pips, two pips and a half pip, it was very basic, but completely plausible.

I confess: I never understood the movies ranking system.

I find the ranking system developed for TWOK and used in all of the TOS movies entirely obtuse.

All those little medallions and trinkets on people's arms and on the flap fastener. All the "bling".

Sure, it's probably more believable, as a proper military ranking system. But I think it loses a little something. It doesn't have the immediate simplicity of TOS's arm braids or TNG's collar pips.

First and foremost, Star Trek is an entertainment medium. And as such it needs to be accessible to any audience member, no matter their, um, level of perception.

Some details, like the rank structure on the uniforms, are IMO better done in "broad strokes" rather than all the fiddly details that the TWOK-TUC uniforms present us with.

I found it insulting when Robert Fletcher claimed in an interview that Star Trek uniforms didn't have a proper rank structure before he created the TWOK costumes.

Maybe it didn't, maybe TOS had a simplistic ranking system. But I challenge Fletcher's assertion that this was in any way a bad thing.

 

[Warped9]

^^ Very much agreed.

To be fair even TMP's ranking system left something to be desired.

 

[J.T.B.]

The look Meyer gave the films TWOK-TUC tainted them for me. Even more so now than originally because it looks like an alternate universe. Maybe it sounds shallow, but it just looks wrong. I gelt the same way when they started darkening the sets and uniforms of TNG--it just looks wrong after what had been established.

Looking back it looked like a deliberate move to change Star Trek's identity.

With the pride that military/paramilitary organizations take in their uniforms, historically, the only thing that causes such a radical and rapid change is a coup or revolution, and the desire to stamp out the reminders of the old regime. Which might be the case here, but only behind-the-scenes...

You know, those arm braids were *all* they needed.

I agree but for one thing: There was no provision for short sleeves or clothing where stripes on the cuffs wouldn't be practical. That's why Fletcher's TMP shoulder tabs were a welcome addition. Their visibility wasn't great, but they were there.

Sure, it's probably more believable, as a proper military ranking system. But I think it loses a little something. It doesn't have the immediate simplicity of TOS's arm braids or TNG's collar pips.

I don't even think it's more believable. A system of sleeve stripes (which can also be easily applied to the shoulders) has proven so successful in the real world that it is not only used by most of the world's navies, but many of its air forces as well as the maritime and commercial aviation industries. It's as close to a "universal" rank system as anything in the world today, and was perfectly believable as applied in TOS/TMP.

I understand the desire to change the look of a production for whatever reasons. The TMP uniforms carried on enough of TOS cues that they could be seen as something that evolved from that, or a least as a big-screen extrapolation of the originals. The change from TMP to TWOK was change for the sake of change, with no in-story rationale. Applying the known rank insignia to the new style of costumes would have gone a long way toward maintaining their credibility. The fairly arbitrary system of metal pins just seems to come out of left field.

 

[Clark Terrell]

^^ Very much agreed.

To be fair even TMP's ranking system left something to be desired.

I never had a problem with TMP's ranking system, as it was similar to TOS and featured the same rank braids we saw before. What was different were the epaulets on the shoulders. I also wasn't totally clear why some officers wore the blue-gray uniform while others wore yellow or beige.

 

[drt]

^^ Very much agreed.

To be fair even TMP's ranking system left something to be desired.

I never had a problem with TMP's ranking system, as it was similar to TOS and featured the same rank braids we saw before. What was different were the epaulets on the shoulders. I also wasn't totally clear why some officers wore the blue-gray uniform while others wore yellow or beige.

For the most part, "senior" officers wore the blue-grey, and the "junior" ones wore the beige, but for some reason Ilia is in grey, when she should have been beige, my guess they made this change because the beige didn't work as well with her skin tone and bald head.

 

[Warped9]

When I look at the TMP uniforms I felt they weren't far off.

The tunic or shirt hems were a bit too low. The slacks could have been more like regular straight leg slacks. Think of someone wearing a nice pair of casual slacks with a long sleeved Polo shirt or sweater but of nicer material. The boots or bootlets would be separate. Men and women wear the same basic uniform, but there can be alternates. Men and women could have a short sleeve tunic and women could have a short sleeve or long sleeve proper dress (no scants). The ship's commander could also have a third command alternate. Also a more loose fitting fatigue or overall (instead of the ridiculous thing Decker was wearing) for regular crew.

Next a four or five colour department system: Operations (Command, Helm, Navigation, Weapons), Sciences (all departments), Life Sciences (Medical), Support (Engineering, Communications and Support Services) and Security..

Operations - Gold or Taupe
Sciences - Blue
Life Sciences - Green (or a softer blue)
Support - Red (or a tone of grey)
Security - Grey (seriously you don't want a colour that makes you an easily visible target)

And you could have muted tones to fit the overall aesthetic of TMP rather than the vivid tones of TOS.

In terms of ranking keep the TOS system yet offer an alternative for short sleeve tunics.

Regarding insignia I would have simply retained the three from TOS.

Command - Star
Sciences & Life Sciences - Circle
Support & Security - Swirl

The Arrowhead insignia would apply to all ship based personnel. I would have something else (a stylized starburst?) for starbase personnel. If there is a merchant marine or some other support division (for freighters and transports) then we could have something else for them


This would be a simple and easy to follow system while adding a bit more detail for sake of being on the big screen. The final element could be field jackets (something between the TMP and TWOK designs). You could even have something heavier for even harsher environments.

 

[Warped9]

^^ Very much agreed.

To be fair even TMP's ranking system left something to be desired.

I never had a problem with TMP's ranking system, as it was similar to TOS and featured the same rank braids we saw before. What was different were the epaulets on the shoulders. I also wasn't totally clear why some officers wore the blue-gray uniform while others wore yellow or beige.

For the most part, "senior" officers wore the blue-grey, and the "junior" ones wore the beige, but for some reason Ilia is in grey, when she should have been beige, my guess they made this change because the beige didn't work as well with her skin tone and bald head.

Yeah, it was confusing.

 

[J.T.B.]

For the most part, "senior" officers wore the blue-grey, and the "junior" ones wore the beige, but for some reason Ilia is in grey, when she should have been beige, my guess they made this change because the beige didn't work as well with her skin tone and bald head.

Also the Billy Van Zandt ensign wears blue-gray, so it doesn't seem to be a senior/junior thing.

 

[Clark Terrell]

Also the Billy Van Zandt ensign wears blue-gray, so it doesn't seem to be a senior/junior thing.

Not at all. Yes, Kirk, Spock and Decker wore blue-gray. But Sulu, Uhura, and Chekov wore yellow, cream or beige despite being senior officers. And Ilia, a junior officer, wore blue-gray, too.

 

[drt]

My thinking was that we were still supposed to consider Sulu, Uhura and Chekov as "junior" officers.

Forgot about Ensign Forehead wearing the blue, but I figured there were others that didn't fit hence my "mostly" clarifier, as it seems the original idea for the color difference appears to have been dropped along the way most likely due to production reasons.

 

[Warped9]

Back in TOS technically speaking I think Uhura belonged in Gold (shouldn't Communications be part of Operations?), but they liked her in red better.

 

[Clark Terrell]

My thinking was that we were still supposed to consider Sulu, Uhura and Chekov as "junior" officers.

I find that hard to accept. Sulu was second officer and held the rank of lieutenant commander. Uhura was also a lieutenant commander. Chekov was only a lieutenant but was security chief.

 

[J.T.B.]

Forgot about Ensign Forehead wearing the blue, but I figured there were others that didn't fit hence my "mostly" clarifier, as it seems the original idea for the color difference appears to have been dropped along the way most likely due to production reasons.

I think you're probably right about that, but if we're trying for an "in-universe" system it's hard to come up with something consistent that fits all the evidence.

Back in TOS technically speaking I think Uhura belonged in Gold (shouldn't Communications be part of Operations?), but they liked her in red better.

Hard to say. In TOS gold was "command," which was later split into "command" and "operations." Most of the goldshirt jobs we know about in TOS centered around helm/nav and weapon control, so communications falling under "ship's services" doesn't seem too far out of line, but either way works for me.

My thinking was that we were still supposed to consider Sulu, Uhura and Chekov as "junior" officers.

I find that hard to accept. Sulu was second officer and held the rank of lieutenant commander. Uhura was also a lieutenant commander. Chekov was only a lieutenant but was security chief.

Well there is a traditional naval dividing line between lieutenant commander and commander (commanders get scrambled egg on their caps), but whether that applies to Starfleet is anybody's guess. I'm curious about the second officer thing, though, where does that come from? It would seem that Commander Scott (and Spock after he's aboard) should be in line before LCDR Sulu.

 

[sonak]

The red tunics looked great in Wrath of Khan. I don't know if it's because of the film stock Meyer used and/or the lighting, or just the newness of the uniforms, or even the fact that the cast was relatively "youthful," but they really look crisp and sharp. After that, the very same, standard tunic started to look less "believable" and more like a costume, to me - especially in The Undiscovered Country. Personally, I find the "uniforms" of The Motion Picture to be far more appropriate StarFleet attire - and they just look better. But Star Trek II's stiff, wool tunics hide many sins, which I understand, completely. Like Kirk and Scotty's cannonball guts, for example.

Outside of the very obvious uniform changes, I hated Meyer's having made the TOS crew "intolerant," "xenophobic," or even "racist" to a certain degree. And David Marcus' murder was a poor excuse to justify it. Yes, STAR TREK is made-up fantasy and it's cool to be unconcerned with "tradition," but even so, these characters have their own "truth" to them. It's one thing to make Kirk "cheat" on an exam as a cadet, it's quite another to turn him into a bigot. That's not James T. Kirk's character - literally, or figuratively. But the canon of STAR TREK 6, is very specific on the matter and states that he's only too capable, despite 2 movies before it that specify otherwise ... but whatever. Rub the TOS crew's nose in shit for their last movie together. I no longer care ...

I agree with this. I don't have a problem with making Starfleet explicitly military(Kirk calls himself a soldier in TOS, after all), but the overt and crude racism of so many of the senior crew out of nowhere in STVI was stupid and insulting to the audience. The "cold war" angle works just fine without the racism.

 

[Warped9]

Meyer-Bennett Trek. Yuch.

 

[2takesfrakes]

The motto of the Navy, who has more uniforms than all other branches combined, is "we fight wars - not people." I always felt that was StarFleet's motto, also. Except when Kirk got to fight hand-to-hand with somebody, the ships always just fired at eachother and that was the end of that. The similiarities to StarFleet and the navy were always there without Nicholas Meyer.

In fact, the uniforms he had Rob Fletcher design for STAR TREK II don't look wildly different from the pajamas seen in TOS. For example, the black bell bottoms and boots are still in vogue. The slightly raised under collar and the overshirt have been modified, but the theme is still there. The StarFleet symbol is certainly there, as is the use of gold, sparkle trim, here and there. It wasn't that shockingly different, after all. Unfortunately, the red did evoke Santa Clause to the uninitiated in the audience, more so than anything relating to Napoleon, whom nobody but historians really gives a shit about. And I do wonder what it might've seemed like, had they used the original colours from TOS and kept everything else the same with the redesign. Yes, I wonder ...

 

[Synnöve]

Meyer-Bennett Trek. Yuch.

Well, if you're going to make such elaborate slapdash comments such as that you'd better include Nimoy on that list given his high amount of create input during that era.

 

[J.T.B.]

In fact, the uniforms he had Rob Fletcher design for STAR TREK II don't look wildly different from the pajamas seen in TOS. For example, the black bell bottoms and boots are still in vogue. The slightly raised under collar and the overshirt have been modified, but the theme is still there. The StarFleet symbol is certainly there, as is the use of gold, sparkle trim, here and there. It wasn't that shockingly different, after all.

Seriously? They were almost totally different. The TOS duty uniform was simple: a solid color pullover shirt with contrasting collar, gold rank stripes (if any) on the lower sleeves and badge sewn on the chest, black pants and boots. The TWOK duty uniform was a double-breasted jacket with contrasting trim on the front and up the back seams, a strap on one shoulder, a wide belt with a prominent buckle, a metal rank pin on the shoulder strap, another on the opposite sleeve, a band around one cuff with some arrangement of pins on it, a more elaborate metal badge on the chest, and stripes on the trouser legs. The pullover shirt was just an undergarment. The boots were pretty much the same, though.

That was just for officers, though. The WOK era had to have a completely different jumpsuit style uniform for enlisted personnel, which for my money was probably the stupidest element of the whole thing.

 

[Warped9]

Meyer-Bennett Trek. Yuch.

Well, if you're going to make such elaborate slapdash comments such as that you'd better include Nimoy on that list given his high amount of create input during that era.

Done. TVH is my least favourite of the original cast films.