Nasty Characters Masquerading As Good - Willow Rosenberg

[BigJake]

I call someone a bitch and I'm misogynistic?

Whether you are or not I have no idea, but you've certainly made yourself sound that way:

a black eyed little pussy with a chip on her shoulder . . . Crazy bitch . . . two-faced bitch . . . really takes the cunt cake . . . boastful, narcissistic bitch . . . ginger control-freak [?!] . . . I'm sure you'll agree there's plenty to NOT like about this twat [later edited to "freak" in what seems to have been imagined an improvement]

Let's just say this constant drumbeat of juvenile hostility doesn't inspire confidence in your evaluations of the character's arc or of her morality. Combined with the total dedication to interpreting each and every character beat with maximum humorlessness and hatefulness and yes, you've buried a potentially interesting topic under a mass of wildly over-the-top ranting and misogynistic name-calling.

 

[Guy Gardener]

The term "cunt cake" baffles me.

Is it cunt flavoured or made from cunts?

These things have happened before...

 

[Apple Goblin]

I call someone a bitch and I'm misogynistic?

Whether you are or not I have no idea, but you've certainly made yourself sound that way:

a black eyed little pussy with a chip on her shoulder . . . Crazy bitch . . . two-faced bitch . . . really takes the cunt cake . . . boastful, narcissistic bitch . . . ginger control-freak [?!] . . . I'm sure you'll agree there's plenty to NOT like about this twat [later edited to "freak" in what seems to have been imagined an improvement]

Let's just say this constant drumbeat of juvenile hostility doesn't inspire confidence in your evaluations of the character's arc or of her morality. Combined with the total dedication to interpreting each and every character beat with maximum humorlessness and hatefulness and yes, you've buried a potentially interesting topic under a mass of wildly over-the-top ranting and misogynistic name-calling.

Well, you are burying the topic with this so-called imaginary misogyny. My language is foul and aggressive but it's not misogynistic. If I were analyzing Xander, I would be even more hateful, trust me (and yes, I use the 'c' word for males too. If you think that's misogynistic, fine).

I have clearly pin-pointed quotes and low-life moments for Willow. Dismiss it or not, the proof is there.

 

[Maestro]

Bitch is rather gender specific and carries with it a very denigrating connotation specifically towards females (I believe I'm actually being redundant here, but just to make sure...). Cunt, on the other hand, is an exceptionally vile insult, and regardless of whether or not you're using it in reference to a man or a woman, it is denigrating to females.

You may find that you'll have more success debating your points if your language omitted such, to borrow from TVH, "colorful metaphors."

 

[Apple Goblin]

Bitch is rather gender specific and carries with it a very denigrating connotation specifically towards females (I believe I'm actually being redundant here, but just to make sure...). Cunt, on the other hand, is an exceptionally vile insult, and regardless of whether or not you're using it in reference to a man or a woman, it is denigrating to females.

You may find that you'll have more success debating your points if your language omitted such, to borrow from TVH, "colorful metaphors."

Fine. But where I'm from, the 'c' word doesn't have the same connotations, and some females even use the word quite casually in a way that would make your average American flinch to death

And debating what points? The only people who have replied to this thread in any length, and in reference to my points, have pretty much agreed with me.

 

[Skellington]

It's easy to read a lot into the Dark Willow storyline, but ultimately it was really just a fanboy steal from an X-Men arc of twenty years beforehand. (Gentle telekinetic redhead gains immense power and becomes an instrument of terrible destruction, causing friends to consider having to kill her.)

The key word is "instrument". Willow made mistakes, but the Big Bad of the season six end-arc was really the loaded gun of those demon-saturated books she absorbed -

- or so I tell myself. Willow was my Prozac, so maybe I tend to make excuses.

Incidentally, there's already been a thread of a similar nature on Xander.

 

[BigJake]

My language is foul and aggressive but it's not misogynistic.

Well, here's an idea: if you don't want misogyny to come up, don't persistently make foul and aggressive use of words like "bitch," "cunt" and "twat." They may be no big deal in whatever your local dialect is, but I think you'll find that's not the case more widely.

I really wouldn't have as much of a problem with foul and aggressive language if it wasn't accompanied by analysis that's foul and aggressive to the point of outright distortion. Which yours is. Frankly, I've been trying to work out whether you were just trolling the forum and whether pointing out to you the flaws in your examples was going to be worthwhile... but since you appear to mean this stuff sincerely and unironically, perhaps I'll have a bash at it.

 

[Aldo]

Little piece of advice Apple Goblin: If you want people to take you seriously on an open forum (whether online or in real life) perhaps you should cut down on the language. There are other ways to say you don't like someone than calling them a cunt, or a twat.

 

[Sindatur]

Little piece of advice Apple Goblin: If you want people to take you seriously on an open forum (whether online or in real life) perhaps you should cut down on the language. There are other ways to say you don't like someone than calling them a cunt, or a twat.

Yea, I know there's Countries where Twat doesn't carry the same connotations as it does here in the States, but, I don't recall ever hearing that the same is true for Vile "C" word. Sure, there will be neighborhoods or close knit groups where words like that are "No Big Deal", but, I'm pretty sure I've never heard/read that it is acceptable decorum in any Country at large.

Can anyone enlighten what Countries it might be acceptable to the population at large?

 

[Apple Goblin]

It's easy to read a lot into the Dark Willow storyline, but ultimately it was really just a fanboy steal from an X-Men arc of twenty years beforehand. (Gentle telekinetic redhead gains immense power and becomes an instrument of terrible destruction, causing friends to consider having to kill her.)

The key word is "instrument". Willow made mistakes, but the Big Bad of the season six end-arc was really the loaded gun of those demon-saturated books she absorbed -

- or so I tell myself. Willow was my Prozac, so maybe I tend to make excuses.

Incidentally, there's already been a thread of a similar nature on Xander.

I LOVE this Xander post.

OP knows what she is talking about. That chauvinistic cunt Xander made me vomit on more than one occasion. I was going to do one of these for Xander, but why say what's already been perfectly said?

 

[Guy Gardener]

Glorified brick layer takes the spare!

 

[BigJake]

Can anyone enlighten what Countries it might be acceptable to the population at large?

Scotland, perhaps. But the planet is not Scotland.

Okay! Directly engaging with the OP, Episode one: On Humour.

1.1 . . . Willow enacts revenge by tricking [Cordelia] into deleting her computer assignment.

(Incidentally, I don't know what episode you have in mind, but this does not happen in this episode that I can find.)

2.3 - School Hard: Willow purposely gives Cordelia the most sour glass of lemonade she can find

All the lemonade is sour, and so is Cordelia, and Willow does make a small and innocent joke* at her expense by inviting her to have some of it. Willow also, incidentally, saves her life later in the episode.

* This is going to be a persistent theme. Willow's personality has a pronounced whimsical streak and she often engages in subtle deadpan humour and practical jokes. Not being able to recognize what a joke is might impair one's ability to say something worthwhile about these incidents.

For example:

2.4 - Inca Mummy Girl: Willow seems indifferent to the fact that her 'good' friend Xander is continually bullied

Actually, that she offers to confront the guy in question suggests that she's not indifferent. She just makes a joke about it because sometimes people cope with shitty things by joking about them.

Likewise:

3.2 - Dead Man's Party: . . . Wow. Just wow. Did she just encourage them to physically fight?

Wow. Just wow. No! She just made a joke.

(Also, everyone is pissed at Buffy in that episode for good reason.)

I leave further examples of wildly misinterpreting humour in your screed -- almost all of your attempts at citing an episode feature one -- as an exercise for the reader.

Stay tuned for Episode Two: On Wild Overstatement.

 

[Apple Goblin]

1.1 . . . Willow enacts revenge by tricking [Cordelia] into deleting her computer assignment.

(Incidentally, I don't know what episode you have in mind, but this does not happen in this episode that I can find.)

Willow tells Cordelia to hit the 'del' key when she asks her a question in the computer lab.

All the lemonade is sour, and so is Cordelia, and Willow does make a small and innocent joke* at her expense by inviting her to have some of it. Willow also, incidentally, saves her life later in the episode.

This is the weakest point I made in my OP, but of course she saved her life. To not do so would be homicidal and Willow doesn't quite get there till season 5/6. And Cordelia is a forthright Bully - Willow always has the opportunity to respond, but she never does. Instead she performs sly, behind your back acts of vengeance. No wonder she loves the dark arts so much.

* This is going to be a persistent theme. Willow's personality has a pronounced whimsical streak and she often engages in subtle deadpan humour and practical jokes. Not being able to recognize what a joke is might impair one's ability to say something worthwhile about these incidents.

For example:

2.4 - Inca Mummy Girl: Willow seems indifferent to the fact that her 'good' friend Xander is continually bullied

Actually, that she offers to confront the guy in question suggests that she's not indifferent. She just makes a joke about it because sometimes people cope with shitty things by joking about them.

Buffy sniggered and whether Willow was joking or not, it's inappropriate humour.

Likewise:

3.2 - Dead Man's Party: . . . Wow. Just wow. Did she just encourage them to physically fight?

Wow. Just wow. No! She just made a joke.

(Also, everyone is pissed at Buffy in that episode for good reason.)

I leave further examples of wildly misinterpreting humour in your screed -- almost all of your attempts at citing an episode feature one -- as an exercise for the reader.

Stay tuned for Episode Two: On Wild Overstatement.

A joke? Her face was filled with rancour, she wanted to extend that argument for as long it would go. The fact that everyone was ganging up on Buffy made Willow's digs all the more inexcusable. Oz was somewhat disgusted at her even. Cordelia, of all people, has to stop Xander, because she's downright uncomfortable watching the drama.

And I neglected to mention Willow's 'pity-me' speech in this episode, completely ignoring Buffy's depression and capitalizing on her own, a behavior she also demonstrates in later seasons.

You sure you want to use humour to excuse Willow's selfishness? This is a girl who thinks it's funny to say 'bored now' and then flay people to death.

 

[BigJake]

A joke? Her face was filled with rancour, she wanted to extend that argument for as long it would go.

I'll come back to wildly overstated and distorted nonsense like this in Episode Two. (I'll simply note in the meantime that the anti-Xander post linked above is good because the person writing it didn't have to distort Xander's behaviour to criticize it, or pull in examples of extremely questionable relevance like this...)

This is a girl who thinks it's funny to say 'bored now' and then flay people to death.

Maybe I'll have to treat stuff like that in Episode Three.

 

[Herkimer Jitty]

What's wrong with ginger?

Is that the kind of person you are, Apple Goblin? Rude and not ginger?

 

[Apple Goblin]

A joke? Her face was filled with rancour, she wanted to extend that argument for as long it would go.

I'll come back to wildly overstated and distorted nonsense like this in Episode Two. (I'll simply note in the meantime that the anti-Xander post linked above is good because the person writing it didn't have to distort Xander's behaviour to criticize it, or pull in examples of extremely questionable relevance like this...)

This is a girl who thinks it's funny to say 'bored now' and then flay people to death.

Maybe I'll have to treat stuff like that in Episode Three.

I'm pretty sure everyone's behaviour is disgraceful in Dead Man's Party. Why Willow and Xander would bring the entire school and then act all off with Buffy, deny anything is wrong, and then gang up on her later shows just how manipulative Xander and Willow really are. And these are Buffy's 'friends'? Ha! Joyce also shames herself by saying it's 'worse' to have Buffy back at home than it was to have her missing.

 

[DonIago]

Still think this thread reads much better as satire, but kudos for making a post that didn't involve any vulgarity.

 

[-Brett-]

The last few seem legit, but the first few dozen make me wonder about the OP's mental state.

Sour lemonade? Clearly, this character is worse than Hitler! Next you'll tell me she talked at the theater.

As for the more general topic, JD from Scrubs had a few moments when I thought he was a dick, and not in the funny way.

This being a Star Trek website, an obvious nominee is Katherine Janeway.

 

[Anwar]

For another popular, IMO worse, character, I never really liked Ron Weasley and thought he was pretty annoying in the last two books (this is a little from my liking both Harry/Hermione and Harry/Ginny and him disliking both).

Rowling more or less admitted she ran out of ideas of what to do with Ron's character halfway through the series (around GOF) so she decided to completely change his character and make him the series punching bag (the guy who gets abused to make others look better, or generate conflict when there has to be some even when it makes no sense for his character).

Frankly, Harry was always a pretty lousy friend to Ron so he never really deserved Ron and Hermione's loyalties to begin with.

 

[DonIago]

Sources?