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Which Enterprise do I think of as the NCC-1701 in the Mid-23rd Century? The one I'm most likely to watch. That's TOS. Every year, I'll re-watch a different batch of episodes. I haven't seen every episode of SNW and I've never watched any of the ones I have seen more than once. The Kelvin Films had no staying power for me.
One is something I'll actually watch again. The other two are just an Internet Argument.
You flatter me, sir. And while I do love the design, I can still certainly respect those who still prefer the original, because I too love that design.
I like to think the only reason we all argue about the ships is because we're that part of the fandom that adore Starships. They're something special to us. We all have our favourites and we'll do our damnedest to make sure everyone know it.
It's actually one of the more fun things from our fandom that is uniquely Star Trek. You don't seem to see Star Wars fans obsessing over what's better, a Mon Calamari MC80 Liberty Type Star Cruiser or a Mon Calamari MC80a Star Cruiser.
Feeling like a real ship. Something that actually functions in the world. TOS works on a certain level, but when you put it in the other shows it feels far more fake. It's not easy to describe. It's something that just sticks out to me when I watch it.
This sounds to me like you are comparing a 1960s model filmed with 1960s technology vs. modern (CGI) models filmed with modern technology. I know that observation has been denied (either by you or others), but that is what it sounds like.
A plastic 1960s model built with a limited TV budget is going to look like a toy when compared to today's Trek. This has nothing to do with the depicted size of the fictional shuttle bay, nor the shape of the bridge module, nor the smooth surface and lack of texture.
2001's Discovery and PanAm space plane (minus the livery) still look realistic today despite being late 1960s productions. That's what a movie budget and movie production and technology can do.
Honestly, I prefer the refit/A for this very reason. It looks real. The exterior looks real. The interior looks real. It looks like a real ship and not a plastic model. Of course, the TMP Enterprise was created with a movie budget, filmed with movie technology, and the bridge was built with control panel functionality the TOS series lacked.
Honestly, the TOS era Enterprise created with today's budget with today's technology would look just as real as the DISCO or the Titan. Even the smooth skin is realistic when compared to a 21st century military drone, cruse missile, F-117 fighter, or Zumwalt Class destroyer.
It's dismissive to think today's production could not recreate an exact replica of the TOS Enterprise exterior and that it would not look just as realistic or stunning as the current ships.
It's dismissive to think today's production could not recreate an exact replica of the TOS Enterprise exterior and that it would not look just as realistic or stunning as the current ships.
Where I would argue this analogy breaks down is that when Doctor Who doesn't claim the TARDIS has never changed and has always looked like its current form, like the people behind Discovery and Strange New Worlds seem to want to go with the Enterprise in order to make it "fit" better.
I thought it's been literally stated on screen that the TARDIS chameleon circuit is broken, leaving the machine stuck in its police box form. It's a pretty fair reading that a change in form, however slight, would contradict that.
DOCTOR: It's called a chameleon circuit. The Tardis is meant to disguise itself wherever it lands, like if this was Ancient Rome, it'd be a statue on a plinth or something. But I landed in the 1960s, it disguised itself as a police box, and the circuit got stuck.
MICKEY: So it copied a real thing? There actually was police boxes?
DOCTOR: Yeah, on street corners. Phone for help before they had radios and mobiles. If they arrested someone, they could shove them inside till help came, like a little prison cell.
JACK: Why don't you just fix the circuit?
DOCTOR: I like it, don't you?
ROSE: I love it.
And if we're going to get hyper-technical, where in Star Trek does it come out and say that the NCC-1701 was always the same size? It literally doesn't, but there's a reasonable and implicit appeal to common sense involved that in-universe it ought not to fluctuate too much when refit.
That said, the length of the ship down to the nearest millimeter hasn't had any impact on any story, like ever. Same with the police box form. No Doctor Who story has hinged upon taking calipers to the police box, at least as far as I know. This is theater, not a documentary.
I can see maybe preferring it over the future Enterprise J, but otherwise a hard no. Even the F and G are far better than Abrams.
As for ships being characters, hard disagree. But this may be more an opinion common to those of us who love the ships. If you aren't that much into them, I can see why you'd think they weren't characters.
As for ships being characters, hard disagree. But this may be more an opinion common to those of us who love the ships. If you aren't that much into them, I can see why you'd think they weren't characters.
I thought it's been literally stated on screen that the TARDIS chameleon circuit is broken, leaving the machine stuck in its police box form. It's a pretty fair reading that a change in form, however slight, would contradict that
in one of the minisodes 11 tells Amy how its broken. The chameleon circuit scans the surroundings upon materialisation, decides on the best disguise, but then disguises the craft as a 1963 police box anyway. Obviously, the circuit "works" as the Tardis stays disguised, but it occasionally updates exactly what version of Police Box it looks like. I know 11 and 13 have commented on the exterior changes.
Obviously, the circuit "works" as the Tardis stays disguised, but it occasionally updates exactly what version of Police Box it looks like. I know 11 and 13 have commented on the exterior changes.
I thought it's been literally stated on screen that the TARDIS chameleon circuit is broken, leaving the machine stuck in its police box form. It's a pretty fair reading that a change in form, however slight, would contradict that.
There's been moments in episodes that imply The Doctor isn't exactly telling the truth about the TARDIS' circuit being "broken," and either The Doctor or the TARDIS itself likes the form. When Donna (Catherine Tate) gets the Doctor's knowledge inside her head, she points out that he could easily fix it.
Also, broken doesn't mean not working. It obviously works since it's a police box. But police boxes varied over the years and looked different in different places. The TARDIS may be stuck as a police box, but there’s “wiggle room” in there for the shape to change slightly.
The Eleventh Doctor: It's camouflage. It's disguised as a police telephone box from 1963. Every time the TARDIS materializes in a new location, within the first nanosecond of landing, it analyzes its surroundings, calculates a twelve-dimensional data map of everything within a thousand mile radius, and determines which outer shell would blend in best with the environment. And then it disguises itself as a police telephone box from 1963.
I think people are connected to the ships in the same way they connect to characters.
And I'm sure some here would agree with me when I say a starship is a character. The Enterprise (any version or letter), Defiant, Voyager, etc... they are just as much a lead character as the actors listed.
More so, because there wouldn't be any adventures without those ships. (Or stations, like DS9. )
To me, this is most apparent in Search for Spock. The destruction of the original Enterprise is treated like the death of a character within that movie, and I think it's part of the reason that scene has always had more oomph to me than the similar scenes in Generations and Beyond.
I vaguely remember either Harve Bennett or Leonard Nimoy talking about that they believed you could bring Spock back, but you had to "pay" for it by sacrificing something else. That you had to balance out the books. And that's what David's death and the Enterprise's destruction serve. Kirk and the characters mourn the ship's destruction in the "My God, Bones, what have I done?" scene just like it was a character. Sarek mentions the Enterprise in the same sentence with David as the "cost" Kirk has endured to get Spock to Vulcan.
I know some people have talked about this with Picard season 3 too. That they felt the Enterprise-D was the last "character" to show up as part of the TNG reunion.
I think I get what you're saying. You look at the ship as more a tool for where the stories go, right? Like a car is a tool to get you to where you want to go.
There's been moments in episodes that imply The Doctor isn't exactly telling the truth about the TARDIS' circuit being "broken," and either The Doctor or the TARDIS itself likes the form. When Donna (Catherine Tate) gets the Doctor's knowledge inside her head, she points out that he could easily fix it.
Also, broken doesn't mean not working. It obviously works since it's a police box. But police boxes varied over the years and looked different in different places. The TARDIS may be stuck as a police box, but there’s “wiggle room” in there for the shape to change slightly.
The Eleventh Doctor: It's camouflage. It's disguised as a police telephone box from 1963. Every time the TARDIS materializes in a new location, within the first nanosecond of landing, it analyzes its surroundings, calculates a twelve-dimensional data map of everything within a thousand mile radius, and determines which outer shell would blend in best with the environment. And then it disguises itself as a police telephone box from 1963.
To me, this is most apparent in Search for Spock. The destruction of the original Enterprise is treated like the death of a character within that movie, and I think it's part of the reason that scene has always had more oomph to me than the similar scenes in Generations and Beyond.
I vaguely remember either Harve Bennett or Leonard Nimoy talking about that they believed you could bring Spock back, but you had to "pay" for it by sacrificing something else. That you had to balance out the books. And that's what David's death and the Enterprise's destruction serve. Kirk and the characters mourn the ship's destruction in the "My God, Bones, what have I done?" scene just like it was a character. Sarek mentions the Enterprise in the same sentence with David as the "cost" Kirk has endured to get Spock to Vulcan.
I know some people have talked about this with Picard season 3 too. That they felt the Enterprise-D was the last "character" to show up as part of the TNG reunion.
Yes, exactly! That's why her destruction was such a gut punch. Watching her blow up... that hurt.
I felt the same when the Breen destroyed the Defiant. That final shot splitting her open completely... that never fails to hurt. (My wife and I recently finished our DS9 rewatch... and it still hits me.)
I think I get what you're saying. You look at the ship as more a tool for where the stories go, right? Like a car is a tool to get you to where you want to go.
And yet, a fair number of people name their car*, talk to it (praising, encouraging or cursing depending on circumstance), even go so far as considering it a member of the family. Just because it is an object doesn't mean you can't have an emotional connection to it or that it doesn't have quirks that give it a 'personality' unique to it. It's something that humans have doing since forever, humanizing our things.
Starships are no different.
(And yes, I get that some don't. That there is only a utilitarian attitude in that it is a useful tool and no more. But that is not everyone.)
)
There's a few pie flavors I don't like, with sweet potato at the top of that list.
