NCC -1701 (TOS).....

[fireproof78]

If the Gorn were true “monsters” as in Goldsman’s vision, they wouldn’t give a shit about pleading their case for how their territory had been violated in “Arena.” Why make the claim to Kirk if they’re just vicious and “all appetite and instinct” towards their prey? They wouldn’t give a shit in that moment about explaining its rationale unless the rationale has some merit.

Except...they're not true monsters but only perceived as such in SNW.

We only have our characters perspective to go on. A perspective which may shift with more information.

Also, I love the idea that the Gorn should just be taken at its word, even though we have no evidence to the contrary as well as the fact that the savagery of their attack and lulling the Enterprise to take away the area's protection.

 

[BillJ]

We only have our characters perspective to go on.

Doesn't one of the characters go into detail about the Gorn* hunting and eating humans? Stuff like that is hard to misinterpret.

*The Gorn are the thing I least like about SNW. It feels too transparently Alien for me to take them seriously.

 

[Citiprime]

Except...they're not true monsters but only perceived as such in SNW.

Except ... Goldsman is TELLING you his intention to make them monsters in interviews. That is the creative intent of the guy who wrote it. And there's NOTHING in their depiction so far that veers from that to make it ambiguous.

 

[Citiprime]

Doesn't one of the characters go into detail about the Gorn* hunting and eating humans? Stuff like that is hard to misinterpret.

*The Gorn are the thing I least like about SNW. It feels too transparently Alien for me to take them seriously.

What would have made the most sense if they wanted to do a Trek version of xenomorphs was to make this a new species that Starfleet was in conflict with pre-TOS. Or at the very least make them a species that has only been mentioned in passing previously (e.g., the Tzenkethi). That would have sidestepped all of this trying to rationalize how it all fits together like a frickin' jigsaw puzzle mess.

 

[Tallguy]

Except ... Goldsman is TELLING you his intention to make them monsters in interviews. That is the creative intent of the guy who wrote it. And there's NOTHING in their depiction so far that veers from that to make it ambiguous.

I'm sure that he's being clever. (He thinks.) There is no way in Star Trek / Modern Star Trek / Present Day Hollywood that a main character makes the statement "They're not hard to understand, Bob. They're monsters" and that's the beginning and the end of it.

The problem here is that the Gorn ARE monsters. (It's been pointed out that in Arena they were monsters as well. Kirk was being "the better being" and many of us might assume that the other captain would have been as well. On screen there is no evidence of this.) If you want to look at their current actions they're monsters. Our crew's two encounters before? Monsters. Go back in their history with the Federation? Monsters. So when we try and resolve this in the next season we're going to have to reconcile making peace with C'thulu. I love SNW but I don't think they're up to it.

The brilliance of Devil in the Dark is that the Horta were being wiped out and were literally fighting for their (her) survival. There's none of that here.

Pretty ship, though. Well, on the inside anyway.

 

[fireproof78]

Doesn't one of the characters go into detail about the Gorn* hunting and eating humans? Stuff like that is hard to misinterpret.

*The Gorn are the thing I least like about SNW. It feels too transparently Alien for me to take them seriously.

I agree. It's a poor choice.

Except ... Goldsman is TELLING you his intention to make them monsters in interviews. That is the creative intent of the guy who wrote it. And there's NOTHING in their depiction so far that veers from that to make it ambiguous.

I'll wait until the story is done to conclude.

But, the Gorn in Arena are not ambiguous. Their actions are pure violence.

 

[BillJ]

But, the Gorn in Arena are not ambiguous. Their actions are pure violence.

Are they? Maybe from our POV, but Trek is supposed to be about seeing a bigger world. The Gorn reacted based on what they believed was an invasion of their territory. They likely reacted in a way that overall Gorn doctrine pointed to being correct.

For whatever it's worth, apparently the Gorn have to be someone you can negotiate with as the Federation in the 24th century has a colony on Cestus III and canon doesn't point to any conflicts with the Gorn between "Arena" and when the colony was mentioned (sometime during DS9).

 

[UssGlenn]

The Gorn reacted based on what they believed was an invasion of their territory. They likely reacted in a way that overall Gorn doctrine pointed to being correct.

If you think you are being invaded, it's a very odd reaction to then fake communications to draw more enemy ships to the area.

 

[fireproof78]

Are they? Maybe from our POV, but Trek is supposed to be about seeing a bigger world. The Gorn reacted based on what they believed was an invasion of their territory. They likely reacted in a way that overall Gorn doctrine pointed to being correct.

Soringing a trap to reduce defenses is not a purely self defense move.

They rationalize their attack on Cestus III but the deception to bring in the Enterprise.

"By Gorn doctrine " doesn't make it less violent or somehow sympathetic. Kirk's choice creates that opportunity for dialog but even the Metrons note the quality of mercy would likely not have been extended.

 

[Farscape One]

Are they? Maybe from our POV, but Trek is supposed to be about seeing a bigger world. The Gorn reacted based on what they believed was an invasion of their territory. They likely reacted in a way that overall Gorn doctrine pointed to being correct.

For whatever it's worth, apparently the Gorn have to be someone you can negotiate with as the Federation in the 24th century has a colony on Cestus III and canon doesn't point to any conflicts with the Gorn between "Arena" and when the colony was mentioned (sometime during DS9).

Kasidy Yates' brother lives on Cestus III. ("FAMILY BUSINESS") It was also mentioned again in "THE WAY OF THE WARRIOR".

Clearly, some type of truce or treaty occured for a colony with humans in it to be there in 2372.

(Unless there was a war with the Gorn, and the Federation won that planet and others.)

 

[BillJ]

They rationalize their attack on Cestus III but the deception to bring in the Enterprise.

To see what type of power you may be dealing with from an invader.

Though, for all we know, the Gorn captain and crew may have been working independently of their government. We simply don't have enough information. We know a Gorn ship attacked a Federation colony. Nothing more.

(Unless there was a war with the Gorn, and the Federation won that planet and others.)

We don't have anything in any episode or movie to indicate there were any more conflicts with the Gorn post-Cestus III.

 

[Farscape One]

Soringing a trap to reduce defenses is not a purely self defense move.

They rationalize their attack on Cestus III but the deception to bring in the Enterprise.

"By Gorn doctrine " doesn't make it less violent or somehow sympathetic. Kirk's choice creates that opportunity for dialog but even the Metrons note the quality of mercy would likely not have been extended.

In PREDATOR, Dutch and the remainder of his unit were creating traps all over the area because they were being hunted. Then they waited for it, hoping to kill the Predator before it got the rest of them.

That was self-defense by springing traps. Sometimes the best defense is offense.

 

[UssGlenn]

There is no way in Star Trek / Modern Star Trek / Present Day Hollywood that a main character makes the statement "They're not hard to understand, Bob. They're monsters" and that's the beginning and the end of it.

This such an incredibly obvious set up I almost can't believe we are still debating. It's quite deliberate that we have only met juvenile gorn, and even those have been remarked upon by the characters as to been behaving more cooperatively than expected.

 

[Farscape One]

To see what type of power you may be dealing with from an invader.

Though, for all we know, the Gorn captain and crew may have been working independently of their government. We simply don't have enough information. We know a Gorn ship attacked a Federation colony. Nothing more.



We don't have anything in any episode or movie to indicate there were any more conflicts with the Gorn post-Cestus III.

True, but that doesn't mean the current era will not create one during that time between TOS and DS9.

 

[BillJ]

True, but that doesn't mean the current era will not create one during that time between TOS and DS9.

I will say the forbidden words right now, I know what CBS says, I know what fans say...

I treat SNW as an alternate timeline.

 

[Citiprime]

It's been pointed out that in Arena they were monsters as well. Kirk was being "the better being" and many of us might assume that the other captain would have been as well. On screen there is no evidence of this.

Here's the problem with thinking they were intended to be monsters in TOS too, and just as monstrous as they are in SNW.

If the Gorn are "monsters" based on their actions in "Arena" then so is a hell of a lot of other races in Trek's pantheon.

Is anyone really going to tell me that if a colony was unknowingly established inside Klingon, Cardassian, or Romulan space, based on everything we know about those species, would the reaction have been any different than the Gorn's? And I could also see the same set of circumstances where it may be a situation where they honestly believed they were defending their home against invaders based in their own culture's values.

 

[Tallguy]

Can't there be one thread that touches on SNW that doesn't devolve into debating the Gorn? This is even a thread with TOS in the title!

 

[fireproof78]

Though, for all we know, the Gorn captain and crew may have been working independently of their government. We simply don't have enough information. We know a Gorn ship attacked a Federation colony. Nothing more.

Indeed, but a lot more grace is given to the Gorn than even the episode does.

In PREDATOR, Dutch and the remainder of his unit were creating traps all over the area because they were being hunted. Then they waited for it, hoping to kill the Predator before it got the rest of them.

That was self-defense by springing traps. Sometimes the best defense is offense.

Except, the Predator was still in Dutch's territory. The Gorn had destroyed invaders and then invited more invaders to come.

This such an incredibly obvious set up I almost can't believe we are still debating. It's quite deliberate that we have only met juvenile gorn, and even those have been remarked upon by the characters as to been behaving more cooperatively than expected.

I will say the forbidden words right now, I know what CBS says, I know what fans say...

I treat SNW as an alternate timeline.

That's fine.

I treat it as a different production of the same in universe events.

Is anyone really going to tell me that if a colony was unknowingly established inside Klingon, Cardassian, or Romulan space, based on everything we know about those species, would the reaction have been any different than the Gorn's?

Would they invite in another Federation trip by a trick and deception to try and destroy the protective of an entire region of space?

And yes, some of the other species are monstrous. So are humans. Definitely the Klingons, who had to make no concessions as part of the Khitomer Accords, despite TOS showing slave labor, aggressive expansionist, and blatant specist reactions towards humans.

Can't there be one thread that touches on SNW that doesn't devolve into debating the Gorn? This is even a thread with TOS in the title!

No.

Why?

 

[BillJ]

Would they invite in another Federation trip by a trick and deception to try and destroy the protective of an entire region of space?

If this was a first time encounter? Possibly.

 

[fireproof78]

If this was a first time encounter? Possibly.

With due respect, that makes no sense to me.

To me, this is like I shot home invaders due to fearing for my life and then texted the invaders friends and family to come to my home as that invader and kill them too!