Nemesis is better than Insurrection: Convince me otherwise.

[DonIago]

I have to wonder, suppose that tomorrow scientists discovered a mineral that held the key to curing all cancers and eliminating every single cancer death, but to extract that mineral required forcibly relocating a village of 600 people away from where they have lived for centuries, would we hesitate to do it?

...honestly, as with INS itself, I'd hope it would be possible to pursue a diplomatic path with the 600 people and reach an accord of some sort.

The utter failure of any depiction of diplomacy in INS isn't just a failure of the film but practically a betrayal of its source material, given that TNG placed a strong emphasis on diplomacy over pew-pew.

 

[Tosk]

The utter failure of any depiction of diplomacy in INS isn't just a failure of the film but practically a betrayal of its source material, given that TNG placed a strong emphasis on diplomacy over pew-pew.

Doubly so as this wasn't even a situation where talks did not work. They didn't try, they just decided to do whatever they want in utter secrecy. Someone might argue that they couldn't engage in talks because they thought the Ba'ku were pre-warp. I would counterargue that if a species isn't advanced enough to talk to, they shouldn't be targeted for plunder by the Federation.

"The Federation does not interfere in the development of other species...unless they have something we want, apparently."

 

[fireproof78]

The Federation does not interfere in the development of other species...unless they have something we want, apparently."

Capellans would agree with this.

 

[DonIago]

Doubly so as this wasn't even a situation where talks did not work. They didn't try, they just decided to do whatever they want in utter secrecy. Someone might argue that they couldn't engage in talks because they thought the Ba'ku were pre-warp. I would counterargue that if a species isn't advanced enough to talk to, they shouldn't be targeted for plunder by the Federation.

"The Federation does not interfere in the development of other species...unless they have something we want, apparently."

There was a compelling notion that due to the Dominion War the Federation was compromising its own moral integrity...of course, like many of the compelling notions raised by INS, that one ultimately went largely unaddressed within the film.

 

[CoveTom]

Insurrection seems like a story that, if it had been a TNG episode, would have involved differing points of view from members of the crew, instead of just an outside admiral. Picard and Beverly would have probably had an intense discussion in which they disagreed. Riker would have opinions, as would Worf. Etc. The scenes around that conference table were iconic for TNG. But since the movies basically forgot that anyone other than Picard and Data existed, that didn't happen. And it was to the detriment of the film, IMHO.

 

[Yistaan]

I'm rewatching Nemesis at the end of my Trek movie marathon and am just having trouble sitting through it, unlike Insurrection. The violence against women is disturbing too. I stopped recently at the scene where Shinzon chokes Donatra after she hits on him. I'm not sure Shinzon's motives make sense even from a depraved, criminal lust-crazed point of view--why does he turn down the pretty (even with that Romulan makeup anyway) Donatra and start drooling over the middle-aged Troi? And if he really wants to **** Troi that badly, surely the Praetor of the Romulan Empire can indulge in some holodeck fantasy with holo-Troi and be done with it? We know from episodes like Unification that the Romulans have holographic technology.

 

[DonIago]

I'm not sure there's anything to be gained from trying to make sense of Shinzon's motivations throughout the film.

 

[jaime]

I'm not sure there's anything to be gained from trying to make sense of Shinzon's motivations throughout the film.

Drugs?
Oh. I hate it when I confuse actor with character…

 

[Turtletrekker]

Drugs?
Oh. I hate it when I confuse actor with character…

Relevance?

 

[Nerys Myk]

Relevance?

A dig at Hardy for his substance abuse problems?

 

[jaime]

A dig at Hardy for his substance abuse problems?

More a joke based on actors asking ‘what’s my motivations’ than a dig, but yes. Though I am not overly fond of Hardy as an actor. *shrug*

He wasn’t the problem with Nem.

 

[DonIago]

NEM led me to think very little of Hardy's acting ability. I'm rather glad I got to see him in other films after this and realize it was just the film serving him poorly.

 

[Yistaan]

NEM led me to think very little of Hardy's acting ability. I'm rather glad I got to see him in other films after this and realize it was just the film serving him poorly.

The story of what Nemesis did to Tom Hardy must've sent some shockwaves through the acting world. Apparently Benedict Cumberbatch, after getting cast as Khan, confronted Brent Spiner and Patrick Stewart at some restaurant or somewhere and demanded that Stewart advise then and there whether acting in Star Trek was going to damage Cumberbatch's career: https://trekmovie.com/2012/05/31/au...trick-stewart-if-star-trek-would-ruin-career/

Honestly it seemed a little tasteless and childish for Cumberbatch to do this in front of Spiner and demand Stewart give him an answer then and there (instead of taking Patrick's suggestion to call him later)

 

[DonIago]

I don't know much about Cumberbatch; I certainlly don't know whether such behavior is, pardon the phrase, in or out of character for him.

 

[Jeyl]

They're both problematic in their own way. Insurrection is dull, our characters put the lives of idiots above the lives of their whole civilization in a time of war and it ends with nothing gained and nothing learned.

Insurrection may have been dull, but Nemesis outright hurt. Grim and dark because yay, over indulging the lead actor because they believed his X-Men status would boost Star Trek's popularity, a massive character moment for Picard is ignored that would have been the perfect opportunity to talk Shinzon down and the potential Romulan relations didn't amount to anything thanks to the Kelvinverse.

 

[Oddish]

Saying what's better is kind of pointless. You like what you like. There are people who don't like "The Visitor" and like "Half a Life", and they're as entitled to their opinions as I am.

That being said, I at least enjoyed some of "Insurrection", even if I didn't side with the heroes in the main conflict. Nemesis brought nothing to the table save Riker and Troi's wedding. I would have preferred that they add that to "Insurrection", send the Titan off with the happy couple, and had the Enterprise (with Commander Data in the first officer's seat) head off for new horizons. Then, set ST X on DS9, maybe throw in a few VOY crew. It's unconscionable that it took us 20+ years to find out what happened to most of the crew.

 

[Yistaan]

That being said, I at least enjoyed some of "Insurrection", even if I didn't side with the heroes in the main conflict.

I find the heroes' fight against the forced and rushed deportation of the Ba'ku more relevant now. It's not so much that the Fed's interest in the planet should be disregarded so much as the fact that the Ba'ku obviously had no say in the matter, no due process, and there wasn't even an attempt to come to an arrangement where both the Ba'ku and the Federation could benefit from the planet's regenerative atmosphere (it's literally an entire planet, the Fed could've moved people in without removing 600 people which barely qualifies as a village on Earth)

 

[DonIago]

I find the heroes' fight against the forced and rushed deportation of the Ba'ku more relevant now. It's not so much that the Fed's interest in the planet should be disregarded so much as the fact that the Ba'ku obviously had no say in the matter, no due process, and there wasn't even an attempt to come to an arrangement where both the Ba'ku and the Federation could benefit from the planet's regenerative atmosphere (it's literally an entire planet, the Fed could've moved people in without removing 600 people which barely qualifies as a village on Earth)

I still think once the connection between the Ba'ku and the Son'a became known (and frankly the Son'a had no good reason not to make it known as soon as possible for the reason I'm about to reveal) the conflict between them became an internal matter and the Federation had no right to intervene.

...of course, given that the Ba'ku evidently banished the Son'a once, you'd think they could have done so again...

But it's a crime that we're presented with exactly the kind of scenario that the diplomat Picard is most known for being able to resolve, only for there to be zero serious attempts at a diplomatic solution. This could have been TNG's chance to do a story more intellectual story on the big screen, and they blew it...and blew the chance to use an actor of F. Murray Abraham's caliber in the process.

 

[Oddish]

But it's a crime that we're presented with exactly the kind of scenario that the diplomat Picard is most known for being able to resolve, only for there to be zero serious attempts at a diplomatic solution.

That's nothing new. They did that in "When the Bough Breaks", waaaaay back in Season 1.

 

[Turtletrekker]

I still think once the connection between the Ba'ku and the Son'a became known (and frankly the Son'a had no good reason not to make it known as soon as possible for the reason I'm about to reveal) the conflict between them became an internal matter and the Federation had no right to intervene.

...of course, given that the Ba'ku evidently banished the Son'a once, you'd think they could have done so again...

But it's a crime that we're presented with exactly the kind of scenario that the diplomat Picard is most known for being able to resolve, only for there to be zero serious attempts at a diplomatic solution. This could have been TNG's chance to do a story more intellectual story on the big screen, and they blew it...and blew the chance to use an actor of F. Murray Abraham's caliber in the process.

To your first point, the Son'a needed the Federation because the Baku planet was in Federation controlled space, and revealing a blood connection to the inhabitants would probably raise more questions than the Son'a were willing to answer regarding their interest in this world. As for the Son'a just taking it by force, it would be seen as an act of aggression against the United Federation of Planets by the Son'a and the Federation would respond accordingly, which would only result in the Son'a being driven away from the planet anyway. Frankly, Ru'afo was done the moment he killed Admiral Dougherty. Everything else after that was an act of pure desperation motivated by revenge.


As to your second point, It could be argued that by the time Picard became aware of the truth of the matter, Ru'afo had taken it far beyond the point where diplomacy could intervene.