Spoilers New Picard TV Series and Litverse Continuity (may contain TV show spoilers)

[Christopher]

One obvious difference is the NX-01 had a max speed of warp 5, whereas the Discovery can be anywhere in a matter of seconds.

DSC's arbitrarily fast warp drive is one of my main annoyances, true, but that's not about design or appearance.

In fact it feels like it would be more natural as part of the Abramsverse continuity.

Doesn't work. It had a Klingon war in 2256-7, while STID is in 2259 and has Marcus fearing that a Klingon war is bound to happen eventually, but it hasn't happened yet, with only a handful of Starfleet ships having previously come under Klingon attack. Also, the Enterprise is in service in 2257, while the Kelvinprise isn't launched until 2258.

The reason it "feels" like it would fit there is because it's being made in the same decade with similar sensibilities and a few of the same creative staffers. That's not about internal continuity. There's a difference between attributes that are a function of the in-universe reality and those that are a function of real-world differences in when and by whom a story is being told. A John Byrne Superman comic looks and feels a lot like a John Byrne X-Men comic, but that doesn't make them part of the same reality.

 

[Tosk]

It's not that I don't like Discovery. I'm not ready to say I love it yet, but I find I just enjoy it better if I treat it outside the Enterprise-to-Nemesis timeline.

Which is exactly what I do. It's easier (for me) to enjoy the show if I'm not mentally trying to make things fit all the time.

 

[Damian]

DSC's arbitrarily fast warp drive is one of my main annoyances, true, but that's not about design or appearance.




Doesn't work. It had a Klingon war in 2256-7, while STID is in 2259 and has Marcus fearing that a Klingon war is bound to happen eventually, but it hasn't happened yet, with only a handful of Starfleet ships having previously come under Klingon attack. Also, the Enterprise is in service in 2257, while the Kelvinprise isn't launched until 2258.

The reason it "feels" like it would fit there is because it's being made in the same decade with similar sensibilities and a few of the same creative staffers. That's not about internal continuity. There's a difference between attributes that are a function of the in-universe reality and those that are a function of real-world differences in when and by whom a story is being told. A John Byrne Superman comic looks and feels a lot like a John Byrne X-Men comic, but that doesn't make them part of the same reality.

Right, sorry I was combining some design elements AND story elements with that.

I can use some suspension of disbelief to believe the NX-01 is in the 22nd century. But with Discovery I have to use so much suspension of disbelief that I'd probably make it a figment of my imagination to make it work.

When I was thinking of Kelvinverse I was thinking more on the production design side of things, and some of the technology they have, but storyline, yeah, that doesn't work. Oh, and the freakin window. It's one thing I hated about the Abrams movies, but they had to adopt it hear. I really hope it doesn't find it's way to the new Picard show.

I of course have made no secret I hate the Klingon design. Partly because it's so far different from their previous design, partly because, well, I just don't like it. And I'll admit, I kind of liked 80's hair band design Klingons. I still wouldn't mess with them. I grew up in the 80's so it's a bit nostalgic. So what if they looked like they'd break out at any second playing air guitar on their batleth's

 

[Damian]

Which is exactly what I do. It's easier (for me) to enjoy the show if I'm not mentally trying to make things fit all the time.

Yep. For some it's not an issue. I'm a bit of a continuity junkie, I like things to fit pretty well. I'm not obsessive. I understand the production design has to be adapted to fit with the times. But it just seems with Discovery, between the production design and story elements it's so far outside what's expected that it doesn't work in the normal continuity for me. It works better for me if I consider it some alternate reality, much like the Abramsverse movies.

 

[The Wormhole]

I'll admit, Disco's insistence on being Prime makes no real sense to me. If they were so insistent on having it be the twenty-third century, a separate and new continuity would have been a far logical approach for narrative reasons. Having it set a decade before TOS we know right away that the Klingon War won't amount to much, since both the Federation and the Klingons were a mutual threat to each other during TOS. And the spore drive will obviously be abandoned to allow for why we never hear of it again in the other shows. Now if it were a new continuity, they have the freedom to go whatever direction they want with these storylines. Not to mention you can shoot down all the complaints everyone has been making like the look being too advanced, holographic communicators, new look for the Klingons, and so on without coming up with nonsense like "visuals aren't canon" if it is indeed an all new continuity. The only reason for going Prime is because the term "Prime Universe" is apparently some kind of security blanket the Star Trek franchise can't do without. Even the franchise's one attempt at a new continuity has a convoluted story about it "branching off" from the Prime Universe which served no actual purpose aside from providing an avenue for Leonard Nimoy to make cameos.

 

[Damian]

Even the franchise's one attempt at a new continuity has a convoluted story about it "branching off" from the Prime Universe which served no actual purpose aside from providing an avenue for Leonard Nimoy to make cameos.

Yeah, that's part of it. However the intent was always to make the Abramsverse a branch off the 'prime universe'. I think part of it was probably because Orci has said he is a fan of 'all' Star Trek. So he probably wanted to preserve the original universe that he was such a fan of, but also create a new reality where they can redo one of his favorite series, the original series, but leave themselves plenty of freedom to go where they want. And by and large they succeeded.

But I remember reading Orci had not back up plan if Nimoy refused. His whole story relied on Nimoy agreeing to do it, which leads me to believe it was more than just getting him in the movie.

I liked what they did with Star Trek (2009). It's still tied to everything that came before, however loosely, making it a sequel of sorts (since Nero came from a period after Nemesis, the last time we saw the prime universe up to now). It has some elements of a prequel. While this isn't necessarily the past lives of our characters from the prime universe, it still gives us a glimpse into how they were when they started. And a reboot too since it is a new universe not beholden to what came before.

It allowed them to have their cake and eat it too. The writers got to write original stories, and they didn't have to wipe out everything that came before to do it.

 

[Christopher]

I of course have made no secret I hate the Klingon design. Partly because it's so far different from their previous design

"Design," singular? Come on. The DSC version is roughly the eighth distinct Klingon design, after Kor/Kang style, Kras/Koloth style, TMP style, TSFS style, TVH-TUC style, Michael Westmore style, and Kelvin style.

I'll admit, Disco's insistence on being Prime makes no real sense to me.

There are many things in Prime that make little sense. There are many contradictions between different versions of Trek and within any single version of Trek, and fans have spent decades arguing over them and trying to reconcile them. People always talk as if the newest version of Trek is some unprecedented departure from a previously homogeneous mass, but they're forgetting how many previous differences and discontinuities they've had to blur together in their minds to create that perception of a homogeneous mass. Remember that every new version of Trek going back to the '70s has been rejected by some fans as too radical a change from what came before. But the only difference between the newest version and all the earlier versions, as a rule, is that fandom has had more time to make up excuses and handwaves to fit the older versions together despite their contradictions.

Having it set a decade before TOS we know right away that the Klingon War won't amount to much, since both the Federation and the Klingons were a mutual threat to each other during TOS.

Aside from the magnitude and scope of the war as portrayed, I think it actually helps clarify some things in TOS. It provides a reason why the Enterprise crew are so hostile toward the Klingons, why there seems to be a grudge there more intense than their attitude toward the Romulans, say. It fits with the mention of a Klingon attack on a Federation colony years before "Day of the Dove"; Chekov imagined losing a brother in that raid, but the other characters reacted as if the raid itself were a real, known event. And so on. I do wish it had been briefer and not so sweeping in scope; that would've fit better. But it's very, very far from being the first thing in Trek continuity that's an awkward fit.

And the spore drive will obviously be abandoned to allow for why we never hear of it again in the other shows.

Again, that is not even remotely close to the first time that's happened. Trek is littered with forgotten technological revolutions and breakthrough discoveries that realistically should have been revised, retried, and perfected, but instead were abandoned without explanation. Sargon's android technology. Kironide telekinesis. Fabrini medicine. The Genesis Device. The soliton wave. DS9's first season alone introduced quick-cloning, consciousness transfer upon death, and nanites that could cure any disease or injury, which collectively should've brought immortality. And then there are the simpler things that are abandoned, like the seat restraints and security armor of the TOS movie era, which are gone by TNG. Or the uniforms with built-in heating elements in "Spock's Brain," which are completely forgotten by the movie era. Or the dozen redundant safeguards against warp-core breaches in TNG: "Contagion" that Starfleet seemed to stop using in later seasons, when warp cores breached if you looked at them funny.

 

[Damian]

"Design," singular? Come on. The DSC version is roughly the eighth distinct Klingon design, after Kor/Kang style, Kras/Koloth style, TMP style, TSFS style, TVH-TUC style, Michael Westmore style, and Kelvin style.

You know, though, I count 2 'major' Klingon designs. The original smooth headed design and the ridged head design. There are a number of changes within those scopes, yes. I attributed that to how humans look different. We don't look all alike, neither should Klingons. But they all appeared to at least be from the same species. The nu-Klingons don't match anything remotely seen before. And yes I admit, I'm biased because I just don't care for it. So that doesn't help either.

And you know, Enterprise worked so hard to explain why their were smooth headed Klingons vs. ridged. I kind of feel bad that Discovery just shot that all to Hell (I know some people eye roll that, but it was something speculated for years in novels and among fans, what was the in universe reason, and it was one of those great unanswered questions in canon that they answered, and it actually made some sense in universe). Now someone is going to have to write an episode some day explaining why Klingons looked like something HR Giger designed .

With a lot of the examples you mentioned, yes, Star Trek has added and taken away technologies. It's just I find with Discovery the sheer number of changes to design and storyline make it hard for me to see it in a prime universe context, the spore drive being the biggest. It just seems that would eventually make warp drive obsolete, and it's a huge part of the plot. I can't just dismiss it . Now I'm not ruling out the possibility that they considered this and maybe at some point we will find that the spore drive has some fatal flaw that makes it unusable. I'll have to wait and see.

 

[The Wormhole]

"Because it's been done before" is no excuse to keep doing it.

 

[Christopher]

You know, though, I count 2 'major' Klingon designs. The original smooth headed design and the ridged head design.

Yes, and the DSC version is just another variation on the ridged design. A fairly radical variation in some ways, but not much more so than the radical change between the TMP version (a single vertebral ridge down the center of a bald pate, identical for all individuals) and the subsequent version (full-forehead bony plates with a different structure for each individual or family).

And you know, Enterprise worked so hard to explain why their were smooth headed Klingons vs. ridged. I kind of feel bad that Discovery just shot that all to Hell

That's a non sequitur. Nothing in DSC precludes or contradicts the existence of the Quch'Ha. After all, it wasn't the entire Klingon population that was transformed by the Augment virus, just a few million colonists.

With a lot of the examples you mentioned, yes, Star Trek has added and taken away technologies. It's just I find with Discovery the sheer number of changes to design and storyline make it hard for me to see it in a prime universe context, the spore drive being the biggest.

Frankly, it's hard for me too. I wish they hadn't changed it so drastically. But here's the thing -- it's not about me. Canon is not about anyone's opinion; it's about what the makers of future stories choose to depict. If future creators of Trek write under the assumption that Discovery is in the same reality as every prior Trek show, then that is the way it is, no matter how many inconsistencies it introduces. The fact that an individual viewer would prefer it to be separate won't make it separate as far as future productions are concerned.

Contrary to fan belief, there has never been a guarantee that any canon would remain perfectly consistent and immune from change. The Marvel Universe is a single canon, but it constantly rewrites and updates its past so that its characters are always in their prime. The original version of Spider-Man's origin story took place in the days of print newspapers and TV variety shows; the current comics version, nominally in the same continuity, is set in the age of smartphones and social media. The canon has been rewritten and updated while pretending to be the same continuous reality. Now Star Trek is doing the same. That is just how canons work sometimes.

It just seems that would eventually make warp drive obsolete, and it's a huge part of the plot. I can't just dismiss it . Now I'm not ruling out the possibility that they considered this and maybe at some point we will find that the spore drive has some fatal flaw that makes it unusable. I'll have to wait and see.

Huh? Season 1 showed it had multiple fatal flaws. It couldn't be used without either torturing a sentient life form or conducting illegal genetic engineering. Stamets is basically the only guy who can make it work. And its continued use endangers the mycelial network and thus the entire universe. I thought it was already obvious that its use would have to be discontinued. I'm surprised they're even still using it in season 2.

 

[Damian]

Huh? Season 1 showed it had multiple fatal flaws. It couldn't be used without either torturing a sentient life form or conducting illegal genetic engineering. Stamets is basically the only guy who can make it work. And its continued use endangers the mycelial network and thus the entire universe. I thought it was already obvious that its use would have to be discontinued. I'm surprised they're even still using it in season 2.

Yes, but you'd think it would be perfected over time. By the time of TNG you'd think they have it down pat that it wouldn't require a sentient life form to use. As I said, to be fair, the series isn't over. It's possible the writers introduce something that makes it impossible to use in the future, even with improvements and modifications. The main difference I find here as opposed to other here and gone technologies is this one has persisted past just one episode or storyline. It has a very significant bearing on the ship, and the story.

That's a non sequitur. Nothing in DSC precludes or contradicts the existence of the Quch'Ha. After all, it wasn't the entire Klingon population that was transformed by the Augment virus, just a few million colonists.

I don't know, it seems all Klingons look like this in Discovery, I have yet to see any variation. Perhaps some smooth headed Klingons or Klingons that played with Guns'N'Roses will make an appearance at some point. Maybe the augment virus accidently created Giger Klingons. You never know.

Canon is not about anyone's opinion; it's about what the makers of future stories choose to depict. If future creators of Trek write under the assumption that Discovery is in the same reality as every prior Trek show, then that is the way it is, no matter how many inconsistencies it introduces.

Yeah, I realize that. Personally I find it easier just to ignore the inconsistencies at this point and treat it as a separate reality based on Star Trek. But that obviously has no bearing on the showrunners, or on anyone else. Maybe that will change at some point.

 

[Damian]

BTW, when I see the mycelial network, why do I think of metachlorians?

 

[Christopher]

Yes, but you'd think it would be perfected over time.

You could say the same about many abandoned Trek technologies. I'm talking about the excuses writers use to maintain the status quo. In real life, a technology that initially turns out badly will eventually be refined and perfected, but by the rules of fiction, a single failure of a new technology will lead to it being abandoned forever (although established technologies like transporters and holodecks will get kept no matter how many disasters they cause). Why should we expect spore drive to be treated any differently from soliton propulsion or transwarp or any of the other abandoned experimental drives we've seen over the history of the franchise?

I don't know, it seems all Klingons look like this in Discovery, I have yet to see any variation.

We have never seen any variation in Klingon design within a single incarnation of Trek, except for "Trials and Tribble-ations" and "Affliction"/"Divergence." Each version of the Klingon makeup is always the only one we see in that particular production. But we've spent decades pretending that the different versions coexist even though we never see it.

Yeah, I realize that. Personally I find it easier just to ignore the inconsistencies at this point and treat it as a separate reality based on Star Trek. But that obviously has no bearing on the showrunners, or on anyone else. Maybe that will change at some point.

Dream on. Ever since TMP, there have been fans determined to treat the newest incarnation as a separate, incompatible reality, and it never has been.

 

[Damian]

You could say the same about many abandoned Trek technologies.

The main difference here is the persistence of the tech. It doesn't seem to be going anywhere, and it's a huge plot point of the entire show at this point.

Dream on. Ever since TMP, there have been fans determined to treat the newest incarnation as a separate, incompatible reality, and it never has been.

Yes, I know. That's why I say it's a personal choice right now. I know it has 0 bearing on anyone else. When I said maybe it would change, I just mean for me personally. Maybe something changes that helps me see the show in a different light at some point. But that too would be personal to me. But I know that does not matter to anyone else.

I guess a better way to put it is I enjoy Discovery more if I don't bother with mental acrobatics trying to think of it as a show that takes place between Enterprise and the original series.

 

[David cgc]

The main difference here is the persistence of the tech. It doesn't seem to be going anywhere, and it's a huge plot point of the entire show at this point.

Radium paint didn't seem to be going anywhere for a while, too. They were still using radium to make watch-hands glow in the dark into the 1960s. You wouldn't say you'd think "using radioactive paint as a light source" would be perfected over time. It's just not feasible. There are better ways to do it.

Likewise, Stamets is the only person in the universe (heck, in two universes) who can operate a spore drive. They can't repeat the procedure that gave him the ability (legal and ethical concerns notwithstanding) without another tardigrade, of which they have found one, and if they can communicate amongst themselves, well, Ripper didn't have the best time in our quadrant, so I doubt any more will be showing up. That could well be that. Once Stamets is gone, the spore drive becomes a novelty, a way to move a starship a distance of its own length, or an incredibly impractical long-range transporter (based on the prototype in the Stamets comic), and not actually useful. It could take more like a thousand years than a hundred to artificially replicate what Stamets and the tardigrade did to make it work, especially without a model, and that's assuming anyone cares enough to take another whack at it after the project was cancelled, crated, and forgotten. We already saw that exact thing happen in the novelverse with the metagenome. It solved the Andorians' problems in no time, but no one had known to look, or that there was even something to look for.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Again, that is not even remotely close to the first time that's happened. Trek is littered with forgotten technological revolutions and breakthrough discoveries that realistically should have been revised, retried, and perfected, but instead were abandoned without explanation. Sargon's android technology. Kironide telekinesis. Fabrini medicine. The Genesis Device. The soliton wave. DS9's first season alone introduced quick-cloning, consciousness transfer upon death, and nanites that could cure any disease or injury, which collectively should've brought immortality. And then there are the simpler things that are abandoned, like the seat restraints and security armor of the TOS movie era, which are gone by TNG. Or the uniforms with built-in heating elements in "Spock's Brain," which are completely forgotten by the movie era. Or the dozen redundant safeguards against warp-core breaches in TNG: "Contagion" that Starfleet seemed to stop using in later seasons, when warp cores breached if you looked at them funny.

None of those technologies instantly render two entire spin-off series' moot.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

None of those technologies instantly render two entire spin-off series' moot.

The wish to avoid risking destroying the entirety of reality?

 

[Christopher]

The main difference here is the persistence of the tech. It doesn't seem to be going anywhere, and it's a huge plot point of the entire show at this point.

It's a plot point that's had its obsolescence clearly built in, though, due to the numerous moral, legal, and practical problems with making it work on a continuing basis. It seems quite obvious to me that the writers' intent is that those feasibility issues will not be solved and that will be the explanation for why the tech is abandoned. Heck, I'm frankly a bit shocked that they're still using it in season 2 after Stamets discovered that its use could destroy the multiverse. That alone should've killed it forever.

None of those technologies instantly render two entire spin-off series' moot.

Of course they do. Kironide telekinesis alone should've radically transformed all of civilization from the late 2260s onward. Discovering immortality and cures for all disease and injury in DS9's first season should've radically transformed all subsequent storytelling (think how easy it would've been to prevent Jadzia's death or grow Nog's leg back, for instance).

And then there are the unexplored potentials in technologies they already have. Transporters should render all other surgical techniques obsolete. The use of transporters to de-age people as seen in "The Lorelei Signal" and "Unnatural Selection" (or re-age them in "Rascals") could be adapted as a form of immortality in itself, or a way to instantly cure any disease or injury by merely resetting someone's transporter pattern to a healthy version. On the flipside, the transporter is a devastating disintegrator ray if you just leave out the rematerialization stage. We've seen that it's far easier to dematerialize an entire shuttlecraft (Voyager often casually beamed shuttles into the shuttlebay) than it is to disintegrate one with a phaser, so why even bother with phasers?

So as much as we want the Trek universe to be plausible and consistent, the fact is that we can't expect any kind of logical progression of technology in the franchise. We never could.

 

[Damian]

It's a plot point that's had its obsolescence clearly built in, though, due to the numerous moral, legal, and practical problems with making it work on a continuing basis. It seems quite obvious to me that the writers' intent is that those feasibility issues will not be solved and that will be the explanation for why the tech is abandoned. Heck, I'm frankly a bit shocked that they're still using it in season 2 after Stamets discovered that its use could destroy the multiverse. That alone should've killed it forever.

Ok. Maybe that will become more clear as I get further along in watching Discovery. It's not yet totally clear to me yet at this point that it has that fatal flaw. Major flaws, yes, and it's done something weird to Stamets (I just finished the first mirror episode), but have not yet seen how that can't be overcome with perfecting the technology so it's not harmful. But that may yet come.

BTW, I'm curious how they are going to explain how Kirk and co. had no knowledge of the mirror universe and Terran Empire now (in story that is, is it highly classified like Talos IV, did the Discovery crew hide the info...I figure they opened a fairly large plot hole that will have to be closed in some fashion).

 

[DGCatAniSiri]

Admiral Cornwall explicitly declared the knowledge of the Mirror Universe highly classified when Discovery returned - as pointed out by Stamets, particularly in the wake of the war, learning that there was another universe where your loved ones still lived risked people actively trying to cross over, even without getting to things like the Terran Empire.