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Re: Never seen TOS scenes...
Never seen TOS scenes, but would've been nice...
- Thread starter Warped9
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Re: Never seen TOS scenes...
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Re: Never seen TOS scenes...
Okay. Are you actually crying?
Okay. Are you actually crying?
Re: Never seen TOS scenes...
Love it!
Love it!
Re: Never seen TOS scenes...
I think what he was saying was that the reasion the horizon line seems off is because that the station is built near the edg of a cliff.
If you look closely you can see the line where the cliff would drop off. This is why the perspective seems off when it isn't really.
I think what he was saying was that the reasion the horizon line seems off is because that the station is built near the edg of a cliff.
If you look closely you can see the line where the cliff would drop off. This is why the perspective seems off when it isn't really.
Re: Never seen TOS scenes...
Hmm. How do I NOT get into this argument again? You know the one that distinguishes betwen enhancement and revisionism? I already had a near heart attack earlier when I saw someone had grafted Archer's head onto a WNMHGB uniform.
I imagine the distinction is that some changes are founded on the idea of celebrating TOS and the great ideas already inherent in it while others are to show that TOS was crap and cheap looking and can only be fixed if made to look more contemporary like, oh, I don't know...like ENT.
Hmm. How do I NOT get into this argument again? You know the one that distinguishes betwen enhancement and revisionism? I already had a near heart attack earlier when I saw someone had grafted Archer's head onto a WNMHGB uniform.
I imagine the distinction is that some changes are founded on the idea of celebrating TOS and the great ideas already inherent in it while others are to show that TOS was crap and cheap looking and can only be fixed if made to look more contemporary like, oh, I don't know...like ENT.
Re: Never seen TOS scenes...
You are right, I have been looking at that shot all these years and never noticed that feature. That does make a big difference.
You are right, I have been looking at that shot all these years and never noticed that feature. That does make a big difference. 
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Re: Never seen TOS scenes...
Okay, first of all your perspective grid is not accurate. I've included a correct grid which actually demonstrates that the perspective in the original is technically correct, which is a surprise because it always bugged the hell out of me. I think there is a slight optical illusion happening in the original, thanks to the structures sitting on a cliff, plus the domed buildings appear tilted (until you apply the grid). I know that I am not the only one who has cringed at this painting due to what appears to be incorrect perspective. Obviously now that I've applied the grid to my revision, I admit lowering the horizon line threw the perspective off somewhat. But the motivation here was to fix what was clearly a problem with the layout of that painting. I think my revision accomplished that pretty well, although as before I never claimed that it fixed all of the problems.
Correct Perspective
Okay, first of all your perspective grid is not accurate. I've included a correct grid which actually demonstrates that the perspective in the original is technically correct, which is a surprise because it always bugged the hell out of me. I think there is a slight optical illusion happening in the original, thanks to the structures sitting on a cliff, plus the domed buildings appear tilted (until you apply the grid). I know that I am not the only one who has cringed at this painting due to what appears to be incorrect perspective. Obviously now that I've applied the grid to my revision, I admit lowering the horizon line threw the perspective off somewhat. But the motivation here was to fix what was clearly a problem with the layout of that painting. I think my revision accomplished that pretty well, although as before I never claimed that it fixed all of the problems.
Correct Perspective
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Re: Never seen TOS scenes...
Also, the original painting is actually not entirely accurate in that the tall building doesn't line up with the perspective grid in places (particularly the middle piece). Note how the sections of the building aren't lined up with the grid. I think this is the one real technical blunder of the artist, although as before I think there is an optical illusion happening in the overall layout. As an artist, sometimes you have to bend the rules of perspective once in a great while in order to make it look right, and I definitely think he should have moved things around a bit. Geez, maybe somebody should just re-create it from scratch??
Also, the original painting is actually not entirely accurate in that the tall building doesn't line up with the perspective grid in places (particularly the middle piece). Note how the sections of the building aren't lined up with the grid. I think this is the one real technical blunder of the artist, although as before I think there is an optical illusion happening in the overall layout. As an artist, sometimes you have to bend the rules of perspective once in a great while in order to make it look right, and I definitely think he should have moved things around a bit. Geez, maybe somebody should just re-create it from scratch??
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Re: Never seen TOS scenes...
Erm, you know, I'd hate to sound arrogant again, but they do line up rather nicely in my grid. Also, it may be due to resolution, but I can't find out which lines in the painting are supposed to line up with the perspective lines you drew.
Granted, my choice in lines is rather arbitrary, as the lines in question may not have been intended to be parallel to each other, but the fact that the lines all cross at a point only slightly higher than the horizon seems to contradict that.
I don't know. I love the TOS matte paintings, because they're the part of the show that doesn't look dated at all.
Also, keep in mind that matte artists are often limited by the requirements of the filmmakers. The odd perspective probably wasn't the artists' choice at all.
A cgi re-creation would be fun, but is hard to get right (as Enterprise has shown us repeatedly now)
Erm, you know, I'd hate to sound arrogant again, but they do line up rather nicely in my grid. Also, it may be due to resolution, but I can't find out which lines in the painting are supposed to line up with the perspective lines you drew.
Granted, my choice in lines is rather arbitrary, as the lines in question may not have been intended to be parallel to each other, but the fact that the lines all cross at a point only slightly higher than the horizon seems to contradict that.
I don't know. I love the TOS matte paintings, because they're the part of the show that doesn't look dated at all.
Also, keep in mind that matte artists are often limited by the requirements of the filmmakers. The odd perspective probably wasn't the artists' choice at all.
A cgi re-creation would be fun, but is hard to get right (as Enterprise has shown us repeatedly now)
Re: Never seen TOS scenes...
The buildings may not have been intended to all line up. And there is also the possibility that the base is constructed on a smaller world than Earth and that could also skew the perspective.
Cgi a new image from scratch? What the hell for? There's nothing essentially wrong with the existing image as it is. The only thing I could see adding perhaps would be an indication of motion with a ground vehicle or a shuttlecraft or air vehicle flying through the scene. The existing image effectively conjures the concept of an alien world that is definitely not ours while the new image fails that utterly.
The buildings may not have been intended to all line up. And there is also the possibility that the base is constructed on a smaller world than Earth and that could also skew the perspective.
Cgi a new image from scratch? What the hell for? There's nothing essentially wrong with the existing image as it is. The only thing I could see adding perhaps would be an indication of motion with a ground vehicle or a shuttlecraft or air vehicle flying through the scene. The existing image effectively conjures the concept of an alien world that is definitely not ours while the new image fails that utterly.
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Re: Never seen TOS scenes...
Exactly. Another reason might be that cgi makes it easy to make still shots of the same scene from entirely different angles.
With that in mind, it's easy to understand why recent Trek has gone for CGI instead of far better-looking matte paintings.
It's not really a problem, as long as it's done well. The flyover of the Romulan Senate in Nemesis (yes, Nemesis) was very well done, as can be seen here:
Romulan Senate 1
Romulan Senate 2
(both images are from Section 31)
However, Enterprise's disastrous attempts at doing the same leaves me to suspect that CGI matte takes a lot more effort than 'normal' matte paintings.
Exactly. Another reason might be that cgi makes it easy to make still shots of the same scene from entirely different angles.
With that in mind, it's easy to understand why recent Trek has gone for CGI instead of far better-looking matte paintings.
It's not really a problem, as long as it's done well. The flyover of the Romulan Senate in Nemesis (yes, Nemesis
) was very well done, as can be seen here:Romulan Senate 1
Romulan Senate 2
(both images are from Section 31)
However, Enterprise's disastrous attempts at doing the same leaves me to suspect that CGI matte takes a lot more effort than 'normal' matte paintings.
Re: Never seen TOS scenes...
^ The Romulan Senate just reminded me of playing MYST!
^ The Romulan Senate just reminded me of playing MYST!
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