I had a magazine article calling him Doc Zimmerman from just before the premiere. He was supposed to be a holographic impression left by the original Zimmerman (Voyager's assigned CMO) before his death.
A friend said it two days ago.
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I had a magazine article calling him Doc Zimmerman from just before the premiere. He was supposed to be a holographic impression left by the original Zimmerman (Voyager's assigned CMO) before his death.
A friend said it two days ago.
What is it about the Tuvix fix that everybody's so concerned with? Is it that Tuvix's disposal was so neat and tidy - that Captain Janeway's hands should've been a little more sullied by it? Let's face it ... Tuvix was an interesting novelty, but he had no future. What would people have wanted, instead? For Tuvix to have been duplicated, whilst Tuvok & Neelix were restored, probably. Then he could've gone the way of Thomas Riker. Would that have absolved the good captain, in fans eyes?
All Tuvix needed to do to survive is destroy the EMH entirely or maybe just his work product.
Who has a greater right to existence, Tuvix or the EMH?
Who has a greater right to existence, Tuvix or the EMH?
My problem is not what happened to Tuvix but how it happened. I knew, logically, that Tuvix wouldn't stay as a character and I was fine with that... at first. That is, I accepted it until Tuvix dropped the bomb on the whole episode by saying he didn't want to die.
Regardless of how he came into being, he was still a living person. As Tuvix put it: "When I'm happy, I laugh. When I'm sad, I cry; when I stub my toe, I yell out in pain. I'm flesh and blood. And I... have the right to live!"
What hurts more was that bridge scene. Tuvix cries out for people to help: "Commander, are you going to stand by and do nothing while she commits murder? Mister Ayala. Yes, Lieutenant Paris. You. Doesn't anyone see that this is wrong?"
That was painful to watch - imagine yourself in his shoes. You've spent weeks aboard a ship, began to form friendships and figure out your identity and place. And when someone comes to kill you, none of them so much as utter a protest.
For Janeway to hear the pleas of an innocent man and take his life with her own hands, yeah... that puts a shadow over her for the rest of this show for me. I don't know if I'll truly like her as a character after that. I guess I will find out.
What you suggested would have been more pleasing. But speaking of Tuvix as a story, of course the tragic stories are far more interesting. I agree with the way the writers ended things. But damn, did they end up making me hate certain characters for it.
If it was the intention of the writers of Tuvix to create a moral dilemma for viewers to debate and think about, then I'd say that they succeeded beyond their wildest dreams.
Situations like this remind me of the Voyager episode where the Doctor was faced with the decision of having two critical patients, but only being able to save one.
Or, the example I like to ponder: if an endangered animal is about to eat an endangered plant, what do you do?
Situations like this remind me of the Voyager episode where the Doctor was faced with the decision of having two critical patients, but only being able to save one.
Or, the example I like to ponder: if an endangered animal is about to eat an endangered plant, what do you do?
Nothing. If you weren't there, the animal would eat the plant anyway, and you'd never know about it. It's just a normal act of nature.Or, the example I like to ponder: if an endangered animal is about to eat an endangered plant, what do you do?
Janeway is a force of nature.
I have never been able to understand how some people can defend Janeway here, SHE MURDERED A MAN who was begging to live and the rest of the crew just stood by watching. Is it the ridicules setup to the problem (transporter accident) that throws people off?
In the season one episode "Phage" Janeway says
In the season one episode "Phage" Janeway says
If only the writers had remembered that.
Nothing. If you weren't there, the animal would eat the plant anyway, and you'd never know about it. It's just a normal act of nature.Or, the example I like to ponder: if an endangered animal is about to eat an endangered plant, what do you do?
Which is a point in itself: nature = ethics made easy.
For example, it wasn't "wrong" for the dinosaurs to be wiped out. It just was.
I don't recall it being easy at all for Janeway to make her decision. Something had to be done. I can easily envision people (people, generally speaking) having a problem if she had decided to let Tuvix live on, ethically saying 'whatever will be, will be'.
Heavy is the head that wears the crown.
Two years in the Delta Quadrant was causing her to re-evaluate her high-minded principles.
eta:
And there was no way to predict how Tuvix would have behaved in an actual crisis. She knew she could count on Tuvok, she knew she could count on Neelix. And when Tuvix was faced with the hard choice, his thoughts were not about the ship but himself.
eta:
And there was no way to predict how Tuvix would have behaved in an actual crisis. She knew she could count on Tuvok, she knew she could count on Neelix. And when Tuvix was faced with the hard choice, his thoughts were not about the ship but himself.
What there should have been, to stop all us defenders in our tracks, is BLOOD.
A man is cleaved in two, and there should have been blood and screaming and maybe some loose bowels and all the awful things that violent surgery brings with it.
A man is cleaved in two, and there should have been blood and screaming and maybe some loose bowels and all the awful things that violent surgery brings with it.
I'm willing to give Janeway the benefit of the doubt.
A few years back, I was in the position of making a life-terminating decision with a close relative. At every moment you're sure you're making the right choice, you in turn doubt your certainty. I've no doubt that in the fictional world of Star Trek, Janeway was similarly haunted...
A few years back, I was in the position of making a life-terminating decision with a close relative. At every moment you're sure you're making the right choice, you in turn doubt your certainty. I've no doubt that in the fictional world of Star Trek, Janeway was similarly haunted...
Sisko said that he could live with being a dick in The Pale Moon Light, becuase the ends justified the means.
The difference is that Janeway still insisted that she did the right thing, therefore she couldn't feel guilty becuase she hadn't done anything wrong.
There's aword for that kind of behaviour. Pathalogical.
The difference is that Janeway still insisted that she did the right thing, therefore she couldn't feel guilty becuase she hadn't done anything wrong.
There's aword for that kind of behaviour. Pathalogical.
After Tuvix was born, there was month till the episode ended.
No weird giant space vagina's tried to eat the ship, no pirates and no pitched battles against assholes in general.
Think about that.
Once they got rid of Tuivx it was balls to the wall action and drama resulting in the losses of limbs and lives that seemed to never end.
Tuvix in retrospect promoted boredom and tedium.
He's a cooler.
If Tuvix had stayed, nothing at all out of the ordinary, good or bad would have happened to Voyager again, all the way home.
I remember that quote. Funny how her principles have loosened over the course of episodes.
I see your point, Guy, and I'm not insensitive to it. But I don't see a leader being able to wring his/her hands. Kirk made a few tough decisions himself. I'm not saying I fully agree with Janeway necessarily, but I don't matter.
Thinking about this, I can easily picture Janeway saying " I'm a Starfleet Captain. I can't afford the luxury of guilt.". As sucky as that sounds, I must unfortunately agree.
You might need to read what I wrote again.
But then again, nevermind, the Tuvix show is the song that never ends.
You know what would have been a perfect follow up to Tuvix?
Night.
Janeway rocking in her quarters for three months unable to resolve her worst decisions, during this brief break in the ongoing chaos.
Making that about caretaker, absolving her of caretaker in year 5, simply addresses how much of her personality had been submerged to keep her going forward for 4 entire years.
But then again, nevermind, the Tuvix show is the song that never ends.
You know what would have been a perfect follow up to Tuvix?
Night.
Janeway rocking in her quarters for three months unable to resolve her worst decisions, during this brief break in the ongoing chaos.
Making that about caretaker, absolving her of caretaker in year 5, simply addresses how much of her personality had been submerged to keep her going forward for 4 entire years.
Boy, you got that right!
I'm only now giving Voyager a second chance, having abandoned it for the most part back when season 2 was new. I'll get back to you after I've seen more. Maybe in the context of greater knowledge, I'll have a different opinion. My strongest memory was of Janeway stopping to investigate every molecule they encountered along the way. In other words, I'm sway-able!
I wouldn't have minded seeing that.
In fact, I suspect that it would've made Janeway out to look even more a hero. Seeing her stalk down a perceived threat to her crewmen, even resorting to hurling knives to do it. Just before she impales him, she could yell out, "I want Tuvok and Neelix back! Come back here, you abomination!!!" In a curious way, it would've thrown her love and affection for the crew into sharp relief.
Yes. An abomination. That is exactly what it was.
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