New Spider-Man cartoon: Ultimate Spider-Man

[Christopher]

Ms. Marvel has become one of Marvel's most prominent female heroes in the past few years, and has recently gotten a lot of publicity with her rebranding as Captain Marvel (which comes with a really great new costume). I read a column not long ago offering the opinion that Marvel has been trying for years to create their own version of Superman, i.e. someone with a similar power set who could play a similar role, but only recently realized they already had one in Carol Danvers.

And her debut episode (as Ms. Marvel) in Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes showed just how impressive a superhero she can be. She was really powerful and capable, and someone the Avengers would've been crazy not to want on their team, because she's arguably more powerful than any of them except Hulk and Thor. She's got a lot of potential as a character and it'll be a shame if she disappears completely when the new show replaces the old one. Ditto for Wasp, who's a really fun character.

Mainly I just don't want the Avengers to be a boys' club with a token female who doesn't even have superpowers. It's ridiculously sexist, and it's unfair to important female Avengers like Wasp, Scarlet Witch, and Ms. Marvel.

 

[Mr Light]

Is She Hulk that popular? Does she make regular appearances anywhere?

Storm is one person on a very large team. Jean's been dead for several years.

Spider-Woman, again, has not been in a starring role in a very long time, and is just one of the gang in the Avengers (Queen Veranke nonwithstanding)

 

[Admiral_Young]

I would disagree about Jessica...she's been pretty prominent in Avengers and New Avengers. Didn't the Free Comic Book Day issue use her as a POV character? Storm's been a little erratic over the years, although she's a strong presence in Uncanny X-Men and now in Brian Wood's "X-Men". You guys are forgetting Sue Storm Richards, who thanks to Jonathan Hickman's work has I think been elevated again. Emma Frost is certainly there IMO. While Jean has been dead since 2002/03 she's still very popular and fans have been wanting her return.

 

[Christopher]

The thing is, most of Marvel's prominent heroines are members of teams rather than standalone characters like Wonder Woman. It's hard to imagine Sue outside the context of the FF or Storm or Emma outside the X-Men. Ms./Captain Marvel and She-Hulk have greater solo potential.

 

[Captain Craig]

I like Black Widow as a solo lead.
I was really digging her short lived solo book from about 2yrs ago that only went 8-9 issues. Her movie mini sold incredibly well.
Marvel is using the movie as an opportunity to launch a Hawkeye ongoing they should be doing this for Natasha also.

 

[Ian Keldon]

I don't think it's fair to ding on Black Widow because she "doesn't have powers". Powers don't make the character.

And in any event, Widow has a nice "bag of tricks" to work with, including the Widow's Bite, which even up the score a bit.

 

[Christopher]

I don't think it's fair to ding on Black Widow because she "doesn't have powers". Powers don't make the character.

Again, you're incorrectly assuming I'm being hostile or judgmental toward something. I wish you'd stop doing that.

I have nothing against Black Widow as a character. I just think that if you have a team with an ever-growing number of men and only one woman, that's a disturbing enough gender imbalance to begin with, but if that woman doesn't even have superpowers and is surrounded by men who do, that carries unfortunate symbolic implications about gender imbalance. A conscientious, feminist writer like Joss Whedon can compensate for that gross imbalance of numbers and powers by, say, making that lone woman highly visible and competent and structuring the story to make her one of the prime movers of events; but there are plenty of comics or animation writers who wouldn't be so good at compensating for the ingrained sexism of the industry, especially since some of them are probably somewhat responsible for ingraining it. And if the show's developers evince no interest in adding any more female characters except "possibly" Ms. Marvel, that doesn't give me a lot of confidence in their gender attitudes.

So yeah, I am being judgmental, but not toward Black Widow. My problem is with the lack of representation for women overall.

 

[Chris_Johnston]

Since when have networks or studios cared so much about "hardcore fan backlash?"

Well, there was quite a bit of negative reaction to the whole "Teen Tony" angle of Iron Man: Armored Adventures.

 

[Captain Craig]

Since when have networks or studios cared so much about "hardcore fan backlash?"

Well, there was quite a bit of negative reaction to the whole "Teen Tony" angle of Iron Man: Armored Adventures.

True, but once you get past that the story itself is still pretty good. I really enjoyed season one.
Waiting for S2 to fully come out on DVD in one set.

 

[Christopher]

Since when have networks or studios cared so much about "hardcore fan backlash?"

Well, there was quite a bit of negative reaction to the whole "Teen Tony" angle of Iron Man: Armored Adventures.

And that show has been renewed for a third season, which proves my point that shows generally don't live or die on hardcore fan reactions alone.

 

[Christopher]

Wow, today's Venom episode realllllly overdid the whole "Spidey talking to the audience" thing. They even had him repeatedly addressing the audience as "you guys," asking us questions, etc. I thought the idea was that those asides represented Spidey's internal monologue with himself, dramatized a bit for comedic effect, but this just took it too far for me to hold onto that illusion. And it got in the way of what should've been a more serious story about Harry, his father issues, and Peter/Spidey's attempts to balance his responsibilities to his friend and his teammates.

 

[Ian Keldon]

I don't think it's fair to ding on Black Widow because she "doesn't have powers". Powers don't make the character.

Again, you're incorrectly assuming I'm being hostile or judgmental toward something. I wish you'd stop doing that.

You're the one criticizing Widow's presence on the team.

I have nothing against Black Widow as a character. I just think that if you have a team with an ever-growing number of men and only one woman, that's a disturbing enough gender imbalance to begin with, but if that woman doesn't even have superpowers and is surrounded by men who do, that carries unfortunate symbolic implications about gender imbalance.

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, Christopher. Widow doesn't NEED powers to more than keep up with the boys, never has and never will. She's one of a handful of the deadliest hand to hand combatants in the MU, and has an extensive training in weapons and tactics. On top of that she has the Widow's Bite, which can bring characters far bigger and more physically imposing than she is to their knees.

So there is no justification for painting her as some sort of "token" female presence, which is the clear implication of your original post.

And furthermore, bean-counting "we need so many men, so many women, so many [whatever]" or our team isn't properly "diverse" is what leads to exactly the sort of tokenism you seem to be decrying.

Under your system, characters don't make the roster because they are interesting and readers want to read about them, but because they "represent" diversity group A, or diversity group B, or whatever.

A conscientious, feminist writer like Joss Whedon can compensate for that gross imbalance of numbers and powers by, say, making that lone woman highly visible and competent and structuring the story to make her one of the prime movers of events;

That's the way she is in the comics as well...she's even LED the Avengers (East AND West) on a couple of occasions.

but there are plenty of comics or animation writers who wouldn't be so good at compensating for the ingrained sexism of the industry, especially since some of them are probably somewhat responsible for ingraining it. And if the show's developers evince no interest in adding any more female characters except "possibly" Ms. Marvel, that doesn't give me a lot of confidence in their gender attitudes.

Why can't you stop worrying about some imagined meta-textual implication of this inclusion or that exclusion and just enjoy the show?

 

[Christopher]

You're the one criticizing Widow's presence on the team.

I am doing nothing of the sort. I'm criticizing the lack of other women on the team. I'm happy having Black Widow around, but I would like her to have some other ladies to hang around with. I'm sure she would too.

So there is no justification for painting her as some sort of "token" female presence, which is the clear implication of your original post.

No, it's what you incorrectly inferred from my original post. If you're too stubborn to admit you misjudged my intent, that's not my fault.

Under your system, characters don't make the roster because they are interesting and readers want to read about them, but because they "represent" diversity group A, or diversity group B, or whatever.

Bull. I want characters like Wasp and Ms. Marvel and She-Hulk on the team because they are interesting. They're just as interesting as Thor or Cap and a damn sight more interesting than Hawkeye or Falcon. They deserve to be on the team, yet they're being excluded, and that suggests a gender bias that shouldn't be there.

Why can't you stop worrying about some imagined meta-textual implication of this inclusion or that exclusion and just enjoy the show?

Because if sexism keeps interesting female characters out of the show, it makes it less enjoyable. Because I enjoy women, on many levels, and so I enjoy a story that has multiple female protagonists more than I enjoy a story that only has one. Because Wasp and Ms. Marvel are two of the characters I enjoy watching the most on Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes, and I would be deprived of enjoyment if I didn't get to see them anymore.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

I want characters like Wasp and Ms. Marvel and She-Hulk on the team because they are interesting. They're just as interesting as Thor or Cap and a damn sight more interesting than Hawkeye or Falcon. They deserve to be on the team, yet they're being excluded, and that suggests a gender bias that shouldn't be there.

Actually i think they aren't using She-Hulk because she's a character on the Hulk show they are doing.

 

[Admiral_Young]

Still haven't been able to see an episode, but from what I've read and heard about Spidey's audience asides, they remind me of Zack's from "Saved by The Bell". I remember "Flintstones" and "The Jetsons" used this quite a bit too. The characters would talk for several seconds to us. Gazoo used to this a ton IRRC. I'm really curious to seeing what all the hub bub is about with this show.

 

[Ian Keldon]

You're the one criticizing Widow's presence on the team.

I am doing nothing of the sort. I'm criticizing the lack of other women on the team. I'm happy having Black Widow around, but I would like her to have some other ladies to hang around with. I'm sure she would too.

So there is no justification for painting her as some sort of "token" female presence, which is the clear implication of your original post.

No, it's what you incorrectly inferred from my original post. If you're too stubborn to admit you misjudged my intent, that's not my fault.

Then what is the point about bemoaning the (wrong) idea that she "isn't powerful enough", "can't keep up with the 'boys'", etc etc etc?

Under your system, characters don't make the roster because they are interesting and readers want to read about them, but because they "represent" diversity group A, or diversity group B, or whatever.

Bull. I want characters like Wasp and Ms. Marvel and She-Hulk on the team because they are interesting.

Wasp is at best OK...personality wise she's a bog-standard socialite only with superpowers. Ms Marvel is good, no doubt, but there are tons of other Avengers just as good if not more so, and only so many slots on the team.

They're just as interesting as Thor or Cap and a damn sight more interesting than Hawkeye or Falcon.

See above.

They deserve to be on the team, yet they're being excluded, and that suggests a gender bias that shouldn't be there.

SO are plenty of MALE characters, who would be equally good...so much for "gender bias".

Why can't you stop worrying about some imagined meta-textual implication of this inclusion or that exclusion and just enjoy the show?

Because if sexism keeps interesting female characters out of the show, it makes it less enjoyable.

Firstly, you haven't demonstrated that it's sexisim in any way. That's the problem any time the "diversity" argument crops up... people start "counting beans" and computing ratios and griping "we need more [group a]", and "we need more [groups B, C, D, and so forth]".

Secondly, the very notion that you have to have characters who are of the same group as someone in order to be "diverse" or "not racist/sexist/etc" is in and of itself a bigoted notion. Female reader/viewers can admire and look up to Cap or Thor as readily as they can Widow or Ms Marvel as role models and good characters. Only people who have bought into the "identity" philosophy of "it must look like me to represent me" get upset that there aren't x many men, y many women, and z many blacks, etc in the project.

Because I enjoy women, on many levels, and so I enjoy a story that has multiple female protagonists more than I enjoy a story that only has one. Because Wasp and Ms. Marvel are two of the characters I enjoy watching the most on Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes, and I would be deprived of enjoyment if I didn't get to see them anymore.

Feel lucky you get as much as you do...there are a lot of good characters I'd like to see that (even had the show been renewed) had ZERO chance to ever make the cut.

 

[JD]

You're the one criticizing Widow's presence on the team.

I am doing nothing of the sort. I'm criticizing the lack of other women on the team. I'm happy having Black Widow around, but I would like her to have some other ladies to hang around with. I'm sure she would too.


No, it's what you incorrectly inferred from my original post. If you're too stubborn to admit you misjudged my intent, that's not my fault.

Then what is the point about bemoaning the (wrong) idea that she "isn't powerful enough", "can't keep up with the 'boys'", etc etc etc?

What he's saying isn't that there is something wrong with Black Widow being on the team, all he's saying is that he would like to see more women on the team who have superpowers equal to what the male characters have.

Wasp is at best OK...personality wise she's a bog-standard socialite only with superpowers. Ms Marvel is good, no doubt, but there are tons of other Avengers just as good if not more so, and only so many slots on the team.



See above.



SO are plenty of MALE characters, who would be equally good...so much for "gender bias".

Because if sexism keeps interesting female characters out of the show, it makes it less enjoyable.

Firstly, you haven't demonstrated that it's sexisim in any way. That's the problem any time the "diversity" argument crops up... people start "counting beans" and computing ratios and griping "we need more [group a]", and "we need more [groups B, C, D, and so forth]".

Secondly, the very notion that you have to have characters who are of the same group as someone in order to be "diverse" or "not racist/sexist/etc" is in and of itself a bigoted notion. Female reader/viewers can admire and look up to Cap or Thor as readily as they can Widow or Ms Marvel as role models and good characters. Only people who have bought into the "identity" philosophy of "it must look like me to represent me" get upset that there aren't x many men, y many women, and z many blacks, etc in the project.

While I won't deny that you might have a good point there, people do still seem to like it when they have a hero who looks like them on the screen or on page.

 

[Christopher]

Ian doesn't have a good point at all. He's not hearing what I'm actually saying, he's just slotting me into his pre-existing stereotypes of people he has a beef with. And if he's not listening to me, I'm not talking to him. I have no desire to be insulted for something I didn't say or think.

 

[Ian Keldon]

What he's saying isn't that there is something wrong with Black Widow being on the team, all he's saying is that he would like to see more women on the team who have superpowers equal to what the male characters have.

By definition, if she can keep up with the others (and she obviously can) then her powers are equal to what they have.

While she may not have raw physical attributes that match Hulk's strength, et al, she has highly honed skills AND a bag of tricks that are more than adequate to the task.

Again, I ask, what is the problem...why is Ms Marvel supposedly superior based on her raw firepower?

I smell a bit of one aspect of JGS (Jean Grey Syndrome) at work...to wit: "with mediocre writing comes great power-ups".

While I won't deny that you might have a good point there, people do still seem to like it when they have a hero who looks like them on the screen or on page.

So do I, but I don't generally ding worthy characters that don't look like me either.

 

[Ian Keldon]

Ian doesn't have a good point at all. He's not hearing what I'm actually saying, he's just slotting me into his pre-existing stereotypes of people he has a beef with. And if he's not listening to me, I'm not talking to him. I have no desire to be insulted for something I didn't say or think.

Christopher, I showed exactly where you very much said (or at a minimum clearly implied) exactly what I said you did.

You very clearly decried having Widow on the team on the basis that she wasn't powerful enough, and couldn't "keep up".

You also made it clear that you were viewing character casting choices through a prism of sexism, to wit: there aren't more female characters, and that is prima facie evidence of sexism. You completely ignore that there are only so many slots, and choices had to be made as to which characters to use and for how long.

I get that you're a Ms Marvel fan...guess what, I am too. But unlike you I don't assume they were being sexist when they went with far more easily identifiable iconic Avengers characters over her, esp ones that brought something unique to the table.

Let's face it, Ms Marvel for all her admirable character traits, tactically and in terms of team "balance" is a bit redundant. She has no power that another Avenger doesn't at least equal if not surpass. Strength? Thor and Hulk. Flight? Thor, Iron Man, Wasp, Pym in "ant" mode. Energy blasting? Thor, Iron Man. Combat skills? Cap, Widow and arguably Thor.

Hawkeye, who you dismissed earlier, has his inhuman accuracy (witness his one shot that went THROUGH several buildings and still bulls-eye-d the target. Falcon (whom you also dismiss) has his urban knowledge, and his ability to communicate with birds (esp his falcon).