Not just "I love my wife", but "My wife is the greatest wife on Earth!".
My Thoughts on Immigration
- Thread starter ShamelessMcBundy
- Start date
A
Amaris
Guest
For the record, I love EVERYBODY'S wife.
Since it's something that pop up often around here, I wanted to explain what I perceive as a difference between our cultures. I'm glad you didn't take offence.Thanks for putting like that. And you're right - I confess that I don't "get it".
I'm the first to cheer for Italian teams and athletes at the Olympics or the World Cup.
But those are competitions: one wins, one loses (or sometimes it's a tie: another weird European concept that leaves most Americans baffled
Cheering for your home country when there isn't any competition involved seems... pointless.
Agree with what iguana_tonante says. Sort of, when I say "I think I live in a great country" it still leaves room for many more great countries or "buts", but when I would say "My country is the greatest country in the world" it leaves no room at all for other countries or for things that may not be so great in the country and its a generalisation.
As for immigration: I am fine with it and I like diversity. The problem I see however is when, be it from side of the immigrants or the natives or both, the immigration is only "half done". Means no mixing with the other, not learning the countries language (which does not mean forgetting the own language) and things like that. Living in the same country, but absolutly seperated of each other is a failt try of immigration, but not immigration.
Also I think that some people may have it easier to immigrate, while others meet more difficulties, because of prejudices and fears.
TerokNor
I hate to break it to you but the demographic trends are for Spanish to overtake English as the most widely-spoken language in North America in the next 50-100 years, so get used to the idea of Spanish being either an official secondary or primary language in your children's or grandchildren's lifetimes.
I think a fundamental flaw in this attitude is the notion that there's some kind of normalised national state and that nations are unchanging in the face of population movement. This isn't the case.
The Arabs and the Turks came into Africa and western Asia from the central Asian steppes - they are not the people who originally lived in Anatolia and north Africa. The advent of easier intercontinental travel has necessarily increased the pace of the natural migration of populations, but it hasn't reduced it.
If you live in a country where the "indigenous" population has a lower rate of growth than the newcomers, guess what? You're facing an eventual situation in which your culture will become the minority one unless you reduce the number of immigrants with either barriers (literal and figurative) or by easing the motivation for moving in the first place: wars or economic hardship.
This. Very much, this. It may help that I live in a country that has seen more invasions than a cheap brothel: the Greeks, the Celts, the Romans, the Germans, the Byzantines, the Franks, the Normans, the Arabs, the Spanish, the French, the Austrians, just to name a few. So every times somebody raises his voice to defend "Italian ethnicity", I have to laugh.
How old are you?
He's ancient, and forever. He burns at the centre of time and can see the turn of the universe.
And, he's wonderful.
And, he's wonderful.
I am not believing a staate is unchanging nor am I afraid of my own culture vanishing away or whatever, because of other cultures moving in. So please don´t put things in my mouth, that I have not said. The only thing I say is that immigration is NOT having cultures living seperated from each other in one country, but having cultures living together, interacting with each other and mix.
However learning the main-language of the country I move too is a form of showing interest and be able to interact with the others to become an integrated part of the society I decidet to be part of. Of course that is sort of visa versa. While the natives can not learn all the languages the immigrants bring with them, they can show interest too and can learn some words and phrases and of course learn one or two languages next to their native one, which is the case anyway (here and I think in many other countries as well).
Immigration needs interest and open-minds from both "sides" to truly work. And thats a way to prevent the development of strong prejudices, hatred of each other etc. too.
TerokNor
I don't see why that's the case, nor why it's regarded as bad or somehow "abnormal" that people who have emigrated to a country might gather with others of their own kind. It's not just because of fear of prejudice but to ease transition by surrounding themselves with the familiar.
I think it's unreasonable to expect recent immigrants, who - especially if they're refugees - didn't necessarily "choose" their new home to make integration a priority.
Back to the pile!
I'd like to put forth an example. It's not even a made-up one--it's something that really does happen, and I'm curious to know how those who want strict immigration law enforcement would deal with it.
Say a family comes to the US illegally from Mexico. They have two kids already. They come here and have two more. So, now you've got two parents who are not citizens, two kids who are not citizens, and two kids who are citizens. However, all four kids grow up here and think of themselves as Americans, speak both English and Spanish fluently, and want nothing more than to stay here, go to school, get jobs, and have good careers.
What do you do with families like this? The second you find out about them, deport the lot? Just the non-citizens, putting the other kids in foster care? What?
I ask because some people still speak of illegal immigration as though it's possible in any way to deport over 10 million people. I think we have to deal with the reality of it instead, meaning most of the people who have come here came to work and build lives for themselves, not engage in criminal activities.
So, those who favor strict immigration law enforcement, deportation, etc., how would you deal with this?
It is nothing abnormal for one to like to have something familiar and I don´t say a X family who moves here has to surround itself only with Y families from now on. Of course they can have contact with other X families and speak X with each other etc. But what should not happen, especially when family X is a family who wants to make a new life in country Y is, that between X and Y is no bridge at all. X has the possibility to learn new things from Y and Y has the possibility to learn new things from X, some one may like and adopt, others not. However if you have a wall between X and Y, while they actually live under the same government, that very likely will cause problems later on.
Don´t know how it is in Scotland, but in Germany we do have prime examples in some cities of failed immigration. For example second immigration generations who never learned any German, before coming to school, because their parents cannot speak it either. What happens in school? The language taught in is in most cases German. The kids loose connection to what is taught fast, get demotivated, get bad grades, do not finish school, cannot find a job therefore etc. The Staate gives them money, the natives get angry saying: They just came here to get money from the staate, money I pay. And what we have is hatred and youths who never had a true chance, who may turn to crime and violence, because of no perspectives and frustration and boredom.
Now is the solution to have seperated schools for each culture? Not really, because then the others don´t know the others and prejudiuces can grow.
Now you could say, but why should German in Germany be the more important language than don´t know spanish. All languages are important. Yes they are. But in Germany German happens to be the main language, so many things just are done in German, just as in other countries other languages function as main language. Of course it is also important to have certain informations available in other languages. For example here many information today are available also in turkey, because we have so many people from turkey living here. But a teacher in school for example can not say a sentences in German and than repeat it in every language that may be spoken by the children.
Anyway...do you get my point?
TerokNor
Scotland is too small for ghettos to remain after the first generation. About 20 years ago, the head rabbi in Scotland wrote an article in one of the national papers pointing out that integration had done more to damage the cultural identity of Scottish Jews than any pogrom could have achieved. In short, they married 'outside' and so their offspring were once removed from their culture and so on.
In Glasgow especially, there is a large Pakistani community. They do have a cohesive and sustained culture but there again it has been Scotticised for want of a better word. There are still women who don't speak English but their children always do because it's in their culture for children to do well at school. So nobody who goes through the school system in Scotland is not integrated in this way. I doubt your model is actually the case in Germany either.
Your question about separated schools is interesting because the only state run denominational schools in the UK are Roman Catholic. The Muslims would dearly like this distinction too but have so far failed. So, like other denominations, they have to run private schools if they have the means. In Glasgow there is only one state run girls' school left (all the private schools are now co-ed) and it is an RC High school. A big chunk of the school roll is Muslim because it fits in with their culture for girls to be educated separately and also ironically because it is a faith school and Muslims think this is also more in keeping with their culture. The school welcomes them because it keeps the numbers up too high for the Council to close it.
The majority of opinion in Scotland thinks denominational schools are a huge mistake which should be undone because the only real bigotry in this country is religious and it is a huge problem.
As far as immigrants go, everyone is welcome mainly because so few people want to settle here. It's not high on any immigrant's list of desirable destinations.
In Glasgow especially, there is a large Pakistani community. They do have a cohesive and sustained culture but there again it has been Scotticised for want of a better word. There are still women who don't speak English but their children always do because it's in their culture for children to do well at school. So nobody who goes through the school system in Scotland is not integrated in this way. I doubt your model is actually the case in Germany either.
Your question about separated schools is interesting because the only state run denominational schools in the UK are Roman Catholic. The Muslims would dearly like this distinction too but have so far failed. So, like other denominations, they have to run private schools if they have the means. In Glasgow there is only one state run girls' school left (all the private schools are now co-ed) and it is an RC High school. A big chunk of the school roll is Muslim because it fits in with their culture for girls to be educated separately and also ironically because it is a faith school and Muslims think this is also more in keeping with their culture. The school welcomes them because it keeps the numbers up too high for the Council to close it.
The majority of opinion in Scotland thinks denominational schools are a huge mistake which should be undone because the only real bigotry in this country is religious and it is a huge problem.
As far as immigrants go, everyone is welcome mainly because so few people want to settle here. It's not high on any immigrant's list of desirable destinations.
Clearly the state needs to make more of an effort to make German education available and outreach to the local non-German-speaking community via classes, etc. This may already exist, but clearly transmission is a problem. Bilingual education in the schools might be a good way to go since the Turks are a significant minority in Germany.
Yes, I get your point.
^
^
Racial differences are sometimes easier to discern than others like culture and religion.
I think that people would do better to focus on poverty as the dividing issue. Finding a way to eradicate poverty and it's ilk - ignorance and fear -will do more to equalize people of color, imho.
Wealthy politicans and their CEO friends have everything to gain from uneducated workers who will take any job. This seems to be a global issue, not just an American issue.
^Racial differences are sometimes easier to discern than others like culture and religion.
I think that people would do better to focus on poverty as the dividing issue. Finding a way to eradicate poverty and it's ilk - ignorance and fear -will do more to equalize people of color, imho.
Wealthy politicans and their CEO friends have everything to gain from uneducated workers who will take any job. This seems to be a global issue, not just an American issue.
Overseas workers preferred to unskilled school leavers in job market
And that's from The Guardian, not the Daily Heil. Also the UK's mass importing and mass exploitation of cheaper workers has taken a toll, when 30% of deaths are allegedly suicides amongst Polish workers (think Foxconn in China). I don't blame immigration in of itself for the imminent destruction of the British and American economies, but the way it's been mismanaged and taken advantage of by Western oligarchs has hastened the West's current race to the bottom (also housing shortages and strained public services people!).
I'm curious, what are the requirements for German citizenship? Here in Canada, to become a citizen, you must have at least basic fluency in either English or French before you can become a Canadian citizen. So what we tend to have is large communities that often speak their own language and retain much of their culture, but who are able to communicate and integrate well with the rest of the population.
Here in Ottawa, for example, we have the largest Lebanese community in North America. It's pretty common to hear folks speaking in Arabic around the city (I suspect it's probably the third-most common language, after English and French), but I've never encountered a situation where I couldn't have a conversation with someone Lebanese. Hell, I think I'm more likely to have communication issues with the Quebecois than someone Lebanese.
It depends. Generally, you do need to prove some fluency in German nowadays. I think there's some leeway with family reunions and also with spouses.
I'm pretty sure that nearly all the people who are actually citizens and live here do speak German to some degree. It can be pretty broken in the case of first generation immigrants. Due to the intricacies of citizenship law a lot of immigrants, even second and third generation, aren't citizens.
I had a hard time today explaining some basic things to one of the patients at my work place today because his German is so bad. That happens occasionally. Basic fluency can be very basic and so basic that communication beyond very simple exchanges becomes virtually impossible. I guess that's what TerokNor meant.
I'm pretty sure that nearly all the people who are actually citizens and live here do speak German to some degree. It can be pretty broken in the case of first generation immigrants. Due to the intricacies of citizenship law a lot of immigrants, even second and third generation, aren't citizens.
I had a hard time today explaining some basic things to one of the patients at my work place today because his German is so bad. That happens occasionally. Basic fluency can be very basic and so basic that communication beyond very simple exchanges becomes virtually impossible. I guess that's what TerokNor meant.
Similar threads
