I'll do what I can.
NCC -1701 (TOS).....
- Thread starter Dar70
- Start date
My original point, which has been rather lost at this point, was to refute that the Tardis doesn't look completely different. It, by definition, has to be completely different if the 2 props don't share a single piece of geometry in common. Also don't let the fact that the Tardis is a full scale prop and the Enterprise a scale model confuse the issue. The 11 footer and the 33 incher are supposed to be the same ship in universe even if the models don't quite match, thus the parts are indeed "interchangeable".
What it boils down to is that, we as Trek fans see the Tardis roof grow more steps and think it's a minor change, but really it's just as big of a difference as slanting the warp nacelle pylons.
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Where I would argue this analogy breaks down is that when Doctor Who doesn't claim the TARDIS has never changed and has always looked like its current form, like the people behind Discovery and Strange New Worlds seem to want to go with the Enterprise in order to make it "fit" better. They don't retcon away the history of The Doctor wearing broccoli and question marks either, because a modern audience might think it stupid. They just roll with it all.
And that's what Star Trek did with the original Enterprise ... until 2018.
Who is claiming that?
Thus far the arguments have been "This looks more modern" not "it's always looked this way."
And Who is less interesting than Trek.
And I didn't watch WHO for the longest time because of the stupid question marks and the police box. It was completely inaccessible for a newbie SF fan like myself when I was younger.
From page 4 of this thread: "I think that ship has long sailed. Nevermind the fact the ship is significantly larger, to go from what we see in SNW, to a TOS aesthetic, then go to the refit, would be somewhat ridiculous."
From Ex Astris Scienta:
"The makers of Discovery and SNW love TOS by their own affirmations. But according to their series, the look of the TOS Enterprise has never existed. As much as we may still want to reconcile the new Enterprise (which looks good after all!) with TOS, it would make absolutely no sense if the ship had been substantially refitted some time after "The Cage" prior to DIS, only to be reverted to the familiar look after the end of SNW until 2264 (TOS: "Where No Man Has Gone Before"). Even if we decided to discard the visuals of the first pilot in favor of the rest of TOS, the new appearance of the Enterprise has too little in common with the ship as it looked in TOS. It already includes many cues of the 2271 refit ("Star Trek: The Motion Picture"). So it seems new Trek keeps the option to spare the TOS movie era (well, except for the size issue), but the series shows no mercy with TOS, whose designs are retroactively invalidated."
Then I stand corrected.
And I will hold to my ridiculous position. Because I have no issue with refits back and forth.
Ignored.
Reminds of me this:
As someone who does not obsess over ships, I will give my EveryWoman opinion:On the TOS / TMP ship there is the bridge dome, then a section that houses (presumably) two more decks, then the saucer proper.
On SNW there is a bubble that is above the bridge then a second structure that almost blends in with the rest of the saucer. On SNW this is where the bridge is (because you can see it through the window).
For the TARDIS, I had no idea the exterior had changed so much. My brain sees a blue TARDIS-looking box and says "That's the TARDIS," and thinks no more on it. It's not detailed enough for me to "see" those differences except when you put them next to each other.
For the Enterprise, I can definitely see the differences, even if I couldn't necessarily name them (which is why I thank people who create pics like the above where I can compare apples to apples). BUT, my brain still registers them all as "Enterprise." Because they are similar *enough* for pattern recognition.
I honestly love them all because I love the basic design and look. She's beautiful to me, no matter what iteration I see. But the TOS Enterprise will always have a special place in my heart (which is why I bought myself one!).
Exactly so.
And it is this love of TOS that makes me willing to work with SNW as part of the overall continuity. It's not disrespectful to provide an update to a ship. It's working with the material. It's a beautiful thing to me to see so much variety.
If only they updated the design to make it look, I don’t know…nicer-looking. I would never begrudge anyone for liking the Discoprise, but to me this version is just dull, boring, ugly and derivative.
This is of course only my opinion, so anyone who disagrees, that’s fine too. @HotRod made a fantastic model of the ship, and it looks great, and he loves the design. However, that still doesn’t change my mind about the ship.
This is of course only my opinion, so anyone who disagrees, that’s fine too. @HotRod made a fantastic model of the ship, and it looks great, and he loves the design. However, that still doesn’t change my mind about the ship.
I do wonder around the emotional response to these starship designs. It seems as though the objection isn't to change but that the new design doesn't inspire the emotions of the old.
Curious.
Curious.
This. As ‘blue boxes’ go, there are not enough differences between William Hartnell’s Tardis and David Tennant’s Tardis that any casual observer could tell them apart. With the TOS Enterprise and the Discoprise, however, that’s a different story. Sure, they have a saucer, neck, secondary hull and two nacelles on pylons in common. But there are so many intrinsic differences once you get past that that even a casual observer can tell them apart. However, if that casual observer is told ‘this is the Enterprise,’ it looks close enough for government work that they won’t care.
Also, my example of the Tardis had nothing to do with its minuscule changes to its outward appearance. It had to do with the present showrunners thinking that they should still use the iconic design despite a 21st century audience having no idea what a police call box is. They didn’t think that it was an unrealistic and outdated design that today’s audiences wouldn’t accept.
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Then again, there are those of us who have no emotions at all when it comes to starship design.
Then again, there are those of us who have no emotions at all when it comes to starship design.
Most people who watch Star Trek don’t. Only the .001% of fans who post at the TrekBBS do.
And of course the people who actually work on the show.
Indeed, yes.Then again, there are those of us who have no emotions at all when it comes to starship design.
Which is why it is so interesting when descriptors of "bland" are used around a starship design. Like, the ship evokes an emotion and being bland is considered bad?
It's confusing.
Then again, there are those of us who have no emotions at all when it comes to starship design.
Haha. I think we all get a little emotional.with Trek in general. Not crying emotional but emotional when it comes to how the franchise is treated.
I just wish a little more care went into current Trek. I personally just like things to make a bit more visual sense in the context of the shows. I get that others don't care. They use the "it's always been that way" matra in their heads. I can do that in a more limited capacity but not in a sweepingly way.
As I have said before SNW has excellent production values. But the ENTEPRISE in SMW to me looks more like a refit before the refit. Which actually would have been a cool way to bridge the last couple years of Kirks 5 year mission leading up to his desk job and then the last refit.
Well, no. I do care. Just not the way that others do. I want the shared history, not the visual history. To sweep it aside is to lose a sense of connected history.
As someone who thinks Pike is the second best captain (after Robau) I would rather have SNW line up and to go with the TMP attitude that TOS was a dramatic recreation of Kirk's logs, rather than strict literal history. As with horseshoes and hand grenades and H bombs, the continuity between SNW and TOS is close enough for my entertainment values.
Certainly a better fit than TOS to TMP.
ANYTHING is better than Abrams' ugly version of the Enterprise.
I think people are connected to the ships in the same way they connect to characters.
And I'm sure some here would agree with me when I say a starship is a character. The Enterprise (any version or letter), Defiant, Voyager, etc... they are just as much a lead character as the actors listed.
More so, because there wouldn't be any adventures without those ships. (Or stations, like DS9.
)Regarding the TOS Enterprise... she will always have a special place in my heart. She was elegant, functional... beautiful in her simplicity. She is iconic. To know her is to love her... and she is beloved by myself and so many others.
And I am also fine with the SNW version, because she still is basically the same. She's sort of a cross between TOS and the refit from the movies. I think it works. (I also think the refit is stunningly gorgeous. And I don't think the scene in TMP with Scotty showing Kirk the new look was too long. In fact, it could have been longer!)
