New To Voyager

[Lynx]

What is it about the Tuvix fix that everybody's so concerned with? Is it that Tuvix's disposal was so neat and tidy - that Captain Janeway's hands should've been a little more sullied by it? Let's face it ... Tuvix was an interesting novelty, but he had no future. What would people have wanted, instead? For Tuvix to have been duplicated, whilst Tuvok & Neelix were restored, probably. Then he could've gone the way of Thomas Riker. Would that have absolved the good captain, in fans eyes?

Here I totally agree.

"Tuvix" was a tragic result of a transporter accident. Janeway coreected that and restored two crewmembers who otherwised would have been wiped out. It was a choice between them or "Tuvix" and I think Janeway did the right decision.
It was no murder.

Sometimes I also have a feeling that if Kirk or Picard had been in the same situation and done the same thing, no one would have objected.

 

[Melakon]

Yeah, I don't find Tuvix to be a sympathetic character at all, and have a bit of surprise that people get snookered by his attempt to manipulate the crews' emotions. It certainly unworthy of a Vulcan to try and claim his life is more important than doing what's best for the ship. Neelix might have been capable of it before allying with Voyager, but even he seems to go through a change of priorities. But for Tuvix, it's all about him and screw what anyone else thinks.

 

[2takesfrakes]

Sometimes I also have a feeling that if Kirk or Picard had been in the same situation and done the same thing, no one would have objected.

No one has ever accused me of being a Feminist, god knows, but I've never understood this accusation that some fans judge Janeway harshly for what Kirk or Picard would've done. It sounds more like an attempt to deflect criticism, really. ALL of the other (male) captains get shat upon for perceived command decisions the fans thought were piss poor. That aside, however, I'm curious about one thing:

With that other Tuvix thread that was so popular for like a year, or whatever ... was there ever any sort of concensus, or agreement, or anything insightful presented in the end? Or was it just kind of derailed by the 2nd or third page, as they often do?

 

[Guy Gardener]

Janeway isn't a woman.

She's a fictional character written mostly by men.

Feminism does not apply.

You could say that that the men writing her are out of touch, on the ball, or hate women, but to suggest that Janeway does anything good or bad, because she is a woman or that's what women do, is a lack of contact with reality from whosoever is casting this assumption.

Men can't be feminists?

Sure.

But not Berman, and not Braga, who are apes.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

With that other Tuvix thread that was so popular for like a year, or whatever ... was there ever any sort of concensus, or agreement, or anything insightful presented in the end? Or was it just kind of derailed by the 2nd or third page, as they often do?

We all came to a very solemn consensus which we swore we would never reveal to anyone with less than 30 posts in that thread. There is also a handshake.

 

[Garren]

We all came to a very solemn consensus which we swore we would never reveal to anyone with less than 30 posts in that thread. There is also a handshake.

So many secrets hidden on this bbs...

 

[Melakon]

There was no consensus in the year-long thread, which used biased phrasing to pose its question in the title to begin with ("murder"). The word consensus suggests everyone took some kind of a vote to reach a final decision. There were over 80 individuals who contributed to the thread and oddly, the OP made only that first post, so obviously had no interest in actually discussing anything. Most posters made 10 or less comments. Who made the most, with over twice as many comments (248) as the person in second place (120)? Well, let's just say it wasn't some ordinary guy.

 

[Garren]

Sometimes I also have a feeling that if Kirk or Picard had been in the same situation and done the same thing, no one would have objected.

In my mind, I definitely see Picard defending Tuvix' right to live, especially after his private emotional plea for life. I base this on Picard's behaviors in such episodes as I, Borg and Silicon Avatar.

On the flip side, while I've seen little of TOS, I imagine Kirk actually following Janeway's decision but I also envision him handling it far better. Janeway had Tuvix dragged out, almost kicking and screaming for mercy. I feel that Kirk would have done something to ease Tuvix into the idea, to convince him it was the right decision.

Given time, I think Tuvix would have agreed to the operation. He needed more time to come to terms with ending his own existence. I think the love he had for Kes, and knowing Tuvok had a family would have swayed him eventually.

That's just hopeful thinking though.

So I was watching Resolution last night... I was a little disgusted how quickly Janeway went from this face at the end of Tuvix:


"The shadow of my decision over one man's life to restore two others will haunt me throughout this long voyage..."

To...



"Tu-who? O-o-oh Cha-KOH-tay..."

Janeway's flimsy character aside, I was also surprised by how much of a insubordinate, disrespectful brat Harry was. Tuvok could have sold his argument a little better but it goes without saying that Tuvok wants to make sure they are not overpowered and harvested for organs based on hopeful whims.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

There was no consensus in the year-long thread, which used biased phrasing to pose its question in the title to begin with ("murder"). The word consensus suggests everyone took some kind of a vote to reach a final decision. There were over 80 individuals who contributed to the thread and oddly, the OP made only that first post, so obviously had no interest in actually discussing anything. Most posters made 10 or less comments. Who made the most, with over twice as many comments (248) as the person in second place (120)? Well, let's just say it wasn't some ordinary guy.

You are out of the club.

 

[Melakon]

But I was in the top four at 79!

 

[JirinPanthosa]

When I first saw The Thaw I hated it, just because at the time I was annoyed at Matrix style "You die in the simulation you die in real life cause of mind body connection and stuff" stories.

Later I liked it more because of its TOS-ness.

I do think Tuvix was murder. You could argue, lives of two people versus lives of one person, but then you could make the same argument for hospitals kidnapping people to use their organs for transplants. Kill one person to give one person a heart transplant, one person a liver transplant, two people lung transplants and two people kidney transplants. Six lives for one, same moral imperative, right? At the time, Tuvix was alive and Tuvok and Neelix were not. A real life versus hypothetical lives, the real life wins.

If it weren't two main characters who the audience knew for a fact would be restored by the end of the episode, it would have been harder for the audience to accept. The audience accepts it because they were emotionally invested in Tuvok and Neelix and not Tuvix.

 

[Drone]

Beltran didn't have a lot of dynamics in his vocal range during his scenes, unlike Picardo, or Phillips, or just about anyone else. The tonalities in his voice are pretty much constant, with no highs or lows. It's like he was trying to underplay the character for some reason, instead of pulling out all the stops.

Hmm... referencing Wang's noted comments here about the producers' instructing the actors portraying humans to do so with restraint and lack of color and vitality, or some such dictum. Ya think???

 

[Drone]

"The shadow of my decision over one man's life to restore two others will haunt me throughout this long voyage..."
QUOTE]

The operative word here, which you have chosen to use, is restore. They weren't dead, they were merely slumbering. The lifeform identified as Tuvix simply had to be re-morphed to resume its rightful order, as two entities named Tuvok and Neelix, a structure that frankly had just been usurped for a brief period of time before the means to undo the strange effect was discovered.

I have no qualms about the cloning option having been opted for. It would have given a sterling actor the potential for an occasion or two to reprise a finely realized characterization. Also, I think I would relish seeing the kinda weird dynamic of Tuvix interacting with his progenitors and especially their perception of him.

But murder? No, it didn't happen as I see it. A balance temporarily disturbed was restored.

 

[Garren]

The operative word here, which you have chosen to use, is restore.

Only because it's how I interpret Janeway's thoughts and I want to be true to Janeway no matter how biased I may be.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Temporary is not One Month.

But then Tuvok was Captain for 8 months and no one ever mentions that either.

 

[Drone]

Temporary is not One Month.

But then Tuvok was Captain for 8 months and no one ever mentions that either.

Well, speaking of Tuvok, one month is pretty fleeting in the face of his life's history of wherever he was in the triple digits.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Neelix has an Ocampan lung inside him that is going to putter out in just 5 years.

Tuvix might live for another 2 hundred years.

It's almost like murdering Neelix to extract all the Vulcan DNA out of his body.

 

[Melakon]

Neelix has an Ocampan lung inside him that is going to putter out in just 5 years.

This is part of the problem I have with Tuvix as a cocktail blender lifeform. He's part Vulcan and part Talaxian. But he's also part flower, and should have some Ocampa DNA in there as well due to the lung. Some Kes ears instead of pointy ears might have been appropriate. And chlorophyll in his veins. And what about the placement of internal organs? Where's his heart located? Does he have any organs unique to Talaxians? Externally, he's sort of a Vulcan with a paint job.

 

[Guy Gardener]

When they split B'Elanna, the Human half that wasn' killed was unsustainable.

She would have died without reintegration with remnants from the Klingon corpse that also used to be her.

How tidy.

Meanwhile in Deadlock they all became unresovlable transporter accidents who have to accept that are all %50 the people they used to be. Half men and half women.

Meanhile how many people did Tuvok murder in repression?

3?

4?

Sure Janeway can't have known about that, but the brainwashing was inside Tuvok and just waiting for a trigger so that he can murder death kill the Maquis crew all and sundry.

Tuvok living means that every Maquis on the ship must die, and depending on how competant he is, they will all die.

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

She thought she was doing the right thing.

This woman is a twit!

That and a cold blooded murderer...

The only instance ever of a Star fleet Captain executing an innocent person.