Nemesis: Alternate Ideas

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies I-X' started by M.A.C.O., Feb 28, 2022.

  1. M.A.C.O.

    M.A.C.O. Commodore Commodore

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    I had several idea for Nemesis which I think would have improved the film's reception

    1. What if, Nemesis was the film released in 1998, instead of INS. Star Trek still had clout during the mid to late 90s. INS is largely blamed for pouring cold water on the franchise and having nothing new to say. 1998: One year after Titanic broke every record and one year before Star Wars would return for the Prequel movies. Star Trek releasing another big, go-get'em action film, instead of a sleepy victory lap film. I think would have gone a long way to keep the franchise burning longer.


    2. Make NEM a Dominion War film. Shinzon is now a Changeling of Picard. Instead of a Romulan clone. That was created for an abandoned infiltration plot that never really made sense in the movie proper. The Remans are another genetically engineered race created by the Founders. Like the Vorta and the Jem'Hadar. The details of the movie would play out the same. Minus the blood transfusion and B-4 subplots. With Picard engaging in philosophy duels (about duty, ideals, exploration/expansion and war) with an shapeshifter who has both stolen his face and voice.


    3. The ENT-E crew would get their big Dominion War contribution. Since they missed it on the small screen. A fleet of Starships in a battle. Like was originally planned in NEM. The plot to destroy Earth will make sense now. The Shinzon Shapeshifter will still degrade and have his body breakdown, just like in the movie. The cause will be an unknown pathogen (the morphogenic virus from DS9 season 7). Data still gets his big sacrifice moment. You can end the film with the ENT-E at DS9. Have Picard and Sisko talk about the nature of war and how much potential is lost with every shot fired and every reported casualty. End the film with Sisko or an Admiral thanking the crew for their service but reminding them that the war isn't won.


    Just a few ideas to take a film that has some solid scenes but executing them in a different time and movie going climate.

    NEM's 2002 release put it in the same arena as Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets, Lord of the Rings The Two Towers for the winter months. During the summer, Spider-Man 1 and Star Wars Episode II ruled the box office. 1998 was Trek's last shot (at the time) for relevance and intrigue with the general audience.
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2022
  2. Captain Kris Kringle Pike

    Captain Kris Kringle Pike Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    This one. Eliminating some of the subplots would go a long way.
     
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  3. Kor

    Kor Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Would this changeling be obsessively going after Picard the way Shinzon did? If so, he would need some kind of motivation. Perhaps he was engineered so that he was stuck with Picard's face when in humanoid form. Or he was stuck with Picard's face and lost the ability to shapeshift altogether.

    Kor
     
  4. Captain Kris Kringle Pike

    Captain Kris Kringle Pike Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Hmmm, interesting. Maybe the Changelings were so worried about detection that they removed that ability for deep cover. Which has driven the Changeling crazy. Kind of like Smith in the first Matrix.
     
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  5. Dukhat

    Dukhat Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I'm not sure making a TNG film about the Dominion War would be that great of an idea, considering we were seeing lots of that already in DS9.
     
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  6. STEPhon IT

    STEPhon IT Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The plot should've had Picard's greatest enemy in the movie, The Borg, and the Romulans need assistance to thwart TNG's galactic threat. Whether the Romulans or the Doppelganger lead those monsters into their space to create some sort of chaos to create a collapse with the Federation, I believed the stakes should've been a lot larger than what the movie as is had. And I am sick and tired of the villain's end game was to destroy Earth, there has to be something internally valuable for Picard than just Earth.
     
  7. M.A.C.O.

    M.A.C.O. Commodore Commodore

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    I hadn't thought of that. But it would work in the context of the story. Changelings dispatched to infiltrate the Federation and under deep cover. The Founders inducing full psychological reconditioning to help the "insiders" acclimate to life as a solid. The conditioning process and the trauma of war eventually driving insiders mad. Unable to rejoin the Great Link until he has completed his mission.


    The general and larger movie going audience wasn't following DS9 and it's multi-season spanning war arc. Using the Remans and a Founder clone of Picard as the enemy for a 1998 film, and couching it in the larger Dominion War arc could have worked. The new race of Nosferatu inspired Remans as the grunt soldiers for the movie; would avoid stepping on the toes of the dinosaur inspired Jem'Hadar on the TV. The planet killing weapon being stopped by the captain of the Federation flagship, is an easy story to digest.


    That film already existed at the time. First Contact 1996.
     
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  8. STEPhon IT

    STEPhon IT Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    FIRST CONTACT in 1996 may had the Borg but that doesn't mean another movie couldn't have the Borg in it. The Klingons made several appearances in Star Trek movies; its weird for you to think one movie the Borg had to be exclusive. Please @M.A.C.O. read my post carefully than interjecting something snarky as if I didn't know about FC.
     
  9. Danlav05

    Danlav05 Commodore Commodore

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    If you’re sticking with Romulans (although big YES to TNG Dominion War film) then have Sela and Spock in there somewhere
     
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  10. Captain Kris Kringle Pike

    Captain Kris Kringle Pike Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    The Borg had such a finality to that film it would be weird to have another film with them.
     
  11. M.A.C.O.

    M.A.C.O. Commodore Commodore

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    I don't see how my two sentences can be interpreted as "injecting snark". It's literally a statement of fact with no additional flourishes or snide condescension. Nor does it come close to implying you don't know about FC.

    Like fireproof78 said, FC brought a finality to the Borg on the big screen. Reviving them for a sequel 2 years later and dialing up the arch-nemesis angle for Picard a second time in a row, wouldn't fly. FC already said everything it needed to on Picard's rage, trauma and recovery from the Borg.

    Yeah, the Klingons made repeated appearances in the TOS movies. To the point that they are supersaturated and overexposed in the original 6 films. The same way the Borg were supersaturated and overexposed on VOY after FC was a box office hit. Think about Star Trek GEN and how the Klingons didn't have a reason to be in the movie. Their inclusion was mandated by the studio. So Braga, Moore and Berman had to squeeze them in. They become villains of the week, and that got old fast.


    I'm not against Picard going head to head with the Borg again. Just break up the appearances. In my mind, the best time would've been right after VOY ended in 2001. In a theoretical 2002 TNG farewell movie. Things changed for both Picard and the Collective. That's a story people would believe and want to see.
     
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  12. valkyrie013

    valkyrie013 Commodore Commodore

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    Let's think for a moment.
    Shenzon is around 20 years old. That means he was born 2360 or there about.
    Picard was in between commands ..or so.. 5 years after the stargazzer and 5 years from the Enterprise D .. So as seen in the movie, shenzon was abandoned early on, probably because the romulan didnt want to risk duplicating the Flagship captain when Picard got the command.

    Lets keep the romulan clone idea, seems like something they'd do.
    The needing of blood thing is useless to the script, so skip it. Still have him a bit psycho on being a clone.
     
  13. Danlav05

    Danlav05 Commodore Commodore

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    That's the thing with sci fi

    There's always a way back. They appeared in Voyager after
     
  14. Captain Kris Kringle Pike

    Captain Kris Kringle Pike Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Here's the thing-the way back causes eye rolls. The Borg were presented as defeated and now they are back? After only two movies? It's laughable. They were laughable on Voyager and this would be even more laughable.

    Bringing them back would require a delicate balance between Picard's journey in First Contact and them as a credible threat. It's not worthwhile, in my opinion. But, then, the Borg are something best left behind.
     
  15. Ssosmcin

    Ssosmcin Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Now, I get that the movies embraced action to fill the big screen and to try to get asses in the seats, but wasn't that one of the reasons why the movies were such an ill fit? The series was not an "action adventure" but a sci-fi drama. So instead of Dominion War stores, Romulan battles and Borg, how about a solid science fiction premise that's interesting and high stakes without having to fire a single phaser? Nemesis reformatted as a SF espionage plot with a lot of twists and turns, could have been a real winner if done well.

    The producers of these things, or maybe it's the studio, keep looking at The Wrath of Khan as the gold standard for success while forgetting the biggest box office hit at that time had almost no violence and very few real scenes in space after the opening. Audiences will sit still for a Star Trek without "pew pew." You just gotta make it good.
     
  16. Captain Kris Kringle Pike

    Captain Kris Kringle Pike Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Maybe not at first but it became more so, especially with "Best of Both Worlds."
    Let's be fair to the studios. What is the film Trek fans constantly hold up as the gold standard? What is the greatest Trek villain in a lot of different lists? When I was still following Star Trek magazine it was consistently The Wrath of Kahn and Khan as the answer. So, it isn't just the studios holding it to the standard; it's the fan base as well.
     
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  17. Ssosmcin

    Ssosmcin Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Actually, it's the other way around, no? The series started off as a more TOS styled adventure but became a drama as it went on. Episodes like BOBW became the exception rather than the rule.

    Fans, yes, but more non-fans came to see Star Trek two films later. And just because fans make one film a favorite, that doesn't mean they want every film afterwards to be a remake or an aping of it. The Wrath of Khan had the benefit of being a follow up to a lesser regarded film, so it was doubly successful (critically - it had lower box office) because it was more like the TV series that spawned it.

    Which is my point.

    The TNG films weren't like the TV series for the most part. They were beefed up action adventure films. But non-fans don't want the same film over and over. They want something that looks interesting or appealing. They come out for action. Then they come out for comedy. They come out for time travel. Or a mixture of these ingredients. But Nemesis was practically a Khan remake and it never even had a strong opening. People didn't care. Frigging "Maid in Manhattan" was number 1 box office that weekend. It wasn't even bad word of mouth, it could have been the greatest film in the franchise, but the concept just didn't appeal to anyone. And it was probably furthest from TNG's feel as any film before it.

    I think making a film true to the spirit of TNG as a series wouldn't have been a bad choice in retrospect. Give the space battles and Moby Dick plots a break for awhile.
     
  18. Captain Kris Kringle Pike

    Captain Kris Kringle Pike Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I never felt that early TNG was action adventure. But, that's just my impression. I'll agree that the films stand out in contrast to TNG as a series overall. But, what is considered "the best" (no pun intended) was the more action oriented episodes.
    But, that forgets that Shatner tried to do his film, and the studio wanted a comedy, and that film failed at both. So, the studios took the positives from TWOK and the overall fan reaction. They are not going to rock the boat when it comes to that.
     
  19. HappyMcWonderful

    HappyMcWonderful Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    Drop the "need blood" angle and come up with something more science-ish. I get the darkness and vampire motif but it really didn't work for me and a lot of fans.

    My biggest gripe was "another attempt on Earth." Yawn. What if there was great sacrifice by the ship and crew... to save the homeworld of it's greatest enemy? What if the degraded Picard Clone turned on his former masters and the Enterprise gave it all to keep him from taking out the Romulan homeworld?

    A lot of Romulans would look at that and go "now wait a goddamn moment here I thought these people were spineless weak and generally humanish. What gives?" No better way to bring the Romulan people closer to the Federation and put aside a lot of bad feelings am I right? A very noble very Trek moment that.

    Nah. Let's try to blow up Earth again. It's to the point that I just DGAF when something threatens the world in Star Trek anymore. Alternate timelines, reboots, time-travel, handwavum... it's just another day at the office. I bet on any given day there are at least 16 attempts to blow up Earth, six of which are thwarted by whichever Enterprise is handy and the rest are handled by the rest of the fleet. Most don't even make the news these days.
     
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  20. Captain Kris Kringle Pike

    Captain Kris Kringle Pike Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Does anyone actually believe Earth would be destroyed?