Next Titan novel announced

[Edit_XYZ]

At the beginning of 'Endgame', the borg had exceptionally little interest in the federation/humans:
The borg actually didn't bother assimilating a starfleet ship full of humans! An easy target, too - a single ship, surrounded by dozens of borg cubes.

"Dark Frontier" established that the Queen deliberately left Voyager unassimilated because she had intended to use Seven of Nine as a sleeper agent to study the humans/Federation and learn how to overcome their unusual ability to resist assimilation. Don't forget that the Borg had already tried to assimilate the Federation twice at that point, first in "The Best of Both Worlds," then in "First Contact." The Borg were quite obviously interested in the Federation long before "Endgame."

But the Federation was just one of the many civilizations galaxy-wide that the Borg was battling. We may not have seen them onscreen, but given the sheer immensity of the galaxy and the substantial percentage of it occupied by the Borg, it's inevitable that the UFP was just one of many priorities the Borg had, and since it was very far away from the core of Borg space -- aside from Voyager, which was just one measly ship -- the Collective could afford to keep it fairly low on its priority list while it dealt with more pressing concerns. But "Endgame" pushed the Federation to the top of their priority list.

I agree with this assessment.
One thing - being low on the borg's priority list is a good thing, when you're practically defenceless against even a relatively small scale borg attack.

Janeway's actions caused this massive shift in the borg's priorities.
Irresponsibly, she poked a sleeping giant in the eye.

"Sleeping?" Not even close. The Borg were waging an active, aggressive campaign of genocide across the entire galaxy. They weren't "sleeping" any more than the Nazis were sleeping in the late 1930s when they swept across Europe. What Janeway did was analogous to what many Americans wanted to do -- take direct action against a global-scale threat rather than just passively sitting by because it hadn't directly focused on them yet. And those people who wanted to intervene turned out to be right. It was irresponsible to sit by and allow the Nazis and the Japanese to build rapacious empires at others' expense. The right thing to do in the long run was to take action to stop them. True, those nations that fought the Nazis and Japanese suffered great losses by choosing to stand against them, but the losses to the whole world would've been far more profound if they hadn't.

The comparison is not accurate on one point:

Janeway is not the equivalent of an United States citizen - a nation which had the means to match nazi Germany's power.

As said in my previous post, Janeway is the equivalent of a member of a primitive amazonian tribe, armed with bows and spears. Such a tribe - even allied with other similar tribes - taking action against nazi Germany would only ever result in its extinction.
No chance of victory or survival whatsoever - as 'Destiny' showed.

 

[Christopher]

Well.... the alternative...

Spoiler: Watching the Clock

According to Star Trek: Department of Temporal Investigations: Watching the Clock, if it weren't for the events of "Endgame"/Destiny, the Borg would have assimilated the entire galaxy within a few hundred years (and have done so in all the timelines where those events didn't take place)

Which I don't buy. There had to ave been an original timeline, unmolested by the Borg, for the 29th Century timecops to exist in the first place.

But since time isn't really linear, only our perception of it, cause-and-effect are meaningless.

The laws of physics do allow for a self-causing time loop. In fact, in real physics it would be pretty much mandatory that anyone going back in time would contribute to creating their own past rather than "altering" it. It's the fictional conceit of time travellers creating different timelines that's the implausible part.

And quantum-mechanically speaking, all times and timelines are defined within the wave equation of the universe. There is no "original" history replaced by a later iteration; there are just various processes of causation coexisting within the manifold, and our perception of some events coming "before" other events is simply that, a perception arising from the particular way in which we interact with the rest of the universe.

 

[Christopher]

One thing - being low on the borg's priority list is a good thing, when you're practically defenceless against even a relatively small scale borg attack.

But standing by and allowing others to suffer is not a good thing, and it's not the Federation way. And it's illogical to call Starfleet "practically defenseless" when it's one of the few powers in the galaxy that was able to take any meaningful action against the Borg at all, and did so on a recurring basis. Starfleet had a virtually unprecedented ability to impede the Borg's ability to harm others, and it would've been irresponsible and cowardly for them not to use it.

The comparison is not accurate on one point:

Janeway is not the equivalent of an United States citizen - a nation which had the means to match nazi Germany's power.

No analogy is meant to be exact in every particular. Don't split hairs.

As said in my previous post, Janeway is the equivalent of a member of a primitive amazonian tribe, armed with bows and spears. Such a tribe - even allied with other similar tribes - taking action against nazi Germany would only ever result in its extinction.
No chance of victory or survival whatsoever - as 'Destiny' showed.

You have a strangely self-centered view here which is completely alien to the Starfleet ethos. Saving other people constitutes victory, even if you lose your own life in the process. That's called heroism. It's nothing to dismiss or condemn. One person doesn't have the power to stand against a massive fire, but if that person rushes into a burning building, helps other people get to safety, and then dies in the fire, would you condemn that person as an irresponsible fool? If so, you'd better not do so in earshot of all the people praising that person as a hero.

 

[Edit_XYZ]

And it's illogical to call Starfleet "practically defenseless" when it's one of the few powers in the galaxy that was able to take any meaningful action against the Borg at all, and did so on a recurring basis.

In 'Scorpion', the borg was established as having MILLIONS of cubes.
7000+ cubes from 'Destiny' were a very small force by borg standards.

So - it is entirely logial to call starfleet a bug to be squashed by comparison to the borg, defenceless even against a smallish borg attack - again, as 'Destiny' redundantly proved.

Starfleet's recurring 'successes' were utterly small-scale when compared to the size of the borg collective.
Indeed, tv and literature presented numerous civilizations far more successful at defeating the borg.

No analogy is meant to be exact in every particular. Don't split hairs.

The particular analogy you presented is spectacularly inexact - so inexact, it becomes a straw-man.
As for 'not splitting hairs' - this is more appropriately addressed to you.

Saving other people constitutes victory, even if you lose your own life in the process. That's called heroism.

In other words, federation values - and hubris - are what caused the borg invasion - which is what I said in the first place.

Also - Janeway, as a starfleet officer, had a duty primarily toward federation citizens. She betrayed that oath by essentially sacrificing them - the entire federation - to save others ('save' as in merely delay the assimilation of others).

One person doesn't have the power to stand against a massive fire, but if that person rushes into a burning building, helps other people get to safety, and then dies in the fire, would you condemn that person as an irresponsible fool?

Unlike a fireman, Janeway did not place only herself in danger in order to save someone from a burning building - she placed in inescapable danger all her extended family, social circle, town and country.

When your only choices are 'save people you are sworn to protect' and 'save others' and you choose 'others', you betray your oath.
Janeway betrayed her oath as a starfleet officer - she condemned 60+ BILLIONS to death, people she was sworn to protect.
No matter how you try to spin it, you can't change this simple fact, Christopher.

You have a strangely self-centered view here which is completely alien to the Starfleet ethos.

If the choice is between saving the lives of my family or the lives of complete stangers, I will always choose to save the lives of my family.
And I would never trust a person who sacrificed his own family in order to save strangers. I could never trust this person not to put a bullet through my head in order to prevent me from doing whatever doesn't sit right with him - like stepping on an ant, or saying something not politically correct, for example.
Such a person is merely a fanatic - only he worships some set of rules that superficially look like morals.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Janeway betrayed her oath as a starfleet officer - she condemned 60+ BILLIONS to death, people she was sworn to protect.

So, the alternate solution would be...?

 

[Edit_XYZ]

Janeway betrayed her oath as a starfleet officer - she condemned 60+ BILLIONS to death, people she was sworn to protect.

So, the alternate solution would be...?

As already said:
"Was the borg destroying countless civilizations by the time of 'Endgame'? Yes.

But, if you're as pathetically weak as the federation proved to be in 'Destiny', you don't have what it takes to play on their level; your moralising speeches are empty rhetoric and your tactical half measures earn you extinction.
You may not like what happens, but, frankly, you have no choice in the matter; it's like an amazonian primitive tribe attacking nazi Germany, alone, during WW2 - and expecting NOT to be exterminated with barely an effort on Germany's part.

Janeway - much like the rest of the federation (on other occasions) - displayed the sin of hubris, recklessly gambled with the lives of BILLIONS - people whom she was sworn to protect - and lost. Luck never lasts forever - and the federation's luck ran out."

To be more concise - who said there was an alternate, perfect solution?

 

[Sci]

Janeway - much like the rest of the federation (on other occasions) - displayed the sin of hubris, recklessly gambled with the lives of BILLIONS - people whom she was sworn to protect - and lost. Luck never lasts forever - and the federation's luck ran out."

Not to rain on the "the Federation sucks and is responsible for every bad thing ever" parade that seems to be all the rage in the Trek Lit Forum these days, but:

Given that Janeway had access to technology from an alternate future that seemed to have proven reliable in thwarting the Borg, and given that so far as anyone knew, destroying the Borg transwarp network would cripple their ability to reach the Federation, and given that so far as anyone could tell, the neurolytic virus they were releasing really would disrupt the entire Collective consciousness itself, thus destroying the Borg forever...

... how, exactly, was Janeway supposed to know that the future technology would prove unreliable, that the Collective would survive what should have been a successful attempt to destroy it, and that they would find a collection of undiscovered wormholes leading straight to the Alpha Quadrant?

 

[Christopher]

So - it is entirely logial to call starfleet a bug to be squashed by comparison to the borg, defenceless even against a smallish borg attack - again, as 'Destiny' redundantly proved.

It may be logical to be a coward and do nothing to stand against an overwhelming force, but that doesn't mean it's admirable. It's not as if this is the only work of fiction about taking a stand against something monumentally more powerful than oneself.

Indeed, tv and literature presented numerous civilizations far more successful at defeating the borg.

The only ones I can think of are Species 8472 and the Caeliar.

In other words, federation values - and hubris - are what caused the borg invasion - which is what I said in the first place.

Not just other words, but words completely unrelated to what I was saying. I categorically reject this interpretation. But you're not even listening. I'll never understand people who think that the way to engage in debate is to restate the same unquestioned assumptions over and over and reject everything else out of hand. That's not dialogue, it's just talking at people.

Janeway betrayed her oath as a starfleet officer - she condemned 60+ BILLIONS to death, people she was sworn to protect.
No matter how you try to spin it, you can't change this simple fact, Christopher.

It's not even remotely close to a fact. It's a gross distortion of the facts. You're blaming the victim, and that's an obscenity. It was THE BORG who condemned those people to death. It's beyond ludicrous to blame anyone else for their choice to do harm. And I'm not wasting my time listening to such nonsense anymore. I'm done.

 

[captcalhoun]

so, how about City? anyone reckon they're going to beat United to the title this year?

 

[Edit_XYZ]

Indeed, tv and literature presented numerous civilizations far more successful at defeating the borg.

The only ones I can think of are Species 8472 and the Caeliar.

And the children of the storm, and the gregari, and Arturis's people from 'Hope and fear', etc.

But you're not even listening. I'll never understand people who think that the way to engage in debate is to restate the same unquestioned assumptions over and over and reject everything else out of hand. That's not dialogue, it's just talking at people.

Ironic - considering that's what you did for the last posts and what you seem to be routinely doing in this forum - for example, here:
http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=148572&page=4

I categorically reject this interpretation.

Of course you do. Given your way of thinking - as displayed -, you will stick to your opinion no matter what argumets/evidence were presented against it.
You'll just recourse to straw-men and ad personam attacks.

Considering your dogmatic mind-set, it's a minor miracle I'm not already on your ignore list, given the fact I actually dared to challenge your beliefs.

 

[Julio Angel Ortiz]

Soooooo... in an attempt to drag this thread (screaming and kicking) back on topic...

Excited there's going to be another Titan book, but cautiously optimistic that Michael A. Martin is writing it, given Seize the Fire was fairly weak. But the premise sounds intriguing, and more Titan is never a bad thing.

 

[DimesDan]

so, how about City? anyone reckon they're going to beat United to the title this year?

I have no idea, but that question has as much relevance as the topic at hand for the overall subject, you know, the next Titan novel, NOT the fucking Borg.

As for the overall topic. Given my opinion of Martins previous novels, either solo or with his now separated writing partner, I'm gonna pass. I've wasted enough money on the shite they've written and have no intention of paying for novels written by either of them.

 

[JD]

If the choice is between saving the lives of my family or the lives of complete stangers, I will always choose to save the lives of my family.
And I would never trust a person who sacrificed his own family in order to save strangers. I could never trust this person not to put a bullet through my head in order to prevent me from doing whatever doesn't sit right with him - like stepping on an ant, or saying something not politically correct, for example.
Such a person is merely a fanatic - only he worships some set of rules that superficially look like morals.

Ok, first off there is no way Janeway could know what was gonna happen, and we're not talking about just a couple hundred people here, we're talking about a threat to the ENTIRE GALAXY. I'm not saying that what happened in Destiny was a good thing, or that it should have happened, because it shouldn't have and it wasn't. But it did bring an end to a threat to every single being in the galaxy, and while that doesn't make the sacrifice of 60,000,000,000 worthwhile, it does go a long way towards helping.
Oh, and now back on topic. I haven't read any of Michael A. Martin's solo yet, but judging by the reactions around here, I'm definitely not as excited for this as I would be if someone else was writing the book.

 

[BillJ]

It's not even remotely close to a fact. It's a gross distortion of the facts. You're blaming the victim, and that's an obscenity. It was THE BORG who condemned those people to death. It's beyond ludicrous to blame anyone else for their choice to do harm. And I'm not wasting my time listening to such nonsense anymore. I'm done.

The victim mentality at work. When something bad happens, no matter what I may have done to initiate those events, it's always someone else fault.

Let's be quite honest here, Janeway and futureJaneway teamed up to kick a hornets nest to save ONE PERSON.

Nothing that we see in Endgame suggests that the Borg any longer represent a major threat. I point to this line from the episode:

JANEWAY: For the sake of argument, let's say I believe everything you're telling me. The future you come from sounds pretty good. Voyager's home, I'm an Admiral, there are ways to defend against the Borg. My ready room even gets preserved for posterity.

This doesn't mean the 'run-of-the-mill' Borg from 2378, they are talking about Borg from the early 25th century. Yet in destroying the transwarp hub, Janeway took and destroyed a future where the Borg weren't a threat and brought their attention squarely on the Federation.

Did anyone honestly think that when Voyager popped up with tech that could crack a cube like a walnut that it wouldn't get the Borg's attention?

Janeway is directly responsible for what happens to the Federation in Destiny, anyone who can't see that is simply deluding themselves.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

...there are ways to defend against the Borg....This doesn't mean the 'run-of-the-mill' Borg from 2378, they are talking about Borg from the early 25th century. Yet in destroying the transwarp hub, Janeway took and destroyed a future where the Borg weren't a threat....

Well, maybe you interpret it differently, but I don't see how having "ways to defend against the Borg" implies that the Borg aren't a threat, or are now toothless. They haven't passed from being a danger. It simply means the Federation has developed at least reasonably effective strategies to fending off whatever Borg incursions it's had up until that point - which probably means the occasional cube probing their defences, I'd speculate. Those incursions we've seen previously - 2367, 2371 - were single vessels. I imagine the Borg would continue that approach until they'd assimilated all the way up to the Federation's front door. Then they'd attack in force. The Starfleet of Janeway's future may have had systems and techniques in place to counter occasional Borg attacks (at least for the moment - who knows when the Borg elsewhere in the galaxy will assimilate a new technology or adapt on another battlefront a quadrant away, giving the Collective a boost?) but that won't mean they have anything good enough to stave off the Collective's might. And as Watching the Clock made note of, the more time the Borg have and the more of the galaxy they assimilate, the harder it would be to stop them down the line.

Again, maybe you interpret it differently, but for me the nature of the Borg means that Future Janeway's Federation wasn't free from the spectre of the Collective just because they currently had a few tricks up their sleeve, not by a long shot.

To be honest, I'd say the only galaxy in which the Borg "no longer pose a major threat" is a galaxy without Borg in it...or a galaxy in which other civilizations have the power, means and desire to easily eliminate the Borg, which is basically the same thing.

 

[David cgc]

Nothing that we see in Endgame suggests that the Borg any longer represent a major threat. I point to this line from the episode:

JANEWAY: For the sake of argument, let's say I believe everything you're telling me. The future you come from sounds pretty good. Voyager's home, I'm an Admiral, there are ways to defend against the Borg. My ready room even gets preserved for posterity.

This doesn't mean the 'run-of-the-mill' Borg from 2378, they are talking about Borg from the early 25th century. Yet in destroying the transwarp hub, Janeway took and destroyed a future where the Borg weren't a threat and brought their attention squarely on the Federation.

And yet, the run-of-the-mill Borg from 2381 handily defeated Starfleet even when they were armed with those fancy transphasic torpedos and computer viruses.

There's a contradiction in this argument. Either the Borg were so far out of the Federation's league that Starfleet could never hope to stop them in the end, in which case the deaths of only 60 billion people is actually a win compared to the certain and inevitable assimilation of the entire galaxy, or the Borg could realistically be defeated or subdued by the Federation, in which case Janeway wasn't willfully bringing on the certain destruction of the Federation by attacking the Borg (as she was wont to do).

 

[BillJ]

And yet, the run-of-the-mill Borg from 2381 handily defeated Starfleet even when they were armed with those fancy transphasic torpedos and computer viruses.

That was a choice made by the novel writers', more than likely to ramp back up the Borg threat. But it really does fly in the face of what we see in Endgame.

 

[F. King Daniel]

And yet, the run-of-the-mill Borg from 2381 handily defeated Starfleet even when they were armed with those fancy transphasic torpedos and computer viruses.

That was a choice made by the novel writers', more than likely to ramp back up the Borg threat. But it really does fly in the face of what we see in Endgame.

Well, if you're disregarding the novels then "Endgame" had no consequences and this discussion's pointless.

 

[DGCatAniSiri]

Soooooo... in an attempt to drag this thread (screaming and kicking) back on topic...

Excited there's going to be another Titan book, but cautiously optimistic that Michael A. Martin is writing it, given Seize the Fire was fairly weak. But the premise sounds intriguing, and more Titan is never a bad thing.

I'm cautiously optimistic right now. Particularly since Pava's going to be a part of the tale, and she was always one of my favorites back in the Starfleet Academy line, so I'm glad to see her getting a greater role. I kinda hope that some hints about the rest of Omega Squad get dropped too. I miss those characters.

As for Martin's solo work... Honestly, I didn't think Seize the Fire was that bad, though it hasn't stood out for me that well either. I wasn't too hooked on Raptor's Wings, but then, it was also an Enterprise novel, and Enterprise wasn't my favorite Trek series either, so I'm willing to pass that off as the cause, rather than his writing.

 

[BillJ]

Well, if you're disregarding the novels then "Endgame" had no consequences and this discussion's pointless.

Saying that it flys in the face of an episode doesn't mean that I'm disregarding the novels. No where did I say that.