Next Titan novel announced

[Sci]

I'm still waiting for someone to tell me how Janeway could reasonably have known that the anti-Borg weaponry from the future would prove unreliable, that the Collective would survive their attempt to disrupt it, and that the Borg would discover subspace tunnels leading straight to the Alpha Quadrant.

I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me how Janeway is right to alter a seemingly peaceful future to save a single individual?

That future had already been altered by Future Janeway, not by Actual Janeway. Further, Actual Janeway has no obligation to preserve someone else's potential future timeline; her only obligation is to preserve her own past and her own crew.

EDIT: If it was Kirk who made the same decision, people would be ragging on him for making a shallow, rash decision that showed no forethought on his part.

Not really. I'd fully expect Kirk to do the same thing, and I'd consider him right.

I'm still waiting for someone to tell me how Janeway could reasonably have known that the anti-Borg weaponry from the future would prove unreliable, that the Collective would survive their attempt to disrupt it, and that the Borg would discover subspace tunnels leading straight to the Alpha Quadrant.

Sci, watch 'Endgame'.

Janeway&co already knew during the episode that the borg would adapt to transphasics - they determined that, if the queen was not distracted, she would adapt to them even before the transwarp hub was destroyed.

If that's the case, then the alternate timeline Future Janeway came from was never one that could be relied upon and its technology not something that would ever actually protect the Federation. I see no virtue in waltzing by and letting the Borg keep their transwarp corridors when the future that choice would create would be no safer than one created by confronting the Borg in 2378.

The neurolitic technobabble was meant to distract the queen in order to destroy the transwarp hub - NOT destroy the entire collective; indeed, it performed far better than anticipated by Janeway&co.

I seem to remember it being there to disrupt the entire Collective; indeed, there was major speculation that the Borg had finally been defeated when "Endgame" aired.

The borg had 6 more transwarp hubs - as in, acces to transwarp technology.

Yes, and "Endgame" was very clear that the entire transwarp network had collapsed, rendering each hub useless.

It had reliable slipstream from Arturis' people - which should enable it to each the alpha/beta quadrants in a matter of months.

Actually, we don't know if the slipstream technology from Arturis's people was compatible with Borg technology and ship design.

 

[Edit_XYZ]

@Sci
As said, watch endgame.

And the borg assimilated ALL of Arturis' people knowledge, not just slipstream; it knew how to make ships that can handle slipstream - because Arturis' people knew.

 

[BillJ]

Further, Actual Janeway has no obligation to preserve someone else's potential future timeline; her only obligation is to preserve her own past and her own crew.

So if someone from the future gave technology to the past and those in the past used the technology to knowingly alter the time you inhabit, you'd have no problem with it?

Okay...

I think I'd have a problem with someone interfering with and possibly destroying my life for their own personal gratification.

 

[Christopher]

It's been awhile since I've seen "Hope And Fear", but I was of the understanding that Arturis' people fled and hid as opposed to holding off the Borg.

From the transcript:

ARTURIS: My people managed to elude the Borg for centuries, outwitting them, always one step ahead. But in recent years, the Borg began to weaken our defences. They were closing in and Species eight four seven two was our last hope to defeat them. You took that away from us! The outer colonies were the first to fall, twenty three in a matter of hours. Our sentry vessels tossed aside, no defence against the storm. By the time they surrounded our star system, hundreds of Cubes, we'd already surrendered to our own terror. A few of us managed to survive, ten, twenty thousand.

So Arturis's people weren't strong enough to match or defeat the Borg, just enough to survive dealing with them. But it was only a stopgap and their defenses eventually failed. All they did was delay assimilation/destruction.

It does bring to mind the question of why Arturis' people didn't slipstream themselves to the other side of the galaxy from the Borg, to give themselves some breathing room.

Maybe their slipstream technology didn't have a very long range. Since Arturis never actually intended to let Voyager's crew return to the Alpha Quadrant, maybe the drive wasn't actually capable of a journey of that magnitude.

Actually, we don't know if the slipstream technology from Arturis's people was compatible with Borg technology and ship design.

Indeed, I established in Greater Than the Sum that it wasn't.

 

[BillJ]

Actually, we don't know if the slipstream technology from Arturis's people was compatible with Borg technology and ship design.

Indeed, I established in Greater Than the Sum that it wasn't.

I have a hard time following that logic, since it seems technology in pretty much universally interchangeable any other time in the Star Trek universe.

 

[wahwahkits]

Not all the time, for example could a Starfleet vessel run on a Romulan singularity?

 

[Edit_XYZ]

Not all the time, for example could a Starfleet vessel run on a Romulan singularity?

I was not even talking about modifying borg ships for work with slipstream - of course, given the extremely versatile nature of borg tech (and the fact they already used transwarp, a related technology, as per 7 of 9), a statement like 'borg ships can't be modified to use slipstream' is rather unconvincing.

I was talking about building borg ships concieved with slipstream in the collective mind - ships that could most definitely handle slipstream.

The borg - with all the relevant knowledge and inexhaustible resources, for all intents and purposes - can't do this? Really?

Well, as it stands, the reason for this inability will forever remain a mystery - a inconsistency within canon - for the simple fact that any reason someone could come up with can be easily debunked.

 

[BrotherBenny]

They liked their cubes and spheres and probably couldn't get the required levels of power needed to make slipstream work with the size of their vessels. See also the rarity of benamite ore.

 

[Christopher]

^And it could be as I just suggested above, that Arturis's people's slipstream didn't have sufficient range to reach the UFP.

 

[Edit_XYZ]

They liked their cubes and spheres and probably couldn't get the required levels of power needed to make slipstream work with the size of their vessels. See also the rarity of benamite ore.

The borg used smaller vessels, too - and of shapes different from cube or sphere - shown on screen and in trek lit (in DS9 Mission Gamma 4, for example).

Rarity of benamite ore? For the borg? Highly unconvincing.

 

[Sci]

Further, Actual Janeway has no obligation to preserve someone else's potential future timeline; her only obligation is to preserve her own past and her own crew.

So if someone from the future gave technology to the past and those in the past used the technology to knowingly alter the time you inhabit, you'd have no problem with it?

Of course I'd have a problem with it. It's my past they're altering. But I wouldn't regard those people from the past as having any obligation to me or my present; from their POV, I'm just one potential future timeline, and one which has already been altered by whoever it was that went into the past.

In other words: The only obligation anyone has is to protect their own subjective past, not some future person's subjective past. Especially since, from anyone's POV, any future they encounter is by definition only one potential future timeline, not a guaranteed destined timeline.

In other words: The only thing that goes is whatever the traffic can bear. There's no higher morality in the world of time travel.

ETA:

Actually, we don't know if the slipstream technology from Arturis's people was compatible with Borg technology and ship design.

Indeed, I established in Greater Than the Sum that it wasn't.

I have a hard time following that logic, since it seems technology in pretty much universally interchangeable any other time in the Star Trek universe.

So when a work of Trek literature deviates from a piece of stupid bullshit that's not even an established rule -- and the idea that all technology is mutually interchangeable and compatible is ridiculous bullshit -- then the more PLAUSIBLE scenario is the one that should be thrown out?

Ridiculous.

* * *

I am still waiting for someone to explain to me how Janeway could reasonably have known that the future technology (which was apparently reliable in that timeline) would fail, that the Collective would survive, and that the Borg would come across subspace tunnels leading to the Alpha Quadrant.

 

[SicOne]

It's been awhile since I've seen "Hope And Fear", but I was of the understanding that Arturis' people fled and hid as opposed to holding off the Borg.

From the transcript:

ARTURIS: My people managed to elude the Borg for centuries, outwitting them, always one step ahead. But in recent years, the Borg began to weaken our defences. They were closing in and Species eight four seven two was our last hope to defeat them. You took that away from us! The outer colonies were the first to fall, twenty three in a matter of hours. Our sentry vessels tossed aside, no defence against the storm. By the time they surrounded our star system, hundreds of Cubes, we'd already surrendered to our own terror. A few of us managed to survive, ten, twenty thousand.

So Arturis's people weren't strong enough to match or defeat the Borg, just enough to survive dealing with them. But it was only a stopgap and their defenses eventually failed. All they did was delay assimilation/destruction.

It does bring to mind the question of why Arturis' people didn't slipstream themselves to the other side of the galaxy from the Borg, to give themselves some breathing room.

Maybe their slipstream technology didn't have a very long range. Since Arturis never actually intended to let Voyager's crew return to the Alpha Quadrant, maybe the drive wasn't actually capable of a journey of that magnitude.

Good points, Christopher, thank you.

It's been a few months since I read it, but aren't there a few lines from Watching The Clock where the timecops (you know who I mean), tell the DTI guys that had Future Janeway NOT performed the events of "Endgame", the Borg would have overtaken the galaxy by 2400? If so, that brings to mind three questions...

(1) Isn't Future Janeway from the early 2400s?

(2) What was the outcome of the Destiny events in the timecops' timeline? Or did those events even occur?

(3) Are the timecops from the Future Janeway timeline?

I could probably sit down and re-read WTC for this, but I'm a few books behind in other reading and since this topic is under heavy discussion here, I figure there are some folks here who can set me straight.

 

[Edit_XYZ]

^And it could be as I just suggested above, that Arturis's people's slipstream didn't have sufficient range to reach the UFP.

And what would limit the range?

One has to exit slipstream after a while? Well, one can start a new slipstream session.

A techno-gizmo burns out after a while? Easy enough to replace.

As said - every explanation that's not implausible aka requiring a really LARGE suspension of disbelief can be easily debunked.

 

[BillJ]

So when a work of Trek literature deviates from a piece of stupid bullshit that's not even an established rule -- and the idea that all technology is mutually interchangeable and compatible is ridiculous bullshit -- then the more PLAUSIBLE scenario is the one that should be thrown out?

Ridiculous.

* * *

If you're writing a Star Trek novel you should be writing a Star Trek novel... bullshit and all. Or what's the point of writing a Star Trek novel to begin with?

To throw such a random technological road block in front of the Borg of all races seemed silly. They can throw as many resources as needed to solve pretty much any problem, that's the power of the collective to begin with. They can put tens or hundreds of thousands of drones on any given problem until it is solved. In this case, they're not even starting from scratch... all they have to do is modify an existing technology for their use.

I am still waiting for someone to explain to me how Janeway could reasonably have known that the future technology (which was apparently reliable in that timeline) would fail, that the Collective would survive, and that the Borg would come across subspace tunnels leading to the Alpha Quadrant.

You're a smart guy Sci. Did you not think even when watching Endgame, that striking such a massive blow to the Borg wouldn't grab their attention? That it wouldn't redouble their efforts to strike out at the Federation? That the tech used against them, something that they'd never seen before, wouldn't pique their curiosity? That with unlimited manpower they could rebuild those hubs very quickly? If you could see those possible scenarios and I can see them... why couldn't Janeway?

She saw what the future held twenty-five years out for the Federation and gambled that all away to save a single individual.

Regardless of who made the decision, it was selfish and short-sighted. YMMV.

 

[Christopher]

Spoilers for Watching the Clock:

It's been a few months since I read it, but aren't there a few lines from Watching The Clock where the timecops (you know who I mean), tell the DTI guys that had Future Janeway NOT performed the events of "Endgame", the Borg would have overtaken the galaxy by 2400?

No, "by 2600 at the latest."

(2) What was the outcome of the Destiny events in the timecops' timeline? Or did those events even occur?

(3) Are the timecops from the Future Janeway timeline?

If you're referring to temporal agents such as Jena Noi and Ducane, they're from the future that grows out of Destiny. That's the whole reason they allowed Admiral Janeway's gross temporal violation in "Endgame" to happen at all: because it was a vital part of their own history. The destruction of the Borg's transwarp corridor in "Endgame" led to Destiny and the Borg's removal from the galaxy, thereby ensuring the future survival of the galaxy's inhabitants.

 

[DrCorby]

To be more concise - who said there was an alternate, perfect solution?

Exactly. So until you can come up with one, how else was Janeway supposed to act when you claim she "betrayed her oath as a starfleet officer - she condemned 60+ BILLIONS to death, people she was sworn to protect"?

There was no perfect solution.
Someone had to die. But Janeway could choose who dies.
There were two options, both fairly predictable:

1 Destroy the transwarp hub and save 7 of 9/unknown civilizations - bringing the collective's wrath on the federation (see the 60 billion dead in 'destiny').
2 Don't destroy the transwarp hub, the federation remaining a low priority for the borg - meaning the borg would continue with their initial plan and the billions of dead (and assimilated, in this case) would belong to other civilizations.

I don't agree with the way you've framed the choices. It's pretty obvious from the first time the Borg were encountered that they were coming for everyone in the galaxy, the Federation included. Q made it clear that the Borg were tireless in their advance. So whether at the time of Endgame, or 25 years in the future, the Borg were coming for the Federation. The future wasn't some peaceful, Borg-free panacea.

Janeway's destruction of the transwarp hub is analogous to the age-old tactic of destrying a bridge over a river in the face of an enemy's advance. You know the enemy can eventually rebuild the bridge (or find some other way across the river), but you've delayed their advance and attack. This reprieve may just buy you some breathing space, or it may buy you enough time to gain a new advantage, through additional troops, or new weapons, or just the discouragement of the enemy. Janeway could reasonably expect the hub's destruction would give the Federation a similar reprieve, whether for years or decades was unknowable. And she was bringing home new weapons from the future, to aid in the defense. So it was reasonable to expect she'd brought an advantage.

Yes, the Borg wouldn't be happy about the hub's destruction. But really, the Borg weren't going to be satisfied until every sentient in the galaxy -- nay, the universe -- and possibly other planes of existence -- had been assimilated. The Federation was always on their radar, since discovering the Feds. It was only a matter of time. And Janeway thought she could buy the Federation some extra time. Not a perfect solution. But the best she could do with the options presented to her at that moment.

 

[Christopher]

And it wasn't just the Federation. Janeway was crippling a major percentage of the Borg's transwarp network, if not the entire thing (and the books have assumed the latter). So that should have seriously impeded the Borg's ability to do harm galaxywide, and given that reprieve to countless civilizations.

 

[Sci]

So when a work of Trek literature deviates from a piece of stupid bullshit that's not even an established rule -- and the idea that all technology is mutually interchangeable and compatible is ridiculous bullshit -- then the more PLAUSIBLE scenario is the one that should be thrown out?

Ridiculous.

If you're writing a Star Trek novel you should be writing a Star Trek novel... bullshit and all. Or what's the point of writing a Star Trek novel to begin with?

Oh, hogwash, there's no established rule of STAR TREK-itude that says that every piece of bullshit has to be followed in a novel, and the idea that all technology is mutually interchangeable is not an established rule of the Trekverse. There's no reason for the novels to follow a bullshit assumption made up by fans.

To throw such a random technological road block in front of the Borg of all races seemed silly.

Actually, it's far MORE plausible for the Borg than it is for, say, the Federation; numerous episodes have established that the Borg don't think creatively, don't innovate. Whereas the Federation is, of course, famous for its technological innovation -- making its failure to incorporate advanced alien technologies into its systems far more implausible.

I am still waiting for someone to explain to me how Janeway could reasonably have known that the future technology (which was apparently reliable in that timeline) would fail, that the Collective would survive, and that the Borg would come across subspace tunnels leading to the Alpha Quadrant.

You're a smart guy Sci. Did you not think even when watching Endgame, that striking such a massive blow to the Borg wouldn't grab their attention? That it wouldn't redouble their efforts to strike out at the Federation?

You're speaking with the benefit of hindsight. Answer my question and stop trying to reframe the narrative.

Janeway's destruction of the transwarp hub is analogous to the age-old tactic of destrying a bridge over a river in the face of an enemy's advance. You know the enemy can eventually rebuild the bridge (or find some other way across the river), but you've delayed their advance and attack. This reprieve may just buy you some breathing space, or it may buy you enough time to gain a new advantage, through additional troops, or new weapons, or just the discouragement of the enemy. Janeway could reasonably expect the hub's destruction would give the Federation a similar reprieve, whether for years or decades was unknowable. And she was bringing home new weapons from the future, to aid in the defense. So it was reasonable to expect she'd brought an advantage.

Yes, the Borg wouldn't be happy about the hub's destruction. But really, the Borg weren't going to be satisfied until every sentient in the galaxy -- nay, the universe -- and possibly other planes of existence -- had been assimilated. The Federation was always on their radar, since discovering the Feds. It was only a matter of time. And Janeway thought she could buy the Federation some extra time. Not a perfect solution. But the best she could do with the options presented to her at that moment.

And it wasn't just the Federation. Janeway was crippling a major percentage of the Borg's transwarp network, if not the entire thing (and the books have assumed the latter). So that should have seriously impeded the Borg's ability to do harm galaxywide, and given that reprieve to countless civilizations.

Exactly!

Yes, it's tragic that the Collective decided to kill 60 billion people, but the Federation and Janeway are not responsible for that. Saying they are is just like blaming the victim of a rape for wearing a revealing dress. And meanwhile, the Federation is responsible for saving the lives of every single person who escaped assimilation because of the transwarp network's collapse and, later, along with the Caeliar, because of the Collective being dissolved.

 

[BillJ]

There's no reason for the novels to follow a bullshit assumption made up by fans.

Have you even watched the TV shows? Because time and again we see them convert one type of tech for use with other races tech and vice-versa.

Sorry you haven't been paying attention.

Saying they are is just like blaming the victim of a rape for wearing a revealing dress.

This is insulting and nothing like what took place on screen.

The Federation, via Janeway, took a big-league swing at the Borg.

Someone kicks someone they have a disagreement with in the balls then is bothered when the recipient has the audacity to strike back. Not to mention the fact no one mentions the tens to hundreds of thousands of drones Janeway summarily executed to save a single individual. Yet everyone is appalled when Picard contemplated using a virus to destroy the Borg in an effort to save TRILLIONS.

Talk about selective morality.

Plus, Janeway doesn't even know what's going on with the Borg in the future, Species 8472 could have them on the ropes for all she knows. But she does have concrete proof that if she continues to follow her current course and have Voyager arrive home when it was suppose to, that future is relatively free from the Borg.

 

[Sci]

There's no reason for the novels to follow a bullshit assumption made up by fans.

Have you even watched the TV shows?

Yes. And time and again, the technology works or does not work as the plot demands it. Which is why the Enterprise could beam through the Jenolan's shields in "Relic," but the Defiant couldn't through the Cardassian ship's shields in "The Way of the Warrior." Or why Dukat could beam Kira off the station in "Covenant," but no one could ever make long-distance beaming work again in the Trekverse until ST09.

So, no, the novels aren't under any obligation to operate according to your assumption of how compatible any given set of technology ought to be.

Saying they are is just like blaming the victim of a rape for wearing a revealing dress.

This is insulting and nothing like what took place on screen.

The Federation, via Janeway, took a big-league swing at the Borg.

After the Borg had already demonstrated its desire, willingness, and ability to destroy the Federation on numerous occasions. The Federation and Borg Collective existed in a de facto state of permanent war that the Collective had started. Let's not pretend the Federation was the aggressor here.

Someone kicks someone they have a disagreement with in the balls then is bothered when the recipient has the audacity to strike back.

Uh, no. A better analogy would be, "Winifred, commonly known as Freddie, is walking down the street one day, trying to get home, when she sees a man named Bob who had twice before invaded Freddie's home and tried to rape her. Freddie, knowing that Bob still wanted to rape her and that there is no government to report Bob to, decides that the smarter thing to do is to take an axe and chop of Bob's legs, since she knows Bob still wants to rape her and will chase her home. Freddie tries to chop off Bob's legs and runs home. Bob, unfortunately, grows another pair of legs, and then follows Fred home and decides to try to kill her. Fortunately, Bob is thwarted by Freddie's new neighbor, Callie."

Not to mention the fact no one mentions the tens to hundreds of thousands of drones Janeway summarily executed to save a single individual. Yet everyone is appalled when Picard contemplated using a virus to destroy the Borg in an effort to save TRILLIONS.

I'm not, in part because I'm not convinced that destroying the Collective with a computer virus would have inevitably resulted in the deaths of all of those drones. But that's a separate debate.

Plus, Janeway doesn't even know what's going on with the Borg in the future, Species 8472 could have them on the ropes for all she knows.

Now you're moving the goal posts. Either you are claiming that Janeway knows what will happen with the Borg in the future (and is therefore responsible for provoking a Collective that would have otherwise not threatened the Federation), or you are claiming she does not know what's happening with the Future Borg. Make up your mind.

But she does have concrete proof that if she continues to follow her current course and have Voyager arrive home when it was suppose to,

"Supposed to?" Who is doing this supposing?

that future is relatively free from the Borg.

Hold on. If she knows that future is relatively free from the Borg because of the future tech, then it logically follows that there's nothing wrong with using that Borg tech early.

If it's NOT the Borg tech that's protecting the Federation, then that means that NOTHING is actually protecting the Federation. The Federation is just one more meal the Borg haven't gotten around to yet.