And yet we saw complaints that "Paths of Disharmony" spent too much time with Picard and Bev playing happily families, Geordi and Worf seeking new romances, and Andorians bickering with each other.
There was minimal Typhon Pacting going on.
New blurbs for Raise the Dawn, Fallen Gods, and The Eternal Tide
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And yet we saw complaints that "Paths of Disharmony" spent too much time with Picard and Bev playing happily families, Geordi and Worf seeking new romances, and Andorians bickering with each other.
There was minimal Typhon Pacting going on.
The Trek universe does seem to be littered with ruins from ancient civilizations, either because of the Manraloth's Great Experiment or MAD wars. I enjoy the worldbuilding when writers discover these new races.
There's a quote circling about the Internet, someone arguing that the Trek universe is grim: all these ruins of ancient civilizations with powerful technologies and easy transcendence and a terrifyingly high rate of catastrophic failure.
It's not that grim if you consider the great swath of time over which these ruins accumulated. I mean, everyone who ever lived prior to, say, the late 1800s is dead now, but that doesn't mean they all led miserable or violent lives. A lot of them had long, happy, comfortable lives. But those lives still ended eventually. Even in the happiest, least grim eras of history, nobody lived forever.
And for every planet full of devastated ruins, there's a superrace that rose to a higher level of existence. There are simply so many civilizations in the Trek universe, past and present, that even if only a small percentage suffered catastrophic fates, there'd still be plenty of ruins here and there.
There's also the inevitable selection bias of a fictional adventure series. For all we know, Starfleet may come across plenty of ancient worlds that didn't suffer any kind of catastrophe or devastation, but their surveys aren't exciting enough to tell stories about.
Hence why I put "speculation" in there. Having a little bit of fun. Nothing wrong with that.
Yevetha
Commodore
What were the MAD wars?
WHERE MAD PEOPLE FOUGHT ALL IN CAPS.
He probably means Mutually Assured Destruction, referring to various wars where both sides wiped each other out (like Sargon and Henoch's people, for instance).
Just read the blurbs. I guess based upon the DS9 synopsis we know the theory that the Pact isn't necessarily aggressive or adversarial isn't true. It looks like like they have galactic domination plans.
These three books should be good reads, can't wait to read a little more about Andor's succession from the Federation in Fallen Gods.
Yevetha
Commodore
Thanks, now i get it.
And just because a civilization falls, it doesn't necessarily follow that the people/race/species ends up extinct.
Rome fell long ago. There were (and are) are plenty of surviving Italians. There are still people in South/Central America who claim Mayan/Aztec/Inca ancestry. People still live in Egypt, despite the lack of Pharaohs. . .
Rome fell long ago. There were (and are) are plenty of surviving Italians. There are still people in South/Central America who claim Mayan/Aztec/Inca ancestry. People still live in Egypt, despite the lack of Pharaohs. . .
If the Roman Empire and its enemies had nukes, believe me they'd have all been wiped out and Earth would still be recovering.
But we're not talking about the fall of the civilization, we're talking about the entire species being eliminated through war or some other means. How many civilizations do you think fell in the Delta Quadrant during the Q civil war when several stars went supernova? That could have wiped out billions of people and left ruins on planets beyond the complete destructive range of the supernova (say if there was a colony/civilization several AUs from the star).
I can't wait for these books myself either. Another great year of so many good books and continuing storylines. There has been no word on the TNG trilogy yet?
Assuming Type II supernovae, the average distance at which a planetary biosphere would be sterilized is c. 8 parsecs according to one paper I've read, although it could be greater or lesser depending on the size of the star. So typically any planet closer than 25 light-years, give or take, would be doomed unless it was advanced enough to erect some sort of shielding. And of course it would take a comparable number of years after the supernova before the damage was done, unless we assume some kind of subspace effect that propagates FTL, like that implicit in the supernova that destroys Romulus in 2387. Given that the Q Civil War took place in 2373, about a decade before the "present" of the novel continuity, it might be that much of the damage you're talking about still lies in the (relative) future.
I thought I read somewhere that were our sun to go supernova, or just prior to doing so (relatively speaking) the sun would expand to several times its normal size and everything out to about Jupiter would be destroyed or irradiated. It's that expansion I was referring to. I just assumed (either rightly or wrongly) that the event was a part of the early stages of a star going supernova (or nova?).
It's impossible for the Sun (or any single star less than 9 times the Sun's mass) to go supernova. The Sun will expand to a red giant when it leaves the main sequence, but will gradually cast off its outer layers to form a planetary nebula, leaving its expended, degenerate core as a white dwarf. So "not with a bang, but with a whimper."
Type II supernovae are preceded by an expansion phase when helium burning begins in the core, but that lasts on the order of a million years before the star begins to evolve toward supernova. If the Q were causing otherwise normal giant stars to go supernova with just a few hours or days of warning, there wouldn't have been enough time for much expansion of that type. And even if there had been, the supernovae themselves would've caused immensely more devastation than what you're talking about.
A nova, since you asked, is something completely different -- it's basically the phenomenon Dr. Stubbs was studying in TNG: "Evolution," where a white dwarf or neutron star in a binary system draws enough hydrogen from its companion onto its surface to reach sufficient density for a fusion chain reaction, causing a vast eruption of light and radiation. Normally, as in "Evolution," this is a periodic process, repeating every so often, but if the explosion is large enough, it can destroy the star system; this is called a Type I supernova.
No, I am not. Let's examine the full context of the conversation:
As you can clearly see, this is not true. You claimed that the Typhon Pact/Federation cold war featured in the Typhon Pact novels is dystopian while the various Federation cold wars featured in TOS, TNG, and DS9 were not because the ones featured in the canon "did not feature the federation being kicked in the balls in every dedicated episode." Note the bold: "Every dedicated episode."
To evaluate your contention that the Typhon Pact/Federation cold war is more dystopian than the Fed/Klingon, Fed/Romulan, or Fed/Dominion cold wars, thus, I examined the "dedicated episodes" -- the six novels that have featured the Federation/Typhon Pact relationship.
You then countered by trying to cite Destiny. But Destiny is inapplicable to the claim that the Federation/Typhon Pact cold war is dystopian where canonical Federation cold wars were not, because the Typhon Pact did not exist yet in Destiny. Citing Destiny to support a claim about the Typhon Pact/Federation cold war is about as sensible as citing "The Cage" to support a claim about the Federation/Klingon cold war. Destiny is not a "dedicated episode."
No, that was a separate topic in our conversation. You were talking explicitly about whether or not the Typhon Pact/Federation cold war is dystopian compared to the Federation cold wars featured in the canon, and supported your claim that it is by claiming the Federation "gets kicked in the balls" in "every dedicated episode." I then examined whether or not it is fair to say that the Federation has been "kicked in the balls" in every "dedicated episode." I concluded that it is not.
Now, if you want to jump tracks back to the larger question of whether or not Star Trek novels lately have been dystopian, hey, fine. And Destiny would not be an inherently invalid piece of evidence regarding the larger direction of the Trek novel lines. But Destiny is completely inapplicable to the question of whether or not the Federation is always kicked in the balls in Typhon Pact novels.
And nothing about Destiny sought to "satisfy an excessive desire for something." The Borg's acts of genocide were not depicted as something we would or should want, but as horrible acts that were undertaken by an artificial intelligence that had become warped beyond recognition, the AI equivalent of severely mentally disturbed.
And as rfmcdpei has pointed out, by your logic, no one would ever be able to tell a story about a catastrophe without being accused of engaging in "genocide porn."
That is a deeply nationalist argument. It operates on the a priori assumption that if foreign nations unite, this inherently makes their union a threat, and it does so without seeking to justify that assumption.
Adversarial/Cold war, remember?
You are simply wrong: The formation of the Typhon Pact is neither a gain nor a loss for the Federation, and the argument that it constitutes a loss is an inherently jingoist, nationalist argument.
The Typhon Pact is a threat to the Federation if those factions of its member states who favor hostility -- the Tholian Ruling Conclave, the Breen government, the Romulan expansionist factions -- achieve political power within the Pact and then use it to mobilize against the Federation. The Typhon Pact is a boon to the Federation if those facts of its member states who favor peace -- the Kinshaya and/or Breen dissidents, the new Romulan Praetor, the Gorn government -- achieve political power within the Pact and use it to solidify their pro-peace position.
The Typhon Pact, at the end of the day, is just a tool of its member states. The question is, who amongst its member states will hold sway?
That quote -- even the bolded part -- says nothing about "being overrun." "Becoming a second-rate power" doesn't mean the UFP is overrun -- it means it becomes something like the Ferengi Alliance, or Talarian Republic, or Tzenkethi Coalition: A state that is no longer the dominant power in the quadrant. The Federation is competing for power, not its existence.
And nothing in that quote establishes that the Federation is "in a massive inferiority."
1. You may recall that in my post, I happily conceded that I had forgotten about the Romulan phase cloak.
2. Yes, Akaar gives a worst-case scenario speculation in that single line. Then in the rest of the novel, the possibility of an impenetrable Romulan phase cloak is utterly ignored, and the issue is not followed up upon in any subsequent Typhon Pact novels. This is why I argued that the Federation doesn't seem to regard the Romulan phase cloak as being as big of a threat as you do; I then suggested some possibilities for why it may not regard it as being as big of a threat. And indeed, I happen to think that if the Romulans are using the same kind of cloak the Federation developed thirty years earlier, that implies that this is a manageable threat.
As a result, I stand by the conclusion about Zero Sum Game which you contested: The Federation is not "kicked in the balls." It gets hurt, and then it hurts the other side back, creating a draw.
We're getting off the topic of whether or not the Typhon Pact novels depict the Federation getting "kicked in the balls in every dedicated episode." But to quickly leave that topic for a moment: Your assertion is questionable. In NEM, Shinzon's Romulan backers only seem to become aware of his plan to use the Scimitar's thalaron weapon against all life on Earth during the comm link they initiate with him to complain about his games with Picard. They pretend to be placated with his promise to "cripple the Federation," but then immediately declare that he's insane once the comm link is closed, and Donatra argues that he must be stopped. So whether or not Tal'Aura actually supported Shinzon's plot against Earth is ambiguous at best.
Now, returning to whether or not it is accurate to characterize the Federation as getting "kicked in the balls in every dedicated episode" of the Federation/Typhon Pact cold war, thus rendering the Federation/Typhon Pact cold war dystopian:
Which is a separate topic than what we were discussing: Whether or not the Typhon Pact series depicts the Federation being "kicked in the balls" in "every dedicated episode" about the Federation/Typhon Pact novel.
As I said before, we have no idea what context that so-called "failed peace" occurs in, nor how it is resolved. You're attempting to quote a blurb that's describing a situation as it exists in the middle of an incomplete story, which renders the blurb's status as an accurate description of how things all work out highly dubious. For all we know, Book II may end with the revelation that the Danteri Empire had been trying to manipulate the Typhon Pact and Khitomer Alliance into a firefight and the leaders of both alliances joining forces to thwart them, and then declaring undying peace! So it's just not reasonable to cite a blurb about the situation in the middle of a story as evidence about how much support the Kamemor administration or pro-peace Typhon Pact factions have.
rfmcdpei said it perfectly in his post, so I'm just going to quote him:
In other words: Yes, that data was classified. No, no one alive in Starfleet knew they were withholding relevant data from the Andorians until the classified data cache was delivered to Akaar as triggered by Crusher's search. The computer programs designed to prevent that data from getting out were written a century earlier, and the withholding was happening automatically. The Andorians then decided to secede before President Bacco could do anything about the data Akaar gave her.
I stand by my analysis of your argument. You've been starting a presumption of hostilities and then moving on from there. You rejected offhand the notion that the creation of the Typhon Pact need not automatically be seen as a threat to the Federation, and you reject with no support the idea that Andor might moderate the Pact. You start from the presumption that the Pact is the enemy, and anyone who has anything to do with the Pact is the enemy. It is a fundamentally nationalist, jingoist argument, very much a argument that boils down to "you're either with us or you're against us." This is a completely fair analysis of your argument.
ETA:
In any event, I would say that your assertion that the Federation is depicted as being "kicked in the balls" in "every dedicated episode" of the Federation/Typhon Pact cold war, thus rendering the UFP/TP cold war more dystopian than the UFP/Klingon, UFP/Romulan, or UFP/Dominion cold wars featured in the canon, has been thoroughly refuted. The Federation has taken some hits and licked its wounds, it has hit back and made the Pact lick its wounds, and it has also watched the Pact fight amongst itself. All in all, the Federation is doing okay, but it needs to continue thwarting the hostile factions in the Pact and encouraging the moderates. And in no way is the Federation/Typhon Pact cold war more dystopian than the canonical ones -- it's LESS dystopian, I would argue, in fact, since we've seen moderate factions within the Pact from the start, whereas we only gradually (later on in the relevant cold war arcs) learned about the moderate factions within the Klingon, Romulan, and Dominion cultures.
Excellent summation.
Exactly. A hundred years ago, Britain was the dominant power in the world, but after WWII it became secondary to the United States. Yet Britain still exists (and so does its Commonwealth, though it's a shadow of the former Empire) and is an ally of the US.
More to the point, one could argue that America's current status as the sole superpower on Earth may not endure indefinitely, as China becomes increasingly powerful economically and culturally. We're not in danger of extinction, but there is the possibility that our global leadership role could be overshadowed by someone else, just as Britain's was overshadowed by us. And since ST has always reflected real life to an extent, we're now getting stories where the Federation faces the same prospect.
Indeed. It's startling that anyone would think the situation with the Pact is worse than the situation with those other powers. The audience's awareness of the Klingons began with a shooting war that was only stopped by Organian intervention, and we know there was combat between the UFP and Klingons before then, plus we saw a lot of skirmishes and starship clashes between the UFP and Klingons in subsequent years despite the treaty. The Romulans have been shown trying to start wars with Earth and the UFP on multiple occasions, and we know they succeeded the first time, drawing humanity into its first real interstellar war (since one ship vs. the Xindi doesn't really count as a war). And the Dominion -- good grief, the Dominion infiltrated and invaded the quadrant and put the Federation in greater existential danger than any prior threat, wreaking devastation exceeded only by the Borg in Destiny. So these are all conflicts that go well beyond cold war into hot war, open violence, and sometimes extensive devastation. Heck, even the Cardassians waged an on-and-off border war with the Federation for over a decade and had a longstanding hostility toward it.
Now look at the Typhon Pact by comparison. In the two years or so of its existence, we've seen a smattering of acts of sabotage, a couple of brief starship clashes, and a couple of acts of political manipulation, one of which succeeded in triggering the peaceful secession of a Federation member (although that secession was largely due to internal stresses that already existed within Andorian society). That's trivial compared to the damage done by the Dominion or the Romulans, and substantially less than that done by the Klingons or Cardassians.
Earlier in the thread someone was saying that the Andorians will join Typhon Pact, which I don't think we even know is 100% at this point, as an agressive move against the Federation. Now I still haven't gotten to the point in PoD where they leave the Federation, but based on what's been said on the boards, and what I have read so far, I'm thinking that the reason they might join is simply because the TP helped them, when in their minds the Federation didn't. Sure they might have been pissed at the Federation, but I don't see them suddenly turning on them. I really think if it does happen, it'll be more of a "they helped us when you didn't, so we're joining up with them", not a " you didn't help us, so now we're joining your enemies so we can destroy you" situation.
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