Nemesis

[RyuRoots]

I blame Stuart Baird and John Logan for most of the film's flaws. Logan claimed to be a big Trek fan and supposedly watched all the episodes before he wrote his script and yet it is one of the most weak scripts ever for a Trek movie. Baird's unfamiliarity with the characters I think hurt the emotional context of the film. I think a more knowledgeable director or even Jonathon Frakes would have been able to get more out of the actors.

I wouldn't say "even" Jonathan Frakes, really. I thought his direction in FC was brilliant, and while INS is a subpar film, it's well-presented and the character pieces work extremely well. IMHO, Frakes proved himself as a very good director (or at least, a very good Star Trek: TNG director) and I think putting him in that position for Nemesis could only have helped it.

 

[darkshadow0001]

I'm watching Nemesis right now, to finally conclude my Trek movie marathon and I honestly think it's now my least favorite movie. Before, it was The Motion Picture but Nemesis is truly a piece of garbage.

Does anyone on this board really love this movie? No judgments if you do, I'm just curious to see if there is something I'm missing.

I don't think it was a truly piece of garbage. Yeah, it had its' corniness, but I think it was a good sci-fi film. It had good excitement towards the end, when the Enterprise was attacking Shinzon's ship, (I probably got his name wrong), and I liked how the two ships rammed into each other.

The corniness of the movie I thought was some of the music, TNG films always had corny music, and the way Deanna cries at the end of the film about Data. The wedding scene wasn't the best, either, but besides that I think it has good sci-fi stuff.

 

[Aldo]

I blame Stuart Baird and John Logan for most of the film's flaws. Logan claimed to be a big Trek fan and supposedly watched all the episodes before he wrote his script and yet it is one of the most weak scripts ever for a Trek movie. Baird's unfamiliarity with the characters I think hurt the emotional context of the film. I think a more knowledgeable director or even Jonathon Frakes would have been able to get more out of the actors.

I wouldn't say "even" Jonathan Frakes, really. I thought his direction in FC was brilliant, and while INS is a subpar film, it's well-presented and the character pieces work extremely well. IMHO, Frakes proved himself as a very good director (or at least, a very good Star Trek: TNG director) and I think putting him in that position for Nemesis could only have helped it.

Regarding Frakes, what was the reasoning for him not returning to direct for a third time? I'm sure it was mentioned during the production of Nemesis but I'll be darned if I can remember what it was.

 

[donners22]

Does anyone on this board really love this movie? No judgments if you do, I'm just curious to see if there is something I'm missing.

Yep. I find them all at least watchable, but Nemesis is my third favourite.

I didn't read up about it at all beforehand, and kept away from reviews (professional and fan) for the first few weeks, and formed my own opinions. I found it very enjoyable and quite moving.

 

[Bishop76]

So, is the insinuation there that the rest of us are incapable of forming our own opinions and have based them on what we have read or heard?

 

[Aldo]

I didn't read up about it at all beforehand, and kept away from reviews (professional and fan) for the first few weeks, and formed my own opinions. I found it very enjoyable and quite moving.

Implications aside, I read up on the movie a lot, and upon my first viewing I quite enjoyed it. It wasn't until subsequent viewings that I started to notice some big flaws in the film.

It's an odd thing for me, the film is decent enough and has a good enough pace, but it just doesn't feel like it's aspiring to be much of anything. It's a slick action film without much heart, despite the valiant effort from the cast.

 

[Admiral_Young]

Frakes wasn't offered the chance to return and direct. I don't know if there was an explanation why. He's said that he would have accepted had they offered.

 

[Aldo]

Yeah I just read an interview where he says as much. He also goes on to say that if he were the director he would have included the TNG cast much more than they were featured in the film.

 

[Admiral_Young]

Yep. I think Spiner and Stewart had too much story input as well with the script and thus the reason why the others were ignored in the movie. Deanna has a storyline in the movie which I think was executed pretty well but everyone else was pretty much ignored. I think Beverley has her thaloron radiation speech.

 

[Bishop76]

Yeah, there's no question that Stewart and Spiner's involvement in the writing hurt the film and the fact that Logan has described himself as a friend and fan of Brent Spiner, so he obviously got a lot more play... It was just a clusterfuck from the word go. And I do think that Frakes would have been a better director than Baird. Not that his two attempts were masterpieces, but they were a lot better than Nemesis was.

 

[Aldo]

My problems with the tone of the film aside, First Contact is an excellently directed film. Frakes hit it out of the ballpark his first time out. Insurrection I think has the better story but Frakes direction this time out feels more laid back. While I'm sure that was intentional in that the storyline was more laid back as well, I feel he could have paced the film better.

There is no reason an outside director couldn't have turned in a great film. I almost don't blame Baird, there are some great shots in the film, but like others have pointed out he had no affinity for the characters, it's as if Berman told him to not watch any Trek prior to directing.

 

[ColeMercury]

Does anyone on this board really love this movie? No judgments if you do, I'm just curious to see if there is something I'm missing.

Yep. I find them all at least watchable, but Nemesis is my third favourite.

I didn't read up about it at all beforehand, and kept away from reviews (professional and fan) for the first few weeks, and formed my own opinions. I found it very enjoyable and quite moving.

When I first saw Nemesis, I thought it was not-so-bad: the plot relied on contrivances but that didn't bother me (so does the plot of The Search For Spock), and I'd heard enough bitching and moaning about it being a Wrath of Khan rip-off beforehand that the actual film was overall much more original than I'd expected.

Then, a few years later, I watched all the episodes of The Next Generation from beginning to end. Later I watched all the episodes of Deep Space Nine from beginning to end. And my opinion of Nemesis went way, way down as I saw exactly how it didn't measure up to everything that came before it. Nemesis was the last ever 24th-Century live-action Star Trek ever to be released: the coda to not only Next Gen but that entire era of Trek -- but as send-offs go, it was the movie equivalent of "These Are The Voyages". The only reason I thought it was not-so-bad when I first watched it was because I had no idea how much I was being short-changed.

 

[Subcommander R.]

IMO, Nemesis only has any approval ratings thanks to the non-Trek general public who wanted to see things go boom on the magic screen. Transformers 2 probably has equivalent praise, and thats not exactly what I'd call 'tolerable.' Or 'well-written.'

It has so many plotholes it makes the Jar Jar Abrams movie look solid. Worst example: Gee, lets drive around in dune buggies and violate the prime directive for no reason at all.

The other ones that annoy me: if Brent Spiner felt too old to play an ageless character, why bother blowing Data up and having another android right there? Seriously? And then there's the sudden presence of 'Remans.' Gee, apparently the whole Romulan Star Empire exists as a crappy nod to ancient Earth mythology rather than a societal/governmental comparison to Rome.

Then there's the countless other problems. Yes, countless. Ultimately I just treat it the same as STV and the new movie: I ignore it completely.

 

[Aldo]

IMO, Nemesis only has any approval ratings thanks to the non-Trek general public who wanted to see things go boom on the magic screen.

That's a little narrow minded, no?

I know several people here who find enjoyment out of the movie because they enjoy the story, and yes some people are able to take a lot away from the message the film conveys.

While I can't argue with your notion that the film is too quick to blow something up just because, I do think there is some merit to the film.

There's a good film in there somewhere, it just needed a script polish and another director to fix it.

 

[Admiral_Young]

I think the script relied too much on the "Wrath of Khan" mentality the film tries to capture. I never really saw the TNG crew as "action" heroes like the TOS crew was. It doesn't quite come across the screen right.

 

[donners22]

So, is the insinuation there that the rest of us are incapable of forming our own opinions and have based them on what we have read or heard?

Nope. I was referring to my own process of forming opinions.

Some unquestionably go in with a particular mindset - whether positive or negative - which affects their perceptions.

I think there's also the potential for a subconscious effect on the mindset from reading others' opinions; the extent of the effect no doubt varies depending on the person and the opinions read.

I find I trust my own judgment of something much more if I see it without preconceptions about it. Of course, I go in with some level of excitement and high hopes about anything Star Trek, so that skews it a bit in a positive sense, but I'm still capable of disliking things - many aspects of the most recent film, for instance.

 

[Bishop76]

Fair enough. I was just checking before I got irritated about it. See, I went in without having read anything and I was excited. It was an even Trek and we should, if history was any indicator, be in for a treat. I walked out of that POS so very very disappointed.

 

[CommanderRaytas]

Yeah, that's the same problem Star Trek IV had, and why it did so poorly at the box office. They cast a ho-ho wrapper as the antagonist and it totally bombed...

Oh, wait...

Seconded.

 

[el Chalupacabra]

I think the script relied too much on the "Wrath of Khan" mentality the film tries to capture. I never really saw the TNG crew as "action" heroes like the TOS crew was. It doesn't quite come across the screen right.

Yeah, I think they tried to ape TWOK in a too obvious, and clumsy way.

My main problem with the Nemesis was Shinzon, I think. The actor, Tom Hardy, did a fine job as a young version of Picard and is a good actor, but the character was kind of two dimensional, and just came out of no where. How is someone you met 3 hours ago your "nemesis?" With Khan and Kirk, there was like 16 years of history, and it could be argued that Kirk really did screw Khan over, and Khan's need for vengeance was understandable, if not justified to a point.

With Shinzon, his main beef is he is a clone, living in Picard's shadow? The guy already had a distinguished career as a military leader, and where do you go from conquering the Romulan Star Empire? How is Shinzon living in Picard's shadow at that point?

Instead of having Clone-Of-Picard as the main villain, I think it could have been more interesting if Sela was the main baddie . The last time we saw her was in reunion (the Spock episode) and her failed attempt to invade Vulcan. Presumably, she was disgraced, as this was her second command failure.

I could have seen a scenario where Sela, disgraced by her failures to secure control of Q'onos or conquer Vulcan, as well as hating her human half and irrationally blaming picard for sending her mother Tasha Yar to the Enterprise C, is determined to somehow exact her revenge on Picard. I think that could have been a more powerful motive for revenge than Shinzon's. The only problem with that is I don't know if Denise Crosby would have been capable of being a convincing villain.

 

[Alex1939]

Does anyone on this board really love this movie? No judgments if you do, I'm just curious to see if there is something I'm missing.

I also dislike the movie, but that final space battle was pretty awesome. I think that alone elevates it above Insurrection for me.

Final Frontier was also bad, but I like it better simply for the camaraderie between Kirk-Spock-McCoy