Sci
You forgot about Destiny - 3 books, the greatest event in trek lit from the last few years:
60 billion federation citizens dead. 50% of starfleet destroyed.
Genocide porn.
The tone of these books makes battlestar galactica's look positively cheery.
As you are, apparently, counting - these are 3 immense 'LOSS LOSS LOSS' for the federation.
You're shifting the goal posts now. We were talking about previous depictions of cold wars in
Star Trek, and you claimed that the Federation/Typhon Pact cold war is worse than the one seen on TV between the Federation and Klingons, or its Romulan and Dominion counterparts, because on TV, the Federation wasn't being "kicked in the balls." Thus,
Destiny is irrelevant to the question, since it takes place before the formation of the Typhon Pact and does not involve any Federation/Typhon Pact cold war.
Also, it's not genocide porn, and that terms if frankly offensive. Pornography is about trying to titillate, to glorify one particular aspect of life above others. In no way does the
Destiny trilogy glorify or treat as a good thing genocide, which is what that phrase implies. I'm sorry if you didn't like
Destiny, but to accuse it of glorifying genocide is rude at best and dishonest and offensive at worst.
A singular destiny - draw? The formation of the adversarial typhon pact
There you go again with the mindset that the Pact is inherently adversarial, that the existence of the Pact must inherently represent a loss for the Federation rather than only representing a loss for the UFP if hostile factions assume power in the Pact. That's a very ethnocentric POV.
was counterbalanced by what, exactly?
Doesn't need to be counterbalanced by anything. The formation of the Typhon Pact is neither a gain nor a loss for the Federation.
And apologising doesn't bring back the dead/repair the damage the tholians and kinshaya have already done.
1. The Tholians' damage was superficial and reversed quite easily, and its perpetrators by Starfleet and Federation police departments.
2. No, it does not bring back the Klingon dead. Neither would a Klingon apology bring back all the Kinshaya who died when the Klingons committed genocide by annihilating the Kinshaya homeworld. Sometimes in international relations, two cultures have to set mutual atrocities committed between themselves aside and move forward if they want a better future for both of themselves.
Zero sum game - it is directly established there is a cold war between the typhon pact and the federation (as in, no peaceful competition, which was an alternative the previous book established).
Yes,
Zero Sum Game -- and do recall that in proper English grammar, novel titles are italicized, not bolded -- establishes that anti-Federation factions have achieved enough influence within the Pact that a
de facto state of cold war has been achieved. Given as how I was literally keeping score in my previous post, I considered that to be a given.
It is directly established the romulans have cloaking tech that enables them to go anywhere within the federation undetected, giving them a gigantic strategical advantage - for example: espionage missions, devastating first strike capabilities, etc.
Fair enough! I'd forgotten about the scene that establishes that the Romulans have developed phase cloak technology -- partially because the UFP certainly takes it in stride and doesn't seem to regard it as being as big of a security threat as losing its monopoly on slipstream. Possibly because the Federation had literally developed phase technology 30 years beforehand. But we'll up anti-UFP Typhon Pact score from 3 to 3.5. (Why 3.5? Beyond the fact that it's questionable how big a threat a 30-year-old technology is, because the new moderate Romulan government generally doesn't seem interested in that kind of stuff.)
It is directly established starfleet is in massive inferiority to the typhon pact and the only thing preventing the federation from being overrun in 6 months is slip-stream.
Uh, no, it's not.
Bashir is depicted horribly out of character.
Yes, and the price of tea in China is just
terrible, isn't it?
Whether or not you think Bashir was well-written has nothing to do with whether or not
Zero Sum Game can be fairly said to depict the Federation as being kicked in the balls.
Seize the fire - didn't read this book.
I didn't, either, but since I wanted to evaluate your claim that the Federation was getting "kicked in the balls" in every episode dealing with the UFP/Typhon Pact cold war,
I looked up its synopsis. I am happy to report that in no way is it reasonable to describe its events as "getting kicked in the balls."
Rough beasts of empire - IRS - half the romulan empire - (in formerly friendly relations with the federation) joins the typhon pact
Yes -- and then the RSE is taken over by a new government that's about as friendly towards the UFP as Donatra was. So from a purely utilitarian POV, really, either result benefits the Federation.
Unless you think that it's best for the Federation when every other culture is broken and divided and unable to function. But that's Henry Kissinger
realpolitick thinking -- hardly the sort of bright, optimistic message a
Star Trek novel should be sending!
Legalising the unification movement has the potential to result in vulcan seceding from the federation.
Maybe. It also has the potential to result in Romulus requesting to join the Federation.
And since it's clear that Spock is still loyal to the Federation and regularly passes them information, I'd consider the possibility of Vulcan seceding as a result of the Unification movement to be a small but acceptable risk for the sake of having a friendly Romulan faction.
Sisko and Spock depicted horribly out of character.
Again, your opinion on how well-written the characters are is irrelevant to whether or not the Federation is "kicked in the balls" in every story about the UFP/Typhon Pact relationship.
Paths of disharmony - the andorians decided to leave the federation in a democratic referendum.
In the current blurbs, it's established that andor joined the typhon pact,
1. If you've read enough books, you know full well you cannot rely on blurbs to give you accurate details about the contents of a book. Blurbs are like movie trailers -- they're there to get you to read the book, but not always reliable.
2.
If Andor joins the Typhon Pact? That's not in
Paths of Disharmony. If it happens, it will happen in a book that has yet to be published. I was evaluating the events of
Paths of Disharmony, not a book I literally cannot read yet.
which is in a state of cold war with the federation - meaning that andor, far from being sympathetic to the federation or even neutral, chooses, of its own accord, to be an enemy of the federation.
You have a very "us vs. them" mindset when it comes to the UFP, don't you? Very George W. Bush. "You're either with us, or you're against us."
What if the new Andorian Presider's attitude is more, "You know, I'm pissed at the UFP, but the Typhon Pact needs more moderate voices. If we join the Pact, we can veto any factions in the Pact that are pushing for hostilities with the Federation while also strengthening the Pact and making Andor more secure. We'll make the Pact, the Federation, and Andor all more stable and secure that way. Let's do it."
What if the Andorian goal is literally to push the Typhon Pact into a less hostile direction and end the cold war that way? It's not like it's in Andor's best interests to have hostilities commence between the Pact and the UFP when Andor's just a few lightyears from Earth. If Andor joins the Pact, it's in Andor's best interests to push it into a moderate, peaceful direction -- not to be an enemy.
In the book, it was directly established that the federation had the means to save the andorian species - the taurus reach data.
It was directly established in the book that Akaar and others within starfleet/the federation knew of the existence of the taurus reach data and its potential from the beginning.
No, it was not. If you'll recall, Crusher's attempts to research the data being given to her by an Andorian doctor who was being fed Taurus meta-genome (TMG) info by the Tholians led to a Federation classified computer system AI realizing that someone was looking up TMG info. That AI had TMG data removed from a repository on Luna and delivered to Admiral Akaar. Akaar then gave the information to President Bacco. And then, just a few hours later, the Tholians revealed the info themselves, and Andor began the process of secession.
Bacco and Akaar had literally only just gotten the info and realized its potential to help the Andorians when the shit went down.
The struggle within - whatever happened with the kinshaya did not in the least change the cold war status between the federation and the typhon pact
"In the least?" Really? The new blurbs feature joint Federation/Romulan exploration missions. Sounds like things may have changed a little bit to me.
And, again, the question is not, "Did this book BRING GALACTIC PEACE AND COOKIES TO EVERYONE?" The question is, "Is the Federation being kicked in the balls in every UFP/Pact story?"
The answer for
The Struggle Within is: No.
The Starships Enterprise and her sister ships have been fighting sinister enemies bent on causing galactic mayhem literally since "Where No Man Has Gone Before" - but only recently were their crews utterly incapable of thinking outside the box - beyond 'dying with dignity', that is.
And only recently did someone far less powerful than some of the beings previously encountered killed 60 billion federation citizens with the utmost ease.
And this negates exacly what from my previous post?
First off, you're not giving the full context of that particular aspect of the debate.
Full context:
a new (and at the same time old) enemy causing mayhem in the galaxy (again, expressly mentioned in the first titan blurb, only alluded to in the current one),
Oh, big fucking deal. That line could mean any damn thing, and it's no more evidence of dystopianism than similar blurbs for the
Gateways crossover were. The Starships
Enterprise and her sister ships have been fighting sinister enemies bent on causing galactic mayhem literally since "Where No Man Has Gone Before" -- and that's assuming, again, that that blurb isn't an exaggeration of some sort.
The Starships
Enterprise and her sister ships have been fighting sinister enemies bent on causing galactic mayhem literally since "Where No Man Has Gone Before" - but only recently were their crews utterly incapable of thinking outside the box
False. "Where No Man Has Gone Before" literally features Spock telling Kirk to kill Gary Mitchell before Mitchell has indicated any desire to harm anyone. "The Cage" literally features Captain Pike realizing that the only way to escape the Talosians is to embrace blind, primitive rage.
STAR TREK certainly has a lot of "we may be enemies today, but we can work this out and have peace." It also has a lot of "kill them now." And if anything, those
Typhon Pact blurbs -- talking about the Praetor and Bacco trying to bring about peace -- make it pretty clear that the "we can work this out and have peace" theme will be ongoing.
In other words: In response to the
Titan blurb mentioning a new galactic menace, you tried to claim that this is something new and dystopian in
Star Trek fiction. I pointed out that
Star Trek has featured the crews fighting galactic menaces since the beginning. You seemed to be complaining about them fighting bad guys instead of having peaceful relationships, and I pointed out that almost from the first episode, they've been fighting bad guys and not cultivating peaceful relationships. I'm sorry, but Spock deciding to kill Gary Mitchell right then and there is not "thinking outside the box" -- that's very much thinking inside the box, by reacting to a new development as a threat instead of an opportunity. (As it turns out, Spock was right about Mitchell, sure -- but what about Dehner?)
And if anything, those Typhon Pact blurbs -- talking about the Praetor and Bacco trying to bring about peace -- make it pretty clear that the "we can work this out and have peace" theme will be ongoing.
The DRG3 2nd blurb explicitly says the attempts to bring 'peace' failed, and, by the time of the second DRG3 book, said leaders are desperately trying to prevent a shooting war
Yes, in the same sense that the attempt to bring about a Federation/Klingon peace treaty had failed during the scene immediately after Kirk was arrested in
Star Trek VI. Do recall that this blurb is advertising the second half of a single story, so naturally it's going to advertise the development that happens in the first half to give the second half a sense of danger and of high stakes. It's not going to tell us the complete story about where things end.
If you were to break up
Star Trek VI, you might easily make a blurb for a second half that says, "The Klingon Chancellor is dead, assassinated by Starfleet officers while suing for peace. Captain Kirk has been arrested, and Captain Spock must search for a traitor aboard the
Enterprise." Sounds pretty dark, doesn't it? You might even claim that such a blurb "explicitly says that attempts to bring about peace have failed." But, of course,
Star Trek VI ends with a Federation/Klingon peace treaty in spite of the bad things that happen in the middle of the story. So we shouldn't assume anything until we get to the end of
Raise the Dawn, 'kay?
Plus - I see how much support that moderate romulan praetor (installed by the federation-hating tzenkethi, masters of manipulation and prediction, to serve their interest) has. How much real power the pro-peace faction within the typhon pact has.
No, you don't. There's been nothing published one way or the other establishing how much power the new Praetor really has -- except insofar as literally all her political enemies were manipulated into defeat before she took office.
And remember, the Tzenkethi's only real interest is stability, not war.
Those blurbs tell us the premises of their books. They do not tell us the CONTENTS of those books. They don't tell us how they end. How they END will be what determines whether or not the TREK books are "dark."
No, Sci. What the books contain (not merely their end) determines whether they will be dark.
So a book that begins in tragedy but ends in happiness does not count as a comedy in the classical sense of the term, to you? It's still a tragedy, no matter what else happens in it?
But either way -- those blurbs don't really tell us those books' contents.
Great analysis,
Sci, thank you.
Thank you much.
Now, what Mack did there was a risk, because that does involve discarding some of the straightforward optimism on the level of the setting, if not the theme - ie, it means wrecking paradise a bit. I understand that this will alienate some fans. But through paradise getting trashed we saw the ultimate reaffirmation of the saint - and it is the saint that is the truly important part, the real soul of Trek's message. The true meaning of Trekmas, children, is not the nicely wrapped gifts but the kindness and spirit and effort that went into making them
.
Exactly! Frankly, I think that their reaction to
Destiny proves that some fans weren't really into
Trek for its depiction of a human spirit that stays true to its ideals even in the face of mortality, that embraces compassion over strife, unity over division, freedom over tyranny. They liked
Star Trek because it depicted a future in which humanity was rich and powerful, and all of its enemies were weaker. Suddenly,
Destiny depicts humanity as no longer being as rich and as powerful, and then
Typhon Pact depicts others as being just as rich and powerful, and that's unacceptable. To them,
Star Trek's optimism lay in its power fantasies, not in its moral vision -- take away the power fantasy of humanity as the undefeatable superpower, and suddenly
Trek loses its appeal. They liked the Trekmas presents more than the spirit that went into making them.
).
