Nemesis

[Amaris]

^ Yeah, the promotion was terrible. I do have to say that after all these years, my stance on Nemesis has softened considerably. It's still among the bottom movies on my Star Trek list, but I can find parts of the movie that are good, and I remember them fondly.

 

[BillJ]

I think all you have to do is compare Nemesis to Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country to see where the biggest problem lies...

The actors in Nemesis seem tired and uninterested in the characters they're portraying.

Add to that the movie is just plain dark and I don't mean the story... it seems like the color palette of the film was limited to gray, brown and black then the weird sepia toned excursion on the planet where they find B-4. The film just wasn't interesting visually.

Then you really had some lazy writing on this movie... either focus the story on the Picard clone or on the Data clone but not both. One just served as an unsatisfying filler to the other.

 

[JarodRussell]

I think all you have to do is compare Nemesis to Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country to see where the biggest problem lies...

The actors in Nemesis seem tired and uninterested in the characters they're portraying.

Add to that the movie is just plain dark and I don't mean the story... it seems like the color palette of the film was limited to gray, brown and black then the weird sepia toned excursion on the planet where they find B-4. The film just wasn't interesting visually.

Then you really had some lazy writing on this movie... either focus the story on the Picard clone or on the Data clone but not both. One just served as an unsatisfying filler to the other.

Good point. That's another thing I noticed. The entire movie feels depressing. And that was even intended! On the behind the scenes stuff on the DVD Stuart Baird says that he asked Goldsmith to make the score more weary and sad, for example. I also get the impression that all of the actors look very old and tired (which they don't in real life or in the previous movies).

 

[Saito S]

I think all you have to do is compare Nemesis to Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country to see where the biggest problem lies...

The actors in Nemesis seem tired and uninterested in the characters they're portraying.

Add to that the movie is just plain dark and I don't mean the story... it seems like the color palette of the film was limited to gray, brown and black then the weird sepia toned excursion on the planet where they find B-4. The film just wasn't interesting visually.

Then you really had some lazy writing on this movie... either focus the story on the Picard clone or on the Data clone but not both. One just served as an unsatisfying filler to the other.

Good point. That's another thing I noticed. The entire movie feels depressing. And that was even intended! On the behind the scenes stuff on the DVD Stuart Baird says that he asked Goldsmith to make the score more weary and sad, for example. I also get the impression that all of the actors look very old and tired (which they don't in real life or in the previous movies).

Some eyebrow-raising complaints here, for me personally anyway. I have my store of problems with Nemesis, and consider it one of the sub-par Trek films (though not as bad as TMP or TFF for my money); it's one of the more egregious offenders among Trek films as far as sheer number of gaping plot holes, it had a terrible villain, etc etc.

But... "too dark?" Seriously? It didn't come off as any more "dark" to me than TWOK, and frankly, for all of NEM's shortcomings, I didn't feel this artificial, heavy-handed "Look! DARK THEMES and VIOLENCE and ETC!" sense that I got from TWOK. Now, this is a matter of "feel" to a large degree I think, so if others really feel that NEM was significantly darker/more depressing than TWOK, or than Trek "should be", then so be it. I really don't see it, though. I will also note that someone upthread (GalaxyX, I think?) said that the dark nature of TWOK's ending is negated by TSFS. I don't think that's fair; TWOK's dark feel, including Spock's death at the end, should be considered on its own merits, the same as NEM's (especially when you consider that at the time, as I understand it, the intention was for TWOK to be the last movie, and for Spock to STAY dead).

As for the actors, I didn't feel that was a big problem either, other than Tom Hardy, who did put in a lackluster performance (though it's hard to say how much of that was his actual acting ability, and how much of it was poor direction; Baird was - by most accounts - an awful choice for this movie on a number of levels). From the main cast, I didn't see any particular drop-off in quality or enthusiasm. On the contrary, there were some great pure character moments in the movie, which were among the film's good points (but were not nearly enough to save the whole product in the end).

I thought the film was visually excellent... for the most part. The effects were great, the Ent-E looked sharp, and the outer space shots were very nicely done. The Scimitar internals, however, looked very dull and predictably "bad guy ship" to me. I liked the weird color tone on the planet where they found B4; it made it feel very alien. That whole sequence had other problems, mostly conceptual ones. While I'm here, tho: the Argo I never had a problem with either. Again, there were many conceptual aspects of that whole sequence that were just broken, but the vehicle itself has never bothered me.

I LOVED the openeing, with the cool music and the slow zoom into that spectacular shot of Romulus (though reversing the letters in the title was pretty silly). I didn't find the score "weary", just very serious in tone, which I didn't have a problem with (it's still up with my favorite Trek scores).

And the ending, I felt, wasn't depressing. Sure, the ship got trashed, but we see it in spacedock at the very end, being repaired... that final visual didn't strike me as "depressing" in any way. And while the Data/B4 storyline had a LOT of problems, I did like the little bit at the end. It's been estalished that B4 simply doesn't have the capability to just "be" Data. But by downloading all of this information, Data at least has given him a chance to be more than he was, and perhaps, with Data's death, some small part of him will live on in B4. This is what I saw at the end, with the ready room scene and B4 singing. Again, a lot of the plot leading up to this was riddled with problems, but that moment was, I felt, a good Trek moment and one of the film's (few) really excellent scenes.

The one thing said above (and others have mentioned these problems; I quoted only these two posts for simplicity) that I agree with wholeheartedly is the comment that the film has "some lazy writing"... that is quite an understatement. In addition to a weak story and bad directing, letting Spiner and Stewart have as much say as they apparently did in the writing of their characters... yeah, not such a hot idea. Seriously, you guys are fantastic actors... please stick to acting.

 

[Admiral_Young]

My previous comment was in reference to the lack of promotion really. The theater my best friend and I were in was filled on opening day. I don't remember seeing that many ads or posters on buses or really TV spots for "Nemesis". There are a lot of factors that are responsible for why "Nemesis" bombed and wasn't received well. All of these are probably why there isn't any one reason.

 

[GalaxyX]

(GalaxyX, I think?) said that the dark nature of TWOK's ending is negated by TSFS. I don't think that's fair; TWOK's dark feel, including Spock's death at the end, should be considered on its own merits, the same as NEM's (especially when you consider that at the time, as I understand it, the intention was for TWOK to be the last movie, and for Spock to STAY dead).

Yes it was me, and I do think it is fair, because they should have learned their lesson not only with TWOK (and the huge backlash it caused to kill Spock, to the point that they spent the entire 3rd movie correcting their mistake), but also with Generations and the death of Kirk.

There may be die-hard fans who enjoy character deaths (because it makes it feel more like real life, or some nonsense like that). But I'd be willing to bet the the general public wants to go see an upbeat movie where a victory truly is a victory, and just not a defeat renamed to one.

 

[RAMA]

(GalaxyX, I think?) said that the dark nature of TWOK's ending is negated by TSFS. I don't think that's fair; TWOK's dark feel, including Spock's death at the end, should be considered on its own merits, the same as NEM's (especially when you consider that at the time, as I understand it, the intention was for TWOK to be the last movie, and for Spock to STAY dead).

Yes it was me, and I do think it is fair, because they should have learned their lesson not only with TWOK (and the huge backlash it caused to kill Spock, to the point that they spent the entire 3rd movie correcting their mistake), but also with Generations and the death of Kirk.

There may be die-hard fans who enjoy character deaths (because it makes it feel more like real life, or some nonsense like that). But I'd be willing to bet the the general public wants to go see an upbeat movie where a victory truly is a victory, and just not a defeat renamed to one.

To be fair the producers meant for Spock to stay dead.

Where've you been galaxyX?

RAMA

 

[Saito S]

(GalaxyX, I think?) said that the dark nature of TWOK's ending is negated by TSFS. I don't think that's fair; TWOK's dark feel, including Spock's death at the end, should be considered on its own merits, the same as NEM's (especially when you consider that at the time, as I understand it, the intention was for TWOK to be the last movie, and for Spock to STAY dead).

Yes it was me, and I do think it is fair, because they should have learned their lesson not only with TWOK (and the huge backlash it caused to kill Spock, to the point that they spent the entire 3rd movie correcting their mistake), but also with Generations and the death of Kirk.

There may be die-hard fans who enjoy character deaths (because it makes it feel more like real life, or some nonsense like that). But I'd be willing to bet the the general public wants to go see an upbeat movie where a victory truly is a victory, and just not a defeat renamed to one.

The reasons why someone might appreciate ("enjoy" really isn't the right word) a character death are far more complex than your "nonsense".

But what the general pubic may or may not want has nothing to do with what I was saying.

We are not the general public, we are Trek fans, and decently "hardcore" ones since we're here on this message board. The issue is whether or not Data's death in NEM, and the scenes at the end of that movie following his death, are significantly darker or more depressing than Spock's death in TWOK, and the scenes at the end of that movie following his death. And when examining that issue, TSFS is irrelevant.

And besides... ok, so seeing a movie that ended on a generally "good" note is what the public wants to see. Even if that's true, and even if it WERE relevant to what I was saying, consider this: what would Paramount have lost by NOT making TSFS at all? There's no risk to not doing a third movie (and thus leaving Spock dead); TWOK had already been made, and Spock's death didn't stop it from being a generally successful movie, critically and financially. TWOK was intended to be a single follow-up to TMP, and then that was going to be it; no more movies were planned. The public didn't just go "You killed Spock, we want him back!", they also said "We want more Trek!" The former would not have been enough on its own for them to make another movie. If the decision to make more Trek hadn't been made, Spock WOULD have stayed dead. And that decision was made in large part BECAUSE TWOK was received so positively; again, Spock's death didn't have a negative effect on the popularity of the movie.

But that remains a tangent I indulged in for curiosity's sake; what the general audience wants still has nothing to do with the point I was trying to make, which was that Data's death is no more "dark and depressing" than Spock's in their respective movies.

 

[Herkimer Jitty]

A lot is being said about "what could have been" with TWOK. As it is, it DIDN'T end up being the sendoff for TOS, so the comparison is irrelevant. TUC ended up taking that role. They blew a bad guy up in that movie too. And you know what? It was a real victory. They didn't just blow up the bad guy, but they won another fight, too. There was a clear victory that wasn't just a military outcome. They didn't win because they killed the bad guy - that was only a factor in their victory. It's important I mention that, because the movie was based on an idea. Not a idea for a plot, but an idea for a story.

What did Nemesis have? The destruction of the Scimitar and the death of Shinzon was a clear physical victory, but what else was gained, specifically for the characters, or for the audience? It has always been unclear to me what Nemesis is supposed to be about, aside from "change and stuff, lol" and "I'm a mirror for you, lol". It's made to look like Shinzon and B4 serve some purpose other than furthering the plot, but whatever purpose they serve for furthering the ideas behind the movie, whatever they may be, is unclear to me.

 

[Danoz]

Nemesis was a dark, depressing movie and the characters didn't make any sense. That's why it bombed. It should have never gotten off the drawing board, and I am shocked so many actors went along with it. Brent Spiner wanted to be killed off because he didn't like how he looked in the makeup as an older man... really? Some major problems with Nemesis:

• B4, obviously. We didn't learn our lesson about picking up random android pieces and reassembling them? Really? We're going to do a Data clone episode and not mention Lore?
• Picard clone: Really? Forget that Riker was cloned in a transporter accident, now the first three in the chain of command have clone stories. Awesome.
• Picard actually loves off-roading in unsafe vehicles.
• Worf: Apparently he is back? This is fine, but some explanation would be nice.
• Shinzon: This character doesn't make any sense. He's either mind-raping, obsessing over Picard or trying to complete his mission (which... was?).

Yeah, can't do this anymore. I can suspend my level of belief to enjoy most things, but Nemesis was such a slap in the face to TNG I have trouble giving it any credit. It was a bad, bad movie in every way. The first three were all fun and entertaining, but unfortunately, there's no more TNG-era movies to be had .

 

[GalaxyX]

To be fair the producers meant for Spock to stay dead.

Where've you been galaxyX?

RAMA

Hey man. Haven't been frequenting too often, but I still pop in here and there

The reasons why someone might appreciate ("enjoy" really isn't the right word) a character death are far more complex than your "nonsense".

But what the general pubic may or may not want has nothing to do with what I was saying.

We are not the general public, we are Trek fans, and decently "hardcore" ones since we're here on this message board. The issue is whether or not Data's death in NEM, and the scenes at the end of that movie following his death, are significantly darker or more depressing than Spock's death in TWOK, and the scenes at the end of that movie following his death. And when examining that issue, TSFS is irrelevant.

And besides... ok, so seeing a movie that ended on a generally "good" note is what the public wants to see. Even if that's true, and even if it WERE relevant to what I was saying, consider this: what would Paramount have lost by NOT making TSFS at all? There's no risk to not doing a third movie (and thus leaving Spock dead); TWOK had already been made, and Spock's death didn't stop it from being a generally successful movie, critically and financially. TWOK was intended to be a single follow-up to TMP, and then that was going to be it; no more movies were planned. The public didn't just go "You killed Spock, we want him back!", they also said "We want more Trek!" The former would not have been enough on its own for them to make another movie. If the decision to make more Trek hadn't been made, Spock WOULD have stayed dead. And that decision was made in large part BECAUSE TWOK was received so positively; again, Spock's death didn't have a negative effect on the popularity of the movie.

But that remains a tangent I indulged in for curiosity's sake; what the general audience wants still has nothing to do with the point I was trying to make, which was that Data's death is no more "dark and depressing" than Spock's in their respective movies.

Ok then, let's take it in chunks. First let's talk about the general public.

The general public liked TWOK because it was made like a slightly lower budget action film. We get the set up where the villain shows up, does some dastardly deed, and escapes by stealing a vehicle from the good guys. Then the hero pieces together the puzzle, chases after the villain, and they duke it out mano a mano (High Noon style). The villain is defeated and the hero is victorious, but sometimes at a heavy cost, and this idea is intertwined heavily with the ending scenes.

This seems like a pretty generic plot when you think about it. Probably every 80's Arnold/Stallone flick follows this formula.

What made it sell in the case of TWOK though? I believe it was the acting of the main characters, particularly the villains. As we all know, a superhero can only be as good as the supervillains he fights. Ricardo Moltalban played Khan with such realism, that he became his character. The things he said and did resonated with pure vengeance toward Kirk. He was willing to torture innocents (I still cringe at the ear bug scenes) and to kill them.

The other thing that worked in favor of TWOK was the musical score. It sounded like naval warfare, all thoughout. It went along great with the whole "submarine fight" angle. It had the right mystical sound when it was needed, and it had the right amount of tension at the right parts.

These are all subconscious things that most of the public won't "know" they are looking for, but when they are there, they give the movie a "thumbs up".

The fact that the movie was nice to Trekkies by giving us a bit of continuity (picking up from Space Seed. Showing us how Kirk's life of being a bold and dashing buccaneer is now starting to catch up with him, etc. etc) was simply icing on the cake to an already well made story.


Nemesis on the other hand, tried to copy the pattern of TWOK, but missed on practically every single nuance of the original. Kirk is a fighter, and he was afraid that Khan could outfight him. Shinzon is just a whiny bitch of a kid who got his hands on superduper weapons.

Speaking of superweapons, the whole fanboyish idea of the Scimitar was laughable (22 something torpedo launchers? 58 phaser banks?)

Anyway, in what psychological way was Shinzon a menace to Picard? If I understood the movie correctly, it was supposed to be the fact that Picard was afraid he would have become Shinzon if he had let such a hard life.

I think this fails right away because anyone in their right mind knows that your life is what shapes you. Picard certainly would have become Shinzon were he in the same shoes. So the first idea the movie tries to convey is shot down right there.

Even if Picard is unsettled by the idea, how exactly is this a major threat to him? Khan by himself was scary, and with the small Reliant took on the mighty Enterprise and almost won the battle.

Shinzon is only "scary" because he's got a superdooper ship with all its guns pointed at you. A 2 year old would be scary if he grabbed a loaded handgun and started pointing it at people.

Picard would probably feel confident (and rightly so) that he could outsmart this crybaby and pull him away from the trigger.

Kirk and Khan never actually meet face to face, and for half the movie Kirk isn't even aware of Khan at all. When they do meet up, it's pretty much mind on mind action.

Shinzon? Not so much. He presents himself to the crew in a very "dramatic" way (make sure the lights are off, then "slooowwly brighten them up.....") only to show us a character which insulted our intelligence. He looked nothing like Picard, sounded nothing like Picard, and frankly looked ridiculous in that costume he was wearing. Then they sit around for 1hr of movie time doing nothing but discussing the "situation" with Picard. Then we learn he's dying and needs Picard's blood to survive, so, why the waste of time then? You had a supership staring at the Enterprise the whole time! Why not just blast away?

And who could forget the cringe worthy wedding scene? Which was only there to make fun of our favorite characters. Picard looks embarrassed giving his speech, then makes comments about "going to the gym" to be ready for the nude reception on Betazed. Data sings a tacky song. Worf gets drunk, again.

And the dune buggy scene to introduce us to B4. It seems to me this was a lot of filler because they didn't have an actual story that could fill 2hr of movie time.

Then of course the end battle. There aren't any strategic moves as in TWOK. No near misses, no suspense! It's just 2 ships shooting each other point blank until one goes down. It would have been the Enterprise if the Romulans hadn't lent a hand. And do they send a couple of the majestic D'eridex cruisers? Nope. They send these little anemic skinny birds of prey. Might as well have been seagulls of prey.

The music is horrid. It bores you to sleep. It's all tribal drums and shit. Not suspenseful at all. The lighting is horrid, and the ending with Data's "courageous" (and stupidly contrived) death and the aftermath is so depressing, that it puts the final nail on the coffin for this movie, no matter how many times they show B4 whistling blue skies.

 

[Saito S]

Dude what

Ok... I don't even know what to make of that huge post, which had almost nothing to do with what I was saying. I say "almost", because there is this at the very end:

and the ending with Data's "courageous" (and stupidly contrived) death and the aftermath is so depressing, that it puts the final nail on the coffin for this movie, no matter how many times they show B4 whistling blue skies.

and this:

The villain is defeated and the hero is victorious, but sometimes at a heavy cost, and this idea is intertwined heavily with the ending scenes.

Those are the ONLY things you said that even touched on my point, and even then, you still haven't addressed the point directly: in what way was Data's death in NEM significantly MORE depressing/dark than Spock's death in TWOK? Not "which was more well done", not "which movie was better"... just the death.

Is the second part I quoted supposed to BE the reason? You feel TWOK did what you said there, and that NEM didn't? Technically, NEM did the same thing, but is it "more depressing" because it simply wasn't done as well?

I will note that if the answer were to be something like that, or essentially something that amounts to "Because it was in a better movie", I'd be fine with that. I don't personally think TWOK is really any better than NEM overall (neither is among the better Trek movies IMO), but if someone did think that (as many here do), and made the statement "Spock's death was less depressing because it was in a movie that didn't suck", I'd accept that. The matter of which character death was more or less depressing is going to be largely feel and subjective analysis anyway, so saying that Spock's was better because "at least he went down in a better film" is an understandable sentiment.

But you haven't said that. You haven't said much at all about why you think Data's death and the ending to NEM were significantly more depressing than Spock's death and the ending to TWOK. Instead, you've gone off on a tangent about why TWOK is great and NEM sucks, which is not what this thread is really about. I don't even like TWOK, and don't agree with half of what you said; Montalban's acting was hardly "realistic", nor was Shatner's (they both hammed it up way too much if you ask me), and I thought the movie had a dreadfully boring and at times cheesy musical score, while I think NEM's score is one of the best in all of Trek. Speaking of music:

The music is horrid. It bores you to sleep. It's all tribal drums and shit. Not suspenseful at all.

Tribal drums?? Do you perhaps mean... bass drums? As in, those big drums orchestras use?

Seriously, the only track in the entire score that could be construed to have "tribal drums" (and I wouldn't call them that myself, but whatever) is the opening theme.

I do agree on some of your points on Nemesis (aside from the music of course, and the wedding scene, which I liked)... in fact, I have brought up some of those very points myself in earlier posts, and I never even claimed it was a good movie! So really, I have no idea what that huge post was supposed to get across, nor has the only point I was making been addressed.

 

[Aldo]

I figured I'd chime in on Data's death, since that seems to be the current topic of discussion in this thread.

I do feel Spock's death was done better, but I won't cop out and say "because it was in a better film." In fact there are lots of things I like about Nemesis, but I just feel Data's death was tacked on to add dramatic weight to a film that really had none.

Perhaps what I'm trying to say is that Spock's death was integrated into the film in a much better way than Data's, there is a great build up as Genesis is about to detonate, we see all the character's reacting to the fact that they may not make it out alive. Sulu's line of "We're not going to make it our we?" Then Kirk looking at David and David with that grim look on his face really sells the danger our crew is in.

With Nemesis it's just another doomsday device that's about to go off, a scenario that we've already seen play out two other times in TNG film series.

Then we have the ending of both films, Spock's death, while tragic, is discussed by the crew "He's not really dead as long as we remember him" line from McCoy is heartfelt and optimistic, it makes us the viewers feel optimistic as well (disregarding the fact that he returns in the next film). With Data we get a brief scene of all the characters remeniscing about him but the emotions don't really feel real...then the film pretty much ends. I think had the film ended with the ending that was cut (Picard meeting the new first officer, and them heading out to a new adventure) Data's death would have been a bit more palpable, because you have that optimistic ending that mirrors TWOK.

 

[Too Much Fun]

I was watching "Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan" once and I got so involved in the story that I totally forgot about what Spock does at the end. I was just enjoying it and finding it really fun and exciting and then all of a sudden it happened. This was a movie that I had mostly appreciated for being entertaining and then suddenly it became poignant too.

That's one of the big differences between the two movies. Star Trek II already had a lot going for it without the death, and I think might have still been a good movie without the death (it didn't necessarily need that extra bit of drama, but of course it was a positive addition).

I agree with the previous post that "Star Trek: Nemesis" just didn't have much going for it and the death was the only way it could have even slightest bit of power. It worked on me when I saw the movie as a teen, but now I realize what a lazy, ineffective, desperate attempt to give the movie some extra punch it was. "Tacked on" is the right term.

With the first Star Trek sequel, the death at the end made a fine movie even better. With "Star Trek: Nemesis" it only managed to save a thoroughly uninspired movie from being completely forgettable...but it's not memorable in a good way.

That's the problem - the producers/writers never realized that the death isn't what made "Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan" great, it was the cherry on top of everything else that came before and fit into the story organically.

 

[GalaxyX]

But you haven't said that. You haven't said much at all about why you think Data's death and the ending to NEM were significantly more depressing than Spock's death and the ending to TWOK. Instead, you've gone off on a tangent about why TWOK is great and NEM sucks, which is not what this thread is really about. I don't even like TWOK, and don't agree with half of what you said; Montalban's acting was hardly "realistic", nor was Shatner's (they both hammed it up way too much if you ask me),

It's hard to put into words about the acting. I agree that Shatner and Montalban hammed it up, but the style worked for them (more for Montalban than Shatner I would admit though).

As far as the music, the trumpet fanfare was pumping along with the battle scenes, and I thought that freakin' made the movie. For Nemesis it was just a bunch of orchestral drumming and soft sounding brass, like glenhorns and tubas. Particularly there was no melody that stood out for me. So it wasn't "tribal" but it was what I would expect to hear in a drama, not an action flick.

And as far as the actual deaths. Spock's was far more chilling. He, in a split second, decided that he had to die to save the ship. He kicked his way into the warp chamber, and slowly sacrificed himself while his friends stood there watching, powerless to do a damn thing about it. Then we get a couple of minutes of good byes. We get to see Spock tell Kirk "I have been and shall always be, your friend".

Afterwards we get a proper ending, with a proper burial and ceremony for Spock. We get to see them grieve for their friend. And then we get to see them slowly put it behind them and look toward the future, a future possible for them because of the sacrifice of their friend. And before the credits, we are left with...possibilities. We get a wink that in the ST universe, anything can happen, even bring back someone from the dead.

In Nemesis, we get: Data jumping over to the Scimitar. He runs over to Picard, out of the blue surprises him by transporting him away, and he blows up the ship. We get a scene where Picard comes back and nods negatively to the crew about Data coming back. We get a meeting in the ready room where Riker can't even remember what tune Data was whistling when he first met him. Then we get to see B4, acting like the retard he is, but then he sings a bit of "Blue Skies" and suddenly Picard is much more upbeat for some reason (why, because he feels some of Data lives on in the, to the audience, already contrived B4?)
And end credits!!! Whoever approved this movie needs a crowbar to the head.

 

[Amaris]

For me, it's all about the tone of the movie and their respective endings.

In TWOK, the tone is about aging, facing one's past, getting past the bad blood and focusing on the possibilities of a bright, new future. The aging moments are morose, the facing of one's past and getting past the bad blood are dynamic, and the bright future is bittersweet and hopeful. It was very well executed, and I say this as someone who doesn't list TWOK near the top of his list at all.

In NEM, you can see where they try to do the same thing, but it's all disjointed. There's no real connection to time passing by, the bad blood is completely contrived and comes from nowhere. I mean, TWOK had a history with the villain and there was an understanding, a depth to the betrayal. In NEM, it was cut from whole cloth. The sacrifice scene is telecast from a light year away, the last 20 minutes screams "SACRIFICIAL SPOCK-LIKE ENDING AHEAD!!", but it's only a mere shadow of that well executed scene from TWOK. It's wholly contrived, completely setup so obvious and ham handed, that it takes away from Data's sacrifice, which could have been bittersweet and epic. Instead, I was disappointed. To me, that is the difference between the two movies.

Edit: I agree with GalaxyX.

 

[GalaxyX]

For me, it's all about the tone of the movie and their respective endings.

In TWOK, the tone is about aging, facing one's past, getting past the bad blood and focusing on the possibilities of a bright, new future. The aging moments are morose, the facing of one's past and getting past the bad blood are dynamic, and the bright future is bittersweet and hopeful. It was very well executed, and I say this as someone who doesn't list TWOK near the top of his list at all.

In NEM, you can see where they try to do the same thing, but it's all disjointed. There's no real connection to time passing by, the bad blood is completely contrived and comes from nowhere. I mean, TWOK had a history with the villain and there was an understanding, a depth to the betrayal. In NEM, it was cut from whole cloth. The sacrifice scene is telecast from a light year away, the last 20 minutes screams "SACRIFICIAL SPOCK-LIKE ENDING AHEAD!!", but it's only a mere shadow of that well executed scene from TWOK. It's wholly contrived, completely setup so obvious and ham handed, that it takes away from Data's sacrifice, which could have been bittersweet and epic. Instead, I was disappointed. To me, that is the difference between the two movies.

Edit: I agree with GalaxyX.

And I completely agree with you my man

That was exactly the problem. With TWOK we weren't comparing anything. Sure it has its problems, but it doesn't have pointers all over the place to them. The writers understood how to make the most out of their story. The revenge angle definitely had depth to it. It didn't matter even if we didn't know why, but we felt it. We knew instinctively that "holy shit! that guy wants to tear Kirk up a new one!"

Nemesis made a freakin' point of proudly declaring that it was a TWOK clone. So we subconsciously got a checklist of the good stuff in TWOK and the bad stuff in TWOK, and checked off practically every badly executed rip off from Nemesis. Frankly it just needed to get completely away from ripping off a TOS movie. What would have worked better would have been to follow up on one of the good TNG episodes. I would have loved to see a follow up of "Time's Arrow", or "Relics" on the big screen. Even a follow up to "Contagion" would have made some epic story that would write itself.

Even as Nemesis stands though, I would forgive it all if they just hadn't killed Data.

 

[Amaris]

And I completely agree with you my man

That was exactly the problem. With TWOK we weren't comparing anything. Sure it has its problems, but it doesn't have pointers all over the place to them. The writers understood how to make the most out of their story. The revenge angle definitely had depth to it. It didn't matter even if we didn't know why, but we felt it. We knew instinctively that "holy shit! that guy wants to tear Kirk up a new one!"

Nemesis made a freakin' point of proudly declaring that it was a TWOK clone. So we subconsciously got a checklist of the good stuff in TWOK and the bad stuff in TWOK, and checked off practically every badly executed rip off from Nemesis. Frankly it just needed to get completely away from ripping off a TOS movie. What would have worked better would have been to follow up on one of the good TNG episodes. I would have loved to see a follow up of "Time's Arrow", or "Relics" on the big screen. Even a follow up to "Contagion" would have made some epic story that would write itself.

Even as Nemesis stands though, I would forgive it all if they just hadn't killed Data.

I remember promoters talking about Shinzon being the next "Khan" for Picard, and that the movie would be "just as action packed" as TWOK. To me it felt like what party leaders do when they're trying to make a candidate look good by association with a great historical leader. "Governor Bob here is just like [associate him with the good works of] Ronald Reagan!" and so on.

 

[ColeMercury]

Speaking of the aging thing -- has anyone else realised that three of the four TNG movies were, to some extent, about getting old? "First Contact" is the only one that doesn't address the topic. Bear in mind that the cast's ages in "Nemesis" were about the same as the original series' cast's ages were in "Wrath of Khan".

 

[BillJ]

Speaking of the aging thing -- has anyone else realised that three of the four TNG movies were, to some extent, about getting old? "First Contact" is the only one that doesn't address the topic. Bear in mind that the cast's ages in "Nemesis" were about the same as the original series' cast's ages were in "Wrath of Khan".

Yet they felt so much older and worn out.