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We bought both years of Carnivale on a sale a few months ago, and I just finished watching the first season.
I really don't care for this show. If I didn't have waaaaay too much free time (just lost my job- thanks economy!) I would have given up much sooner. Each episode is a full hour and nothing ever happens in it. I'm interested in the fantasy/mystery aspect of the show, but 9/10 of each episode is about who's screwing who. It's like a horrible period soap opera with fleeting moments of intrigue thrown in.
And the story moves SO SLOW. After the entire first season went by, what happened? We learned nothing about Management, except that one time he/it disappeared or something. We learned that the guy in Ben's dreams is his father and used to run with the circus but that's it. We saw Brother Justin go through a change but it took 12 episodes for it to happen.
Please tell me the second season is better. And that it will explain things. I know the show was supposed to run 6 years but got cancelled (SIX YEARS OF THIS?!). I've also read it's amazingly deep and literate, but this doesn't match to what I'm seeing on screen at all. All I'm seeing is people sitting around talking about their feewings and showing their breasts constantly.
Not to mention the greatest complaint of all, Ben and Justin don't even meet in the first season!!! Am I to understand they don't even meet until the final episode?!
The second season is better IMO, but that's not to say that I think there's much wrong with the first.
Re: the above, are you sure? The second season had already wrapped well before HBO cancelled it. The way I've always heard it was that the six years would cover 3 different, but inter-connected stories, which the focus shifting to different characters, but still including the previous ones to some degree.
If they were writing it as a conclusion then I doubt that the last scene would have been filmed, it serves as a finale much better without it.
The second season is better IMO, but that's not to say that I think there's much wrong with the first.
Re: the above, are you sure? The second season had already wrapped well before HBO cancelled it. The way I've always heard it was that the six years would cover 3 different, but inter-connected stories, which the focus shifting to different characters, but still including the previous ones to some degree.
Absolutely. I'm going off conversations I had with series creator Daniel Knauf back in 2006, and panels at CarnyCon that same year. Sofie's newfound role (I'm going spoiler-free for the uninitiated here) would have thrust her into the spotlight for seasons 3 and 4, and seasons 5 and 6 would have been the final "book", more than likely concluding with one of the visions from 2x01 (you know the one I mean). HBO meddled with season 2 quite a bit, telling the writers about six episodes into filming that they had 12 episodes to work with that season, instead of the 16 that had been ordered. Erp.
Well I just saw 2X01 and it was a great improvement. Within the first five minutes of the show there was a major explanation; we learned the identity of Management, learned he's an actual person in there, and that he was the previous iteration that Ben is now. And we learned that Ben and Justin must both locate Scudder and that Justin will become invincible if he kills him. This is moving the story forward! I also felt that Justin's story was moving forward at a faster pace and he was becoming a more interesting character.
Also, that vision of the A-Bomb test was a great scene.
Also, no gratuitous nudity for once! Seriously what is the point of the entire striptease family storyline. That's what really dragged down the S1 episodes for me.
Absolutely. I'm going off conversations I had with series creator Daniel Knauf back in 2006, and panels at CarnyCon that same year. Sofie's newfound role (I'm going spoiler-free for the uninitiated here) would have thrust her into the spotlight for seasons 3 and 4, and seasons 5 and 6 would have been the final "book", more than likely concluding with one of the visions from 2x01 (you know the one I mean). HBO meddled with season 2 quite a bit, telling the writers about six episodes into filming that they had 12 episodes to work with that season, instead of the 16 that had been ordered. Erp.
The second season is worse IMO, for production vales and dvd price it comes off as one of HBO's worst. Stick to the Rome series or From The Earth to the Moon series. The show Carnivale had good potential but moved at a snails pace with too much slow build up and intrigue leading the viewer to believe something big is gonna happen but its just all boring badly written drama not unlike J J's LOST. You are lead to believe the show has something special with all this magic, history, religion but its just not there. The show had some really strong cast members but also a few dead weights like Nick Stahl (I think he's a useless actor) I began to stop watching about 2 episodes of the second as I relaized the show was going nowehere so I FastForwarded to the last episode
SPOILERS
Hitting the FF button Best thing I ever did wit the seires. The series was a waste of time the producers stated rubbing their palms like a Scrooge with dollar signs in their eyes, there is no conclusion. No character journey, no story conclusion, no force of darkness vs good because they were gearing up for moredollars flowing from the third
All of a sudden we are told the priest has got a new daughter and inherits his increadible power and like that crappy Halloween movie where the girl walks down the stairs with the michael myers mask they just decided to suddenly end it all there. LAME
The best thing about this show was the opening creidts
I have not seen S2 yet but I did enjoy S1 a lot. I'm usually not a fan of shows that move at the pace of a snail, but for some reason this one just gripped me. I credit part of that to the imagery, which really is nicely done. I wouldn't call it the best show evar, but it was definitely entertaining to me.
My main complaint is that so much screen time of the first season was about the stripping family and their various affairs. Their very existence just seems completely superfluous to the actual storyline. In fact on wiki they said that the strip family wasn't even part of the original pitch but a suggestion added in after the fact. The focus really should have always been on the mysterious characters; Ben, Justin, Management, Samson, Lodz... I could truly give a fig about anyone else.
Speak of the devil I'm watching 2X2 right now and its the strippers showing their breasts. Is this supposed to be artistic or something, or just trying to get the guys to watch? It's just embarassing. I'm glad I'm not watching this with anyone
As Roger Ebert says, it's intellectually dishonest to criticize something for having a different emphasis than you'd prefer. If you don't like the Dreifuss family, that's your prerogative, but Carnivàle is only half fantasy, so you shouldn't expect it to be as plot-heavy as, say, Harry Potter.
The whole point of the show is that Ben must learn to fight for everyday, nonmagical people. If we never see, learn about or feel for such people, it's just wizards fighting wizards, and, again, you can get that in Rowling's kiddie pool of an elitist fantasy. This show is more adult, with more nuanced emotions and psychology.
Speak of the devil I'm watching 2X2 right now and its the strippers showing their breasts. Is this supposed to be artistic or something, or just trying to get the guys to watch? It's just embarassing. I'm glad I'm not watching this with anyone
Yes, but it's also historically accurate, and not presented as erotic. Btw, not everyone is embarrassed by the sight of the human figure, especially in an historical context.
The second season is worse IMO, for production vales and dvd price it comes off as one of HBO's worst. Stick to the Rome series or From The Earth to the Moon series. The show Carnivale had good potential but moved at a snails pace with too much slow build up and intrigue leading the viewer to believe something big is gonna happen but its just all boring badly written drama not unlike J J's LOST. You are lead to believe the show has something special with all this magic, history, religion but its just not there. The show had some really strong cast members but also a few dead weights like Nick Stahl (I think he's a useless actor) I began to stop watching about 2 episodes of the second as I relaized the show was going nowehere so I FastForwarded to the last episode
SPOILERS
Hitting the FF button Best thing I ever did wit the seires. The series was a waste of time the producers stated rubbing their palms like a Scrooge with dollar signs in their eyes, there is no conclusion. No character journey, no story conclusion, no force of darkness vs good because they were gearing up for moredollars flowing from the third
All of a sudden we are told the priest has got a new daughter and inherits his increadible power and like that crappy Halloween movie where the girl walks down the stairs with the michael myers mask they just decided to suddenly end it all there. LAME
The best thing about this show was the opening creidts
The second season is worse IMO, for production vales and dvd price it comes off as one of HBO's worst. Stick to the Rome series or From The Earth to the Moon series. The show Carnivale had good potential but moved at a snails pace with too much slow build up and intrigue leading the viewer to believe something big is gonna happen but its just all boring badly written drama not unlike J J's LOST. You are lead to believe the show has something special with all this magic, history, religion but its just not there. The show had some really strong cast members but also a few dead weights like Nick Stahl (I think he's a useless actor) I began to stop watching about 2 episodes of the second as I relaized the show was going nowehere so I FastForwarded to the last episode
SPOILERS
Hitting the FF button Best thing I ever did wit the seires. The series was a waste of time the producers stated rubbing their palms like a Scrooge with dollar signs in their eyes, there is no conclusion. No character journey, no story conclusion, no force of darkness vs good because they were gearing up for moredollars flowing from the third
All of a sudden we are told the priest has got a new daughter and inherits his increadible power and like that crappy Halloween movie where the girl walks down the stairs with the michael myers mask they just decided to suddenly end it all there. LAME
The best thing about this show was the opening creidts
There's so much wrong in this post I don't know where to begin. Rome was dreadful; if you want to talk production values, they should have invested in something as simple as lighting for that piece of "television".
What does "flowing from the third" even mean?
The revelation of Brother Justin's
offspring is not "all of a sudden". It's actually in, you know, the first line of dialogue in the show. As Appy is being raped by the Tattooed Man, you can clearly hear her shouting out "JUSTIN, NO!"
And there was no way they "decided to end it there". It was canceled.
No character journey - Erm, yes there was.....
No force of darkness vs good - Erm, yes there was.....
Criticising the cast is equally as pointless an exercise, given that they were uniformly excellent. Stahl's not my favourite actor by any stretch of the imagination, but he was flawless as Ben Hawkins.
You are lead to believe the show has something special with all this magic, history, religion but its just not there.
Agreed. If you don't have patience, the show's not for you. It's really as simple as that. If you want instant gratification, go watch According to Jim.
I've been contemplating Netflixing this thing. I have the distinct impression the series is about an apocalyptic confrontation between Good and Evil. Yet, since it's set in the Thirties or thereabouts, we know there was no Apocalypse. Isn't this sort of a dead fish slapping you in the face?
As far as not being able to delay gratification, the resentment expressed is that the story had no resolution. That's not delayed gratification, that's no gratification, which does seem something to be peeved at in a TV series. Also, there are people who dislike the twists and turns in a serialized show because they actually remember the previous story line and therefore realize how silly the plot got!
I liken Carnivàle to a nightmare, a weird and sensuous experience that ends suddenly, with some resolutions but more new questions.
One neat thing about it is that the Good and Evil characters are not at all black and white. We get some sense of how the evil protagonist is slowly corrupted by his powers, and a great deal of development in which the good protagonist must outgrow his unhappy past in order to fulfill his potential. It's not always as complex as it aspires to be, but it's light-years ahead of Harry Potter or Star Wars.
Try the first episode or two. You might be gripped.
IMO the production was over priced offering little in return. Look at the cost per episode, you've got boring repetitive sets, got expensive actors (Ok I admit the show has some very good actors but it's also blown its budget on crap actors like Stahl) you've got poor management of the writers and story, boring costume like something out of a trailer park boot sale. California is way too expensive and it cost Carnivale something like 5 million for every hour, they could have done this series anywhere and if they shot it in Nevada or Mexico or Australia I'm sure they could have cut their production costs in half. Rumor has it they refused to move location and wanted to stay as close to Los Angeles so they could to some ass sniffing with the Hollywood bigwigs and line up their next tv series.
There's so much wrong in this post I don't know where to begin. Rome was dreadful; if you want to talk production values, they should have invested in something as simple as lighting for that piece of "television".
What does "flowing from the third" even mean?
The revelation of Brother Justin's offspring is not "all of a sudden". It's actually in, you know, the first line of dialogue in the show. As Appy is being raped by the Tattooed Man, you can clearly hear her shouting out "JUSTIN, NO!"
And there was no way they "decided to end it there". It was canceled.
Rome was 10 times better than Carnivale, and From The Earth to the Moon at least 100 times better with much stronger fx, acting, dialogue and production.
What did I mean by dollars flowing from the third? Read again what I wrote and you might understand.
Or let me explain : In my opinion Daniel Knauf, García, Prestwich, Moore and Bender started to see the series as cash cow once some critics started to warm to the series. They saw it as an idea that would now be generating unusually high profit which IMO is why they decided to drag the series out and make the story rudderless, they took a gamble to strech it and the series flopped. A few months later some of the same writers and producers would be trying the exact same junk on other tv shows but allowed get away with it .
SPOLIERS
So you say Justin's kid wasn't sudden because of Appy! Who the heck is Appy? I assume that's the Apollonia veggie character right? If I remember her only talent was she would dream up visions and psychically communicate them to her kid and for about 5 seconds during an episode we were left with some extremely vague vison of some tattoo man violating her, the vision is sooo damn murky it could have happened back in the 1800s. It must have been extremly boring for Diane Salinger to spend the entire series gawking at the wall with a vacant experssion on their face, surely the writers could have come up with something better than this.
Explain to me how the hell the audience was supposed to know she was preggers. When she didn't even have a bump and spent 99.99% of the series in a vegtable like catatonic state!? Whatever spirtual, intrigue and magic this story is trying to tell it gets a FAIL from me because of the failure of the Carnivale writers to communicate a good story and dragging the series out too much.
The Fox series Firefly greatly entertained me, HBOs From the Earth to the Moon amazed me but by the time I got to episode 20 in Carnivale I was completely bored and I was completely indifferent to whatever depression-era-religious-mumbojumbo the Carnivale writers were trying to sell us.
What I don't understand with the majority of tv shows is they never get slammed, critics never have the guts to change their opinons and trash them after they have given their praise to the pilot. Fact is the majority of tv shows are just out there to make money from syndication and will do this by dragging out the drama and story forever and ever. Yes there are few example like HBO's From The Earth to the Moon which have zero intention of dragging a story and just want to make a short, high quality compact series. But most shows don't follow this path and critics don't have the backbone to call them on it. For example the series "LOST" interested me for a while, it had good actors and you thought something clever was going on with the flash forwards and flashbacks. However as most of us know the show was a big smoke screen and complete crap. Yet no critic will dare trash the show LOST, and series like this tend to have groupies who will defend the series with their dyng breaths. Carnivale was on a similar path to "LOST". a show with good potential but they blew it. I never liked Stahl, I think he's one of the most overrated hammy actors out there. Nick Stahl goes down as one of those weak well-known movie actors, the fact T4 gave him the boot means he always be below a hammy 80s action hero like Schwarzenegger and Stahl has less ability than Thomas Dekker.
Rome was 10 times better than Carnivale, and From The Earth to the Moon at least 100 times better with much stronger fx, acting, dialogue and production.
I'm not a massive fan of Rome, but I can appreciate that in terms of production values it was very good. From the Earth to the Moon is one of my favourite mini-series, and like Band of Brothers, again, its production values were high.
I don't particularly agree however that the production values were any better than those of Carnivale. Part of the reason behind the cancellation of the series ultimately was down to the cost of the show, which IMO, showed on screen. It was not an in-expensive show to make. $4m per episode from memory.
I doubt that you'd be hard pushed to find a better representation of the dust bowl during the great depression.
let me explain : In my opinion Daniel Knauf, García, Prestwich, Moore and Bender started to see the series as cash cow once some critics started to warm to the series. They saw it as an idea that would now be generating unusually high profit which IMO is why they decided to drag the series out and make the story rudderless, they took a gamble to strech it and the series flopped. A few months later some of the same writers and producers would be trying the exact same junk on other tv shows but allowed get away with it .
This view is complete rubbish. For a start, Knauf et al would not be swayed by critical opinion, as in terms of popularity it counts for very little. A better view is that of the viewing figures it pulls in. Sadly, to that end, Carnivale struggled. It was never in any real danger of becoming anything other than a minor niche success. In terms of cash cows, how did this manifest itself? Was the merchandising arm in full swing? The only thing I've ever bought are the DVDs. If we're deeming any series to see a DVD release as being a cash cow then we'd be here all day rattling off the names. Likewise, look at the likes of ER, or Law & Order, shows that are well past their prime but still keep getting rattled out. Star Trek's probably the best example yet. Why did they persist with Voyager and Enterprise so long before putting the franchise into mothballs? I'm sure merchandising had nothing to do with that at all did it? Either way, who do you think would be making these kind of strategic decisions? Is it more likely that it's the production people, who 1) have no say in whether shows get renewed/cancelled, and 2) don't benefit so much from the merchandising/success of the series as the network/production company do, or was it HBO?
Bottom line, Knauf et al were in no position to make those kind of strategic business decisions, and even if they were, there was little motivation for them to place commerce over creativity. Knauf has made it perfectly clear, HBO owned the show, lock, stock and barrel. This is what prevented the series being picked up by any other network. Of course, you're also attributing these financial lusts of fancy to Ron Moore as well, which is wide of the mark either way, given that he left before the second season even began.....
So you say Justin's kid wasn't sudden because of Appy! Who the heck is Appy? I assume that's the Apollonia veggie character right? If I remember her only talent was she would dream up visions and psychically communicate them to her kid and for about 5 seconds during an episode we were left with some extremely vague vison of some tattoo man violating her, the vision is sooo damn murky it could have happened back in the 1800s. It must have been extremly boring for Diane Salinger to spend the entire series gawking at the wall with a vacant experssion on their face, surely the writers could have come up with something better than this.
Explain to me how the hell the audience was supposed to know she was preggers. When she didn't even have a bump and spent 99.99% of the series in a vegtable like catatonic state!? Whatever spirtual, intrigue and magic this story is trying to tell it gets a FAIL from me because of the failure of the Carnivale writers to communicate a good story and dragging the series out too much. The Fox series Firefly greatly entertained me, HBOs From the Earth to the Moon amazed me but by the time I got to episode 20 in Carnivale I was completely bored and I was completely indifferent to whatever depression-era-religious-mumbojumbo the Carnivale writers were trying to sell us.
came late in the day, but it's quite clear that the groundwork for this revelation had begun to be laid even during the first season. Granted much of this is more obvious in hindsight, but again, if you skipped the majority of the season, it's not difficult to see why it struck as being 'sudden'.
Re Diane Salinger's role, arguably the creepiest on the show, irrelevant of how much physical effort she had to put in.
Re Apollonia's pregnancy, schoolboy error, she wasn't pregnant during the series.
As to the relevant merits of Carnivale's story, you're remiss in comparing it to the likes of Firefly or From the Earth to the Moon. Both are vastly different shows, and if you were seriously expecting more of the same from Carnivale then I'd suggest that the fault lies with you for not tuning out after an episode or two. It's perfectly clear from the start that Carnivale was going to be a slow-burner. If that's not your cup of tea, I really wouldn't have persisted.
Did the story suffer from premature cancellation? To an extent yes, but that didn't totally invalidate everything that had gone before it. Yes there were threads unresolved, and questions unanswered, but for me, there was a certain sense of resolution, enough to at least satisfy me on a certain level. Sure, given the demise of the show I wished they hadn't tacked on that last scene, but I can live with it.
What I don't understand with the majority of tv shows is they never get slammed, critics never have the guts to change their opinons and trash them after they have given their praise to the pilot. Fact is the majority of tv shows are just out there to make money from syndication and will do this by dragging out the drama and story forever and ever. Yes there are few example like HBO's From The Earth to the Moon which have zero intention of dragging a story and just want to make a short, high quality compact series. But most shows don't follow this path and critics don't have the backbone to call them on it. For example the series "LOST" intrested me for a while, it had good actors and you thought something clever was going on with the flash forwards and flashbacks. However as most of us know the show was a big smoke screen and complete crap. Yet no critic will dare trash the show LOST, and series like this tend to have groupies who will defend the series with their dyng breaths. Carnivale was on a similar path to "LOST". a show with good potential but they blew it. I never liked Stahl, I think he's one of the most overrated hammy actors out there. Nick Stahl goes down as one of those weak well-known movie actors, the fact T4 gave him the boot means he always be below a hammy 80s action hero like Schwarzenegger and Stahl has less abilty than Thomas Dekker.
Again, I wouldn't necessarily agree with that. Opinions over the likes of ER, Law & Order and even CSI have changed over time. ER was hailed as one of the greatest series of all times at certain points much earlier in the show's run. Now, it's widely accepted that it's probably outstayed its welcome. Similarly with Law & Order.
Re motives, television, and by extension, the entertainment industry is commercial. It's hardly surprising that they have at least one eye on the balance sheet side of any or all of their output. Having said this, whilst several HBO shows have turned up in syndication, it's not a given, and probably less the norm than it would be for shows from regular networks to air in syndication. HBO programming for example would have to be (in places) heavily edited. Being ad-free, HBO shows have a duration of anything between 45 minutes to over an hour.
The problem that Lost had, was that the producers knew where to start, and they knew where to end, but realistically, not knowing how long the show would last, they didn't really know how to get there. I enjoyed the first series, then it meandered along for a couple of years, not really looking like it knew what it was doing. As soon as they imposed a finite life on it, they knew the timescales they were playing with. The season just gone, the fourth, was a vast improvement because of this new-found sense of direction. IMO at least.
Re Stahl, that's bit harsh, considering that by all accounts, he's not particularly considered to be a truly outstanding actor anyway. He's capable, and competant IMO, probably not best suited to the big screen, but I didn't see anything inherantly wrong with his performance on Carnivale. He was a decent foil for Clancy Brown's character, both enigmatic in their own way. Not entirely sure why you're namechecking Arnie, given that they were completely different roles. Surely the better choice would have been Eddie Furlong, but then, Stahl replaced him so it didn't suit your argument. Dekker, took the role in The Sarah Connor Chronicles for a number of reasons; the largest being that the John Connor of that series was a teenager. Not withstanding Stahl's inability to get away with playing a teenager these days, I doubt he was ever considered for the role to begin with. I wouldn't particularly hold up Dekker as a great example either way. Given how badly The Sarah Connor Chronicles is faring in the ratings, it's down to something, and I can't for a minute think that it's too much to do with either Lena or Summer......
As I said, I don't think he's particularly strong enough to carry a movie, certianly not a big-budget one, which is why it surprised me that he got T3, and it certainly doesn't surprise me that they went for Christian Bale in T4 instead. Having said that, I think he's more than capable of punching his own weight on the smaller screen, and he can pull of supporting roles in movies, as highlighted by his turn in Sin City.
IMO the production was over priced offering little in return. Look at the cost per episode, you've got boring repetitive sets, got expensive actors (Ok I admit the show has some very good actors but it's also blown its budget on crap actors like Stahl) you've got poor management of the writers and story, boring costume like something out of a trailer park boot sale. California is way too expensive and it cost Carnivale something like 5 million for every hour, they could have done this series anywhere and if they shot it in Nevada or Mexico or Australia I'm sure they could have cut their production costs in half. Rumor has it they refused to move location and wanted to stay as close to Los Angeles so they could to some ass sniffing with the Hollywood bigwigs and line up their next tv series.
Probably worth mentioning at this point that Carnivale picked up 5 Emmys in the first season. Oddly, one was for the 'boring' costumes. Others were for production-oriented aspects of the series; Cinematography, Art direction, etc, etc. The second season was nominated for a further 8 awards.....
Irrespective of where the show was filmed, it was, for the vast majority, shot on location, whereas most series just film predominantly on soundstages. Carnivale, looks all the better for it.
By contrast, From the Earth to the Moon, largely shot on soundstages. The effects were ok, but nothing brilliant, as would be expected considering that it wasn't a big-budget movie, just a TV-based mini series. This isn't taking into account the few scenes that they pilfered from Apollo 13.....
Rome, like Carnivale, pumped millions into getting the look of the show right, and, like Carnivale, ultimately paid the price for that look. Staggering production costs were at the heart of both cancellations.
Best thing I ever did wit the seires. 
The series was a waste of time the producers stated rubbing their palms like a Scrooge with dollar signs in their eyes, there is no conclusion. No character journey, no story conclusion, no force of darkness vs good because they were gearing up for moredollars flowing from the third
As Appy is being raped by the Tattooed Man, you can clearly hear her shouting out "JUSTIN, NO!"
