New Treknology Into Darkness

[Timo]

Regarding the cryopods, they seem to present us with a choice.

* Are they the original pods from the Botany Bay? If so, this is a solid bit of technology retconning (possibly the first in the nuMovies), as we know what the "Space Seed" cryo-shelves looked like and these can't be the same thing, not even with slight visual "reimagining".

* Is continuity intact? If so, then Marcus re-packed the survivors from the Botany Bay in these chambers, which he purchased in the late 23rd century. Perhaps S31 is the only supplier, but still.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[stj]

Haha, I get it. You mock the movie.

Not quite. I mock the set designs a little, but anyone with eyes already did that for Abrams' last venture. Over and over throughout the movie the sets screamed "movie" and whispered "made by idiots!" This doesn't help improve the experience.

The clanging "cold fusion" sounded so grotesquely stupid it made me wince (literally.)

The first thing that really hurt suspension of disbelief were the scenes with the swimmers effortlessly swimming down. After all, a split second before they didn't even have masks on! Rendering the Nibiru sequence a kind of joke makes "Needs of the many..." a kind of punch line. In a movie that turned out to be about redoing high points ("beats") from Wrath of Khan, instead of being its own movie, that is very damaging.

The second thing that really hurt suspension of disbelief was the ship falling but people not being in free fall. The scenes really did not suggest the ship's gravity was malfunctioning. They suggested the ship was rolling, and that the downward pull was always towards the Earth, i.e., from the Earth. Whoever suggested the future was atheist clearly was talking from his ass, because only God knows why they'd leave the gravity on while they're rolling.

The rest is the usual rationalization game. Many in the thread are very entertaining, nicely done.

The scene that really raises the size issue was the one where the camera pulls back from the picture window on the bridge. It doesn't really pull back enough to diminish Kirk to a size that fits with the supposed dimensions of the ship. The inescapable (for me, at least) impression is that the picture window and Kirk are significant figures in comparison to the saucer surface. Which makes many interior scenes take place on a ship to small for the sets shown. Perhaps it seems unfair that a visual trumps the dialogue?

PS Marcus is the one talking about Section 31 and he's lying through his teeth, raising the question whether there really is such a thing.

 

[B.J.]

Kinda related to the purpose of this thread, but does anyone remember the exact sequence of the models on Marcus' desk? Specifically, I want to know where they put the ring ship.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Kinda related to the purpose of this thread, but does anyone remember the exact sequence of the models on Marcus' desk? Specifically, I want to know where they put the ring ship.

Details here: http://io9.com/a-close-up-look-at-the-star-trek-easter-egg-you-might-h-509076595

 

[stj]

Neat set of models. Thanks for the link.

 

[SeerSGB]

Regarding the cryopods, they seem to present us with a choice.

* Are they the original pods from the Botany Bay? If so, this is a solid bit of technology retconning (possibly the first in the nuMovies), as we know what the "Space Seed" cryo-shelves looked like and these can't be the same thing, not even with slight visual "reimagining".

* Is continuity intact? If so, then Marcus re-packed the survivors from the Botany Bay in these chambers, which he purchased in the late 23rd century. Perhaps S31 is the only supplier, but still.

Timo Saloniemi

I'm thinking he or Khan repacked them. The controls looked modern to the movie and it would make sense to have them in containers that he (Marcus) knew--or assumed--Khan didn't have a back door into.

 

[B.J.]

Kinda related to the purpose of this thread, but does anyone remember the exact sequence of the models on Marcus' desk? Specifically, I want to know where they put the ring ship.

Details here: http://io9.com/a-close-up-look-at-the-star-trek-easter-egg-you-might-h-509076595

Nice, thanks! Assuming that the order they have those pics in matches the arrangement on the desk, then the ringship was *before* the Phoenix. Considering that everything else was arranged chronologically, what does that mean for the history of warp flight? Perhaps the ringship was an earlier failed experiment? Or maybe not quite failed, just a stepping stone to actual FTL flight?

 

[Lee Enfield]

Kinda related to the purpose of this thread, but does anyone remember the exact sequence of the models on Marcus' desk? Specifically, I want to know where they put the ring ship.

Details here: http://io9.com/a-close-up-look-at-the-star-trek-easter-egg-you-might-h-509076595

Nice, thanks! Assuming that the order they have those pics in matches the arrangement on the desk, then the ringship was *before* the Phoenix. Considering that everything else was arranged chronologically, what does that mean for the history of warp flight? Perhaps the ringship was an earlier failed experiment? Or maybe not quite failed, just a stepping stone to actual FTL flight?

Perhaps no FTL at all. Just near space exploration. Mars Colonies perhaps? Neptune Research?

 

[bryce]

Yeah, they could really use a science adviser on these films.

 

[Lee Enfield]

Haha, I get it. You mock the movie.

Not quite.

Well, then I mocked the movie.





P.S. On a more rational thought: I like your contemplations. But Abrams doesn't care shit for our beloved Reasoning-Game. So in the end, it won't make much sense.

 

[Mytran]

The first thing that really hurt suspension of disbelief were the scenes with the swimmers effortlessly swimming down. After all, a split second before they didn't even have masks on!

I had the same thought when I saw the scene, but then I noticed a continuous stream of bubbles from their feet. It gave the impression of "thrust boots" of some sort, propelling them down. They'd certainly need the help at that depth!

Maybe they just whipped the masks into place when they hit the water, James-Bond-Thunderball style?

 

[B.J.]

Yeah, the boots were definitely providing thrust, especially since they were hardly moving their limbs at all.

 

[Timo]

The first thing that really hurt suspension of disbelief were the scenes with the swimmers effortlessly swimming down. After all, a split second before they didn't even have masks on!

I really don't understand this bit. What would be wrong with people swimming, say, twenty meters down without masks or flippers or other such equipment? I do it every so often, without much effort.

Is it that there's too little struggling with the limbs? But you wouldn't need that if you aren't buoyant but instead a bit denser than water, something fairly easily accomplished.

The second thing that really hurt suspension of disbelief was the ship falling but people not being in free fall. The scenes really did not suggest the ship's gravity was malfunctioning.

So why would anybody be in free fall? Artificial gravity exists to prevent that very thing!

PS Marcus is the one talking about Section 31 and he's lying through his teeth, raising the question whether there really is such a thing.

The same thing goes for Sloane in DS9. We have no evidence that he ever had an organization to back him up - his only colleagues were observed on a holodeck! For all we know, he was simply a former SF Intel agent who went crazy and rogue, with a few nuggets of important information that he could spin fantastic tales around.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[stj]

The first thing that really hurt suspension of disbelief were the scenes with the swimmers effortlessly swimming down. After all, a split second before they didn't even have masks on!

I had the same thought when I saw the scene, but then I noticed a continuous stream of bubbles from their feet. It gave the impression of "thrust boots" of some sort, propelling them down. They'd certainly need the help at that depth!

Maybe they just whipped the masks into place when they hit the water, James-Bond-Thunderball style?

I have no visual reference for cavitation bubbles and air bubble didn't make any sense.

Also...

Yeah, the boots were definitely providing thrust, especially since they were hardly moving their limbs at all.

If they're getting thrust from their feet, why would they move them at all? Every move would turn them I should think.

The first thing that really hurt suspension of disbelief were the scenes with the swimmers effortlessly swimming down. After all, a split second before they didn't even have masks on!

I really don't understand this bit. What would be wrong with people swimming, say, twenty meters down without masks or flippers or other such equipment? I do it every so often, without much effort.

Is it that there's too little struggling with the limbs? But you wouldn't need that if you aren't buoyant but instead a bit denser than water, something fairly easily accomplished.

First, my experience with diving a mere three meters doesn't fit. I'm impressed that you can go down so quickly. Second, and more importantly, the buoyant force doesn't depend upon water density alone, but water depth. I don't know how easy it would be to increase their body density when that affect physiology, nor how they would do it without divers' weights. But they certainly don't sink rapidly at first and slow down.

I'm sorry but to my eyes this scene just made me think of a bad movie made by people who were too pig ignorant to know how water in a swimming pool works, and didn't give a rat's ass if what they put on screen made a damn bit of sense.

The second thing that really hurt suspension of disbelief was the ship falling but people not being in free fall. The scenes really did not suggest the ship's gravity was malfunctioning.

So why would anybody be in free fall? Artificial gravity exists to prevent that very thing!

They would be in free fall because an intelligent person on the bridge would have turned the bloody artificial gravity off so that nobody would fall down the numerous shafts of unknown purpose!

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Good point about re-entry...but still, the Enterprise itself, with shields, couldn't stand the heat?

I'd be willing to bet that it COULD, and Sulu was just being a chicken.

Remember, he said the same thing at the end of the movie, actually: "If we don't get the shields up, we'll be incinerated when we hit the atmosphere!" (Guess what didn't happen when the Enterprise hit the atmosphere?)

Not that I necessarily blame him:Enterprise clearly isn't specked for exploding volcanos so there's really no way for Sulu to know one way or the other whether the ship can take it or not, but he knows it really fucked up his shuttlecraft, and he has little reason to expect the Enterprise would be much better off.

I would have prefered some excuse about how the volcano's weird magnetic properties that messed up the transporters and sensors, also messed up the shuttles computers of something. Heat alone just seems...silly.

Actually, I would prefer heat.

Heat is simple. Heat is a real thing. You can speculate about what heat can do and what it won't do and under what circumstances and whether or not the kind of heat you're encountering will screw up your engines.

"Weird magnetic properties" is an asspull. It SOUNDS smarter because most people don't actually know anything about electromagnetism and can't comment either way. Star Trek usually takes it a step further and lists something like "The Volcano ash is composed of irradiated trellium-D, which will negatively affect our shields and sensors and will also block transporter functions along with whatever the hell else the writers can think of." THAT would be bullshit, and it would sound like bullshit.

IMO, if any further explanation is really needed for why heat is a problem it should be a line of dialog inserted where Kirk calls Scotty for a second opinion and Scotty replies "You can try it, Jim, but you'll definitely void our warranty!"

And maybe I am wrong. 23rd century Alternate Universe shuttles just may not be built for that kind of heat. (But I imagine that they have *some* sort of radiation protection...)

I mean that I think that Scotty's "Transwarp Beaming" is possibily some sort of the ultra-long-range "Subspace Transporter" that we saw in TNG, and that Ferengi Ex-Damon used to beam across light years into Picard's Ready Room.

Just saying that they may be two different names for the same technology...or two very similar technologies - like "Transwarp Drive" and "Slipstream Drive" are very similar technologies.

Someone recently suggested to me that Scotty's "discovery of transwarp beaming" is actually a reference to one of the Starfleet Corps of Engineer novels and relates to Scott's activities in the 24th century after the Dyson Sphere incident. I don't know exactly which book, so I can't really check to see if it's true. Either way, it's a more than plausible explanation.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

I have no visual reference for cavitation bubbles and air bubble didn't make any sense.

Almost everyone I've seen that movie with -- including my Dad, the guy who had to see the Matrix four times before he realized the agents weren't actually humans -- recognized that they had some kind of propellers in their boots. I think you simply missed it.

The second thing that really hurt suspension of disbelief was the ship falling but people not being in free fall. The scenes really did not suggest the ship's gravity was malfunctioning.

So why would anybody be in free fall? Artificial gravity exists to prevent that very thing!

They would be in free fall because an intelligent person on the bridge would have turned the bloody artificial gravity off so that nobody would fall down the numerous shafts of unknown purpose!

Already covered this in my first post in this thread. Artificial gravity is what normally keeps everyone's feet pointed at the floor while the ship is turning, tumbling, maneuvering or accelerating. When the gravity keeps turning on and off, suddenly the main force acting on the ship's contents -- meaning the crew -- is the motion of the ship around its center of gravity. Which means if the Enterprise is tumbling, most of the crew is between one and three hundred meters from the ship's center of gravity; they're being tossed around like rag dolls literally every time the gravity field shuts down.

 

[WarpFactorZ]

I really don't understand this bit. What would be wrong with people swimming, say, twenty meters down without masks or flippers or other such equipment? I do it every so often, without much effort.

You swim down 20 metres without equipment, and "without much effort"? How do your ears feel about that.

 

[Timo]

But they certainly don't sink rapidly at first and slow down.

That's certainly different from freediving with a bit of extra weight, yes. But one of the most trivial things to do in a futuristic diving suit would be to have it maintain constant buoyancy. You wouldn't need much beyond that.

You swim down 20 metres without equipment, and "without much effort"? How do your ears feel about that.

I equalize pressure when the camera isn't watching, of course.

Okay, twenty might be overstating it, as it's a specific spot on a specific lake rather than a random glance at a depth gauge, sounded for more like 17 meters. But it's nicely beyond swimming pool depth to establish that you don't really need all that scuba gear, or all that caution associated with long stays. It's when you gear up (say, get a monofin and start going down more actively, for greater lengths of time) that you risk life and limb...

They would be in free fall because an intelligent person on the bridge would have turned the bloody artificial gravity off so that nobody would fall down the numerous shafts of unknown purpose!

I'm sorry but that doesn't make an ounce of sense. Gravity keeps people from being thrown about. You don't turn it off for safety!

One consequence of production realities is that turning off gravity is supposed to be somewhat difficult, even. We see it done in DS9 once or twice ("Past Prologue", "Melora"), and achieved violently in ST6, but it never happens by accident. The ship may be dead otherwise, but gravity lingers, even on Khan's centuries-dormant ship...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[stj]

I have no visual reference for cavitation bubbles and air bubble didn't make any sense.

Almost everyone I've seen that movie with -- including my Dad, the guy who had to see the Matrix four times before he realized the agents weren't actually humans -- recognized that they had some kind of propellers in their boots. I think you simply missed it.

So why would anybody be in free fall? Artificial gravity exists to prevent that very thing!

They would be in free fall because an intelligent person on the bridge would have turned the bloody artificial gravity off so that nobody would fall down the numerous shafts of unknown purpose!

Already covered this in my first post in this thread. Artificial gravity is what normally keeps everyone's feet pointed at the floor while the ship is turning, tumbling, maneuvering or accelerating. When the gravity keeps turning on and off, suddenly the main force acting on the ship's contents -- meaning the crew -- is the motion of the ship around its center of gravity. Which means if the Enterprise is tumbling, most of the crew is between one and three hundred meters from the ship's center of gravity; they're being tossed around like rag dolls literally every time the gravity field shuts down.

Every time the swimmers move their propellers, they change the direction of their motion, except that they didn't. This shows they weren't using propeller boots, no matter any bubbles.

At one point the Enterprise seems to be falling on its side, and Kirk has to leap over a cross corridor, from wall to wall. He is fearful that he will fall "down," meaning towards the Earth. But it is by no means obvious that the artificial gravity can even be tuned so that it points in a different direction. The mere ability to do so constitutes a safety hazard and a threat to the structural integrity of the ship. Also, no one ever accidentally launches themselves into the air whenever these alleged gravity failures occur. Nor is anybody falling "down" that giant hotel lobby space ever so fortunate as to have the supposedly malfunctioning gravity reverse and slow his fall. Also, the center of mass of the ship is irrelevant. Even if the ship were rotating as it fell, the conservation of angular momentum would keep the contents rotating with it. Only if there were angular acceleration on the vessel (as in the bridge crew trying to upright the ship as it fell) and there was a simultaneous gravity failure would anybody be tossed about. But even in this case, no one would be falling downward toward the Earth!

I'm sorry, all we see is people somehow falling faster than a free falling vessel.

 

[Herkimer Jitty]

Star Trek just has different laws of physics. Period. I know this from watching Voyager.