Next Titan novel announced

[BrotherBenny]

Sci, the Jenolan's shields were all but gone at that point so there may have been a hole that they could have beamed through, or the torpedoes were fired first and the computer beamed them out as soon as the shields collapsed.

Maybe Cardassian shields are better than Federation ones?

Dukat had Dominion technology in "Covenant", and from "The Search Part 2" we know that the Dominion have advanced distance beaming technology, so that's gone too. What's next?

 

[Christopher]

Sci, the Jenolan's shields were all but gone at that point so there may have been a hole that they could have beamed through, or the torpedoes were fired first and the computer beamed them out as soon as the shields collapsed.

Not to mention that the Jenolan's shield technology was 75 years less advanced than the Enterprise's transporter technology. I mean, it stands to reason that enemy powers would be constantly working to improve their transporter tech to penetrate each other's shields and improve their shielding tech to block each other's transporters, an ongoing arms race between attack and defense. So logically a shield system from the 2290s would be several generations behind the state of the art and could be easily penetrated by a transporter from 2369. Particularly considering that the Jenolan was a small transport vessel rather than a capital ship and thus wouldn't be expected to have top-of-the-line shields even by 2294 standards.

 

[Elias Vaughn]

Someone kicks someone they have a disagreement with in the balls then is bothered when the recipient has the audacity to strike back.

You mean like when the Borg attacked Earth and then is bothered when Janeway had the audacity to do what she felt necessary to stop that from happening again?

Or is this in reference to something else?

 

[BillJ]

Someone kicks someone they have a disagreement with in the balls then is bothered when the recipient has the audacity to strike back.

You mean like when the Borg attacked Earth and then is bothered when Janeway had the audacity to do what she felt necessary to stop that from happening again?

Or is this in reference to something else?

I would've thought the "someone they have a disagreement with" would've covered that part.

Janeway spoke for the entire Federation when she struck the Borg, no attempt was even made to contact Starfleet to make sure they could handle an invasion if it came to that. No attempt was made to even get Starfleet's approval on a strike of that magnitude.

So we have a Starfleet captain who summarily executed a massive amount of drones, changed the course of history for countless beings inside and outside the Federation (remember she erased sixteen years of Voyager's trip) and according to the books used a weapon with subspace properties (transphasic torpedos) which would seemingly violate the Khitomer Accords.

At the point she destroyed the hubs, she committed the Federation to a hot-war with the Borg.

She corrupted a seemingly peaceful future to save a single individual.

I'll sign-off of this topic with a line from Q, Who?...

Q set a series of events into motion, bringing contact with the Borg much sooner than it should have come. Now, perhaps when you're ready, it might be possible to establish a relationship with them.

EDIT: Doesn't the quote above espouse a common theme of Trek going all the way back to Errand of Mercy? No matter how different or implacable the foe, someday you will find a way to co-exist.

 

[JB2005]

The Borg Queen was monitoring Voyager from the moment Admiral Janeway had travelled back in time, so there's no doubt in my mind that there would have been a grab at the future technology, no matter what happened - if Voyager had taken the conduit back to Earth without destroying it, what's to stop the Borg from following?

If Voyager had destroyed the hub and continued through the DQ then the Borg would have gone after them for the future tech...

Really, destroying the hub was the only thing to do once Admiral Janeway had come back in time...

 

[elaithin]

At the point she destroyed the hubs, she committed the Federation to a hot-war with the Borg.

I'd say the Borg did that themselves, starting with Wolf 359.

 

[Christopher]

You can't have a "war" with the Borg any more than you can have a war with a hurricane or global warming. They're a force of nature, not a political entity. All you can do is try to survive them and mitigate the damage they cause.

 

[BillJ]

You can't have a "war" with the Borg any more than you can have a war with a hurricane or global warming. They're a force of nature, not a political entity. All you can do is try to survive them and mitigate the damage they cause.

Shouldn't be able to negotiate with a force of nature either, yet we've seen that exact thing happen in Voyager and Star Trek: First Contact.

 

[Sci]

Someone kicks someone they have a disagreement with in the balls then is bothered when the recipient has the audacity to strike back.

You mean like when the Borg attacked Earth and then is bothered when Janeway had the audacity to do what she felt necessary to stop that from happening again?

Or is this in reference to something else?

I would've thought the "someone they have a disagreement with" would've covered that part.

Which is a fundamentally dishonest phrase, since it avoids assigning responsibility for initiating hostilities, and describing the exact nature of hostilities. To wit: That the Borg had on multiple occasions attempted to commit genocide against the Federation and only barely been stopped, and was known to maintain a desire to commit genocide against the Federation.

So we have a Starfleet captain who summarily executed a massive amount of drones,

Unavoidable.

changed the course of history for countless beings inside and outside the Federation

Every starship captain that does any damn thing is changing the course of history.

(remember she erased sixteen years of Voyager's trip)

Those years were already erased by Future Janeway when she traveled back in time. From Actual Janeway's POV, she erased nothing, since those years never existed, and she was under no obligation to preserve any given potential future.

and according to the books used a weapon with subspace properties (transphasic torpedos) which would seemingly violate the Khitomer Accords.

We do not know the nature of the Second Khitomer Accords or what traits exactly characterize the weapons it bans. As such, you are making (once again) an assertion without evidence.

At the point she destroyed the hubs, she committed the Federation to a hot-war with the Borg.

Absolute bullshit. The Borg Collective committed the Federation to a hot-war with the Borg in 2366, when a Borg cube invaded Federation space and attempted to commit genocide against the Federation.

She corrupted a seemingly peaceful future

Complete and utter bullshit. The Federation was clearly still involved in hostilities against the Borg Collective, or else it wouldn't have required extensive study of the Collective at the Academy, or have developed advanced weaponry for use against them.

to save a single individual.

You keep conflating Future Janeway with Actual Janeway, which is absurd. Actual Janeway did not change the past and is not responsible for Future Janeway's choices.

I'll sign-off of this topic with a line from Q, Who?...

Q set a series of events into motion, bringing contact with the Borg much sooner than it should have come. Now, perhaps when you're ready, it might be possible to establish a relationship with them.

EDIT: Doesn't the quote above espouse a common theme of Trek going all the way back to Errand of Mercy? No matter how different or implacable the foe, someday you will find a way to co-exist.

Completely and utterly full of shit, because the Borg Collective is not an intelligence like any other. It is an intelligence that can only be negotiated with temporarily, when it finds itself under threat, and which will immediately betray any deals it makes once the threat has passed. The Borg Collective, frankly, from what we learn in DESTINY, is less a person or government than it is an irrational animal or mentally handicapped person, who obeys drives to consume and destroy without genuine reason or free will.

The Borg Collective cannot be negotiated with, cannot be peacefully co-existed with, cannot be trusted, ever. It will inevitably betray and seek to consume. Its fundamental goal is to commit genocide against all other forms of life; it can only be contained or destroyed.

 

[BillJ]

Those years were already erased by Future Janeway when she traveled back in time. From Actual Janeway's POV, she erased nothing, since those years never existed, and she was under no obligation to preserve any given potential future.

Memory Alpha seems to disagree with you...

Additionally, the Janeway of the 24th century violated the Directive by accepting the aid of her future self. Her future self took the following attitude regarding the Directive - "It's less of a headache if you just ignore it."

So does Janeway herself...

You know what? I shouldn't be listening to details about the future.

We do not know the nature of the Second Khitomer Accords or what traits exactly characterize the weapons it bans. As such, you are making (once again) an assertion without evidence.

Which is why I put the word "seemingly" in, unless someone knows the contents of the Khitomer Accords it's all up to interpretation. But it's safe to say any weapons using anti-matter would be banned, detonation of one in subspace (especially in sub-space) could be quite damaging.

The Borg Collective cannot be negotiated with, cannot be peacefully co-existed with, cannot be trusted, ever. It will inevitably betray and seek to consume. Its fundamental goal is to commit genocide against all other forms of life; it can only be contained or destroyed.

Many enemies cannot be trusted, sad but true. But Janeway scorched any possibility of them being able to co-exist in Endgame. Once again, to save a single person. I don't know about you Sci, but the thought of someone trying to save my life at the potential cost of millions more makes me ill. Nor could I save a someone I cared about at that cost.

As in all things, YMMV.

 

[Sci]

Those years were already erased by Future Janeway when she traveled back in time. From Actual Janeway's POV, she erased nothing, since those years never existed, and she was under no obligation to preserve any given potential future.

Memory Alpha seems to disagree with you...

Additionally, the Janeway of the 24th century violated the Directive by accepting the aid of her future self. Her future self took the following attitude regarding the Directive - "It's less of a headache if you just ignore it."

So does Janeway herself...

You know what? I shouldn't be listening to details about the future.

Which is evidence that the Temporal Prime Directive forbids interacting with or gaining information or technology from the future, not that the TPD views the present Federation as having any responsibility towards potential future timelines. There can be plenty of reasons not to allow starship captains from gaining intelligence from the future, up to and including a simple distrust that a non-temporal specialist would be able to use that information.

And, once again, it's pretty obvious that Future Janeway erased her subjective past, not Actual Janeway. Further, you keep conflating these two individuals.

We do not know the nature of the Second Khitomer Accords or what traits exactly characterize the weapons it bans. As such, you are making (once again) an assertion without evidence.

Which is why I put the word "seemingly" in,

In other words, you wanted to insinuate that Actual Janeway was guilty of a crime without being able to actually support that accusation.

unless someone knows the contents of the Khitomer Accords it's all up to interpretation. But it's safe to say any weapons using anti-matter would be banned, detonation of one in subspace (especially in sub-space) could be quite damaging.

By that logic, photon torpedoes would all be banned, since they are literally just antimatter missiles.

The Borg Collective cannot be negotiated with, cannot be peacefully co-existed with, cannot be trusted, ever. It will inevitably betray and seek to consume. Its fundamental goal is to commit genocide against all other forms of life; it can only be contained or destroyed.

Many enemies cannot be trusted, sad but true. But Janeway scorched any possibility of them being able to co-exist in Endgame.

Don't kid yourself -- there was never any possibility of the UFP and Borg Collective being able to peacefully co-exist, because the Borg Collective's goal was to assimilate or exterminate all lifeforms not under the Collective's control. Janeway didn't scorch any possibility of peaceful co-existence; there was no such possibility to scorch.

Once again, to save a single person.

There you go again, conflating Future Janeway with Actual Janeway.

 

[JB2005]

^ Pretty sure Guinan thought there was a chance that the Borg and Feds could peacefully co-exist, and since she had her world ravaged by Borg, she's hardly a naive peace-nik...

 

[Sci]

^ Pretty sure Guinan thought there was a chance that the Borg and Feds could peacefully co-exist, and since she had her world ravaged by Borg, she's hardly a naive peace-nik...

Being the victim of violence doesn't mean you can always clearly understand your attacker. Especially since, by her own account, she wasn't there when the El-Aurian homeworld was attacked. She was just wrong, that's all.

 

[JB2005]

Scorpion would seem to disagree...

 

[Sci]

^ Pretty sure Guinan thought there was a chance that the Borg and Feds could peacefully co-exist, and since she had her world ravaged by Borg, she's hardly a naive peace-nik...

Being the victim of violence doesn't mean you can always clearly understand your attacker. Especially since, by her own account, she wasn't there when the El-Aurian homeworld was attacked. She was just wrong, that's all.

Scorpion would seem to disagree...

"Scorpion?" The episode where the Borg Collective agreed to allow the U.S.S. Voyager safe passage through their space in return for the Voyager crew developing an effective weapon to drive off Species 8472--but then, after the Voyager crew lived up to their end of the deal, the Collective immediately betrayed them and attempted to assimilate them?

That one?

'Cos that one actually makes it pretty clear that the Borg Collective cannot be trusted and will immediately violate any agreement it makes if it is capable of doing so.

 

[JB2005]

Except it showed that the collective is capable of entering into an agreement, even if it would later renege on it, it was still able to recognise Janeway as a person capable of entering into an agreement with...remember what Q said, the Federation wasn't supposed to have encountered the Borg yet, nor were they supposed to be in the Delta Quadrant. The Federation was inferior in terms of technology...but if their First Contact had occured when the Federation was technologically superior to the Borg, who knows?

 

[Sci]

Except it showed that the collective is capable of entering into an agreement, even if it would later renege on it,

So what? They were negotiating in bad faith from the beginning. They didn't enter into an agreement, they pretended to enter into an agreement because they were under existential threat. Trying to negotiate with the Borg is like trying to negotiate with Hitler -- only less sensible, since at least Hitler had free will. The Borg Collective only ever obeys its hunger.

remember what Q said, the Federation wasn't supposed to have encountered the Borg yet, nor were they supposed to be in the Delta Quadrant. The Federation was inferior in terms of technology...but if their First Contact had occured when the Federation was technologically superior to the Borg, who knows?

Anyone who pays attention to Borg behavior: They would do everything they possibly could to try to exterminate or assimilate a technologically superior power, and would only pretend to abide by any agreements, or refrain from acting aggressively, when under existential threat.

I mean, hell, the Borg were literally threatening to try to assimilate the Q in Before Dishonor. They aren't a civilization capable of peaceful cooperation.

 

[Christopher]

What Sci said. The Borg in "Scorpion" didn't so much enter into an agreement with Voyager's crew so much as exploit them as a resource for as long as it was useful to do so.

 

[BillJ]

By that logic, photon torpedoes would all be banned, since they are literally just antimatter missiles.

Photon torpedoes operate in normal space, transphasic torpedoes do not. According to the books they move through sub-space in order to circumvent an enemies defenses. That's why I think they may fall under the subspace weapons ban. Maybe weapons moving through subspace aren't part of the ban, maybe the Khitomer Accords were no longer in effect by the time of Endgame. Who knows? All I know is that I simply interpret it differently than you do. Now if you can show me somewhere in canon where weapons that travel through subspace are exempt, I'm all ears.

What Sci said. The Borg in "Scorpion" didn't so much enter into an agreement with Voyager's crew so much as exploit them as a resource for as long as it was useful to do so.

Not to be glib, but human factions here on Earth have been known to break treaties when the terms no longer favor them. Honoring them for only as long as it was useful for them to do so.

Your ascribing a very human trait to your force of nature.

 

[JB2005]

Exactly, my point was that the Borg can't be a force of nature if they can negotiate (and if they can negotiate dishonestly, even moreso!)