My Little Grudge Against Rigel

[Nerys Myk]

If their purpose was to save the Native North Americans from the Europeans, why didn't they save all them? What made just those few worth saving, rather than all the others, with their wide variety of cultures and customs and histories?

Omly the writers know.

But to speculate, there might be more tribes elsewhere on the planet or on other planets.
If you mean taking the entire Native populations of North and South America to other worlds, that might be beyond the Preservers abilities.

 

[Christopher]

But to speculate, there might be more tribes elsewhere on the planet or on other planets.
If you mean taking the entire Native populations of North and South America to other worlds, that might be beyond the Preservers abilities.

Sure, it's quite possible there are other Preserver-seeded worlds. I tend to assume the Roman planet in "Bread and Circuses" might be one, since the "Hodgkins' Law" explanation is nonsense. Of course, that would push their activities back 2000 years instead of a few hundred, but that's still more plausible than assuming they were some immeasurably ancient race from millions of years ago -- or that they were the same race as the First Humanoids from "The Chase," as many people bizarrely assume, since obviously there were not Native Americans 4 billion years ago.

Really, though, the idea of the Preservers as a "race" makes no sense to me, regardless of what Spock said. An entire species, an entire civilization, doesn't devote itself to a single activity. If anything, the Preservers seem more like they should be an organization or society, something like Greenpeace. So they could have members from multiple species/civilizations.

 

[Ithekro]

The Preservers stood in a long chain around the Sol system to stop the intergalactic super warp way system from blowing up the system for three thousand years until the contractor finally lost his bid in court and had to re-plot the path through the Gamma Quadrant. Made the Changelings restless though.

 

[Timewalker]

Omly the writers know.

But to speculate, there might be more tribes elsewhere on the planet or on other planets.
If you mean taking the entire Native populations of North and South America to other worlds, that might be beyond the Preservers abilities.

The cultural anthropology courses I took in college were focused on the Native North Americans - from Central America to the Arctic. There were some very different cultures among them - different forms of government, architecture, attitudes toward war and commerce, a wide variety of religions... if a group such as the Preservers wanted to preserve these peoples from the Europeans, they should have taken more than just a relative few.

I don't think there would have been other tribes on that planet, unless they also had an asteroid-repelling obelisk. I suppose they could have and theirs worked. But if the point was to preserve these people, then putting different tribes that may not have been compatible with each other on the same planet would be a recipe for eventual war.

Sure, it's quite possible there are other Preserver-seeded worlds. I tend to assume the Roman planet in "Bread and Circuses" might be one, since the "Hodgkins' Law" explanation is nonsense.

Why would the Romans need preserving? It's not like they were ever in danger of extinction. The Roman civilization lasted, in some form, for over 2000 years.

 

[Nerys Myk]

The cultural anthropology courses I took in college were focused on the Native North Americans - from Central America to the Arctic. There were some very different cultures among them - different forms of government, architecture, attitudes toward war and commerce, a wide variety of religions... if a group such as the Preservers wanted to preserve these peoples from the Europeans, they should have taken more than just a relative few.

As I sugested they could have placed other tribes on different worlds.

I don't think there would have been other tribes on that planet, unless they also had an asteroid-repelling obelisk. I suppose they could have and theirs worked. But if the point was to preserve these people, then putting different tribes that may not have been compatible with each other on the same planet would be a recipe for eventual war.

Whivh why spreading them out to other world's would be a good idea.
Abd let's face it, the writers probably didn't but a lot of thought into which tribes and why. They did some hand wave about the ones mentioned as being "peaceful" and that was it.

Why would the Romans need preserving? It's not like they were ever in danger of extinction. The Roman civilization lasted, in some form, for over 2000 years.

They seemed to be from the Western Empire, so I guess the Preservers thought they were "endangered" enough in the 5th Century to warrant a rescue.

 

[Ithekro]

The Children of the Son seems to hold out even then.

 

[Nerys Myk]

The Children of the Son seems to hold out even then.

Which kind puts a hole in my scenario since Christianity became the "state religion" of the Empire a Century or so before the fall.
I'm gonna stick with "Terra Roma" being an Earth that slipped through a dimensional rift into "our" universe.

 

[Ithekro]

Or they took them at an earlier point (Roman Republic era maybe) and the Empire still developed per normal, and yet still had a religious encounter of some kind that sparked a Christian-like religion. Or they thought Rome burning during the days of Nero, and that time would end it all. Better to be safe that sorry.

 

[Timewalker]

Or they took them at an earlier point (Roman Republic era maybe) and the Empire still developed per normal, and yet still had a religious encounter of some kind that sparked a Christian-like religion. Or they thought Rome burning during the days of Nero, and that time would end it all. Better to be safe that sorry.

Saving some of them from the Great Fire would make sense. Or maybe they saved some from Pompeii. Basically any time from the last 7 years of Tiberius' reign through the end of the first century would work.

 

[Timo]

The observed actions of the Preservers go against the concept of "saving", "protecting" or "preserving" in basically every respect. They kidnap people who aren't in any particular danger, force them to live in conditions where their traditional ways cannot survive, and indeed place their very lives at constant risk.

Which suggests that the stuff about preservation was

1) a filthy lie, the kidnappers' version of Arbeit Macht Frei scribbled onto one of their instruments of oppression for sadistic fun,
2) a mistranslation by our inept First Officer, or
3) an accurate description of what the real Preservers were doing, carefully printed on the side of one of their protective devices that the ruthless kidnappers stole for use in their evil schemes...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Timewalker]

The observed actions of the Preservers go against the concept of "saving", "protecting" or "preserving" in basically every respect. They kidnap people who aren't in any particular danger, force them to live in conditions where their traditional ways cannot survive, and indeed place their very lives at constant risk.

Which suggests that the stuff about preservation was

1) a filthy lie, the kidnappers' version of Arbeit Macht Frei scribbled onto one of their instruments of oppression for sadistic fun,
2) a mistranslation by our inept First Officer, or
3) an accurate description of what the real Preservers were doing, carefully printed on the side of one of their protective devices that the ruthless kidnappers stole for use in their evil schemes...

Timo Saloniemi

Or the Preservers are basically like the Talosians: They're zookeepers, but instead of using small cages, they use whole planets.

 

[Christopher]

I'm gonna stick with "Terra Roma" being an Earth that slipped through a dimensional rift into "our" universe.

That was how I explained Miri's world in Department of Temporal Investigations: Forgotten History. It doesn't actually work for the Roman planet, because we saw it from space and it didn't have the same continents as Earth -- not to mention that it's explicitly planet IV of star system 892, not planet III.

And of course, none of it explains how they speak 20th-century English. You don't get English without the combined influence of Latin, French, Anglo-Saxon, Norse, and various other inputs. A Preserver-settled Roman population wouldn't have had any of those, and an alternate Earth where Rome never fell would've had them interact differently so that the languages would evolve differently. (Could there have been a Norman conquest of England had it still been the Roman province of Britannia?)

 

[Nerys Myk]

That was how I explained Miri's world in Department of Temporal Investigations: Forgotten History. It doesn't actually work for the Roman planet, because we saw it from space and it didn't have the same continents as Earth -- not to mention that it's explicitly planet IV of star system 892, not planet III.

And of course, none of it explains how they speak 20th-century English. You don't get English without the combined influence of Latin, French, Anglo-Saxon, Norse, and various other inputs. A Preserver-settled Roman population wouldn't have had any of those, and an alternate Earth where Rome never fell would've had them interact differently so that the languages would evolve differently. (Could there have been a Norman conquest of England had it still been the Roman province of Britannia?)

Yeah, I'm aware of all of that. But that's my story and I'm sticking to it!

 

[Shawnster]

Again, I'm not "assuming," I'm reasoning.

You are reasoning as a human with an obvious bias or cultural influence. You are allowing your own knowledge of Earth events to color your conclusion.

It's explicit in the episode itself

Nowhere in the episode is it explicitly stated the cultures chosen were preserved in order to save them from European aggression or disease. The reason for this group of humanity being chosen is never stated. You are filling in the blanks with your own knowledge and outlook.

And that's fine. We all do that. I just see the episode differently.

You also keep coming back to proving the date when these humans were first abducted. I don't care. I've not questioned that date. I don't argue that point.

I'm arguing the reason you reach for these human being chosen. Without any data from the episode, your idea is just as valid as someone else who feels these Native Americans were chosen because the Preservers only focused on the North American continent. At the time in question, these were some of the typical human culture samples available in North America.

As Timewalker asked, why preserve these cultures and not the Aztecs, Inca, Maya, or any other South American cultures. Why not preserve any African cultures? European aggression and disease threatened pretty much the entire globe.

Why should aliens even care about these particular cultures from becoming extinct and needing preserved? The reasons you give are valid from a human standpoint. Aliens might have an entirely different line of thought and reason for choosing whom they chose.

 

[Nerys Myk]

You are reasoning as a human with an obvious bias or cultural influence. You are allowing your own knowledge of Earth events to color your conclusion.




Nowhere in the episode is it explicitly stated the cultures chosen were preserved in order to save them from European aggression or disease. The reason for this group of humanity being chosen is never stated. You are filling in the blanks with your own knowledge and outlook.

And that's fine. We all do that. I just see the episode differently.

You also keep coming back to proving the date when these humans were first abducted. I don't care. I've not questioned that date. I don't argue that point.

I'm arguing the reason you reach for these human being chosen. Without any data from the episode, your idea is just as valid as someone else who feels these Native Americans were chosen because the Preservers only focused on the North American continent. At the time in question, these were the typical human culture samples available in North America.

As Timewalker asked, why preserve these cultures and not the Aztecs, Inca, Maya, or any other South American cultures. Why not preserve any African cultures? European aggression and disease threatened pretty much the entire globe.

Why should aliens even care about these particular cultures from becoming extinct and needing preserved? The reasons you give are valid from a human standpoint. Aliens might have an entirely different line of thought and reason for choosing whom they chose.

I think the writers expect the audience to know why they were saved without explicitly stating it. They and the intended audience are human and more importantly Americans with a basic ( if romanticized) knowledge of history. They weren't going for some exotic unfathomable motivations behind the Preservers action.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I had the impression that the writers wanted to use star names that would be more familiar to the audience. Of course, most of those are the really bright ones

That's perfectly reasonable.

Conversely, these stars are the easiest for a script writer searching for the real name of a real star to look up. An encyclopedia will do.

 

[Christopher]

You are reasoning as a human with an obvious bias or cultural influence. You are allowing your own knowledge of Earth events to color your conclusion.

Since when was reasoning from actual knowledge of the subject under consideration a bad thing??

Nowhere in the episode is it explicitly stated the cultures chosen were preserved in order to save them from European aggression or disease.

It was stated that they rescued cultures in danger of extinction. The causes you mention are the only phenomena that would've simultaneously put all three of the cultures referenced in danger of extinction. Particularly since one of the cultures referenced did not exist prior to 1600, which should in and of itself conclusively mark the earliest possible date of their relocation. The point I am making is simply that the Preservers are known to have been active in this millennium. That is unambiguous. Therefore, it is illogical to assume, as so many fans have done, that they were some ancient race that died out thousands or millions of years ago. Native American civilization in any form only dates back maybe 12-14,000 years across most of the continent, and anatomically modern Homo sapiens is only 40,000 years old, so the desire of some fans to see the Preservers as being millions or billions of years old is completely bizarre.

As Timewalker asked, why preserve these cultures and not the Aztecs, Inca, Maya, or any other South American cultures. Why not preserve any African cultures? European aggression and disease threatened pretty much the entire globe.

Why in the world do you assume they didn't? Once again, you're making an assumption that's contradicted by the explicit dialogue in the episode:

McCoy: "I've always wondered why there were so many humanoids scattered through the galaxy."
Spock: "So have I. Apparently the Preservers account for a number of them."

So we've known all along that the Preservers seeded multiple worlds. It stands to reason that each one is inhabited by a different culture.

Why should aliens even care about these particular cultures from becoming extinct and needing preserved? The reasons you give are valid from a human standpoint. Aliens might have an entirely different line of thought and reason for choosing whom they chose.

"They passed through the galaxy rescuing primitive cultures which were in danger of extinction." Spock's own words based on his translation of the Preserver texts. You're not arguing with me now, you're arguing with Spock.

 

[Ithekro]

Could the Preservers and the Sky People that Chakotay's people encountered in the long past and in the Delta Quadrant be the same species?

 

[Timo]

Rather than postulate natural evolution in cases like pseudo-Rome, it's probably much easier to postulate a repeat of "Patterns of Force". A power-mad individual from outer space and possibly also from the future would exploit his superior technological means to pervert an entire planet (or at least its leading population group) to serve his interests without excessively blatant trappings of slavery and servitude - by evoking a totalitarian system that worked well on Earth. He'd save on creative costs by adopting past uniforms and banners, too. And central to his meddling would be the introduction of Newspeak, resulting in the utterly unnatural adoption of English worldwide.

In some cases, the meddler would be hanged, drawn and quartered before his influence fully settled in. In others, the legacy would live on - and since the culture forcibly introduced would be an advanced "20th century plus" one, it would also be a formally enduring one, with little language erosion or loss of imagery thanks to advanced recording technologies.

Star Trek would then have plenty of excuses for what we see. Planets would be Earthlike because of a self-feeding terraforming craze that has gone on for billions of years. Cultures would be Earthlike because of meddlers from Earth. Isolated population groups would be Earthlike because they are the descendants of slaves abducted from Earth. Only in desperate cases like "Miri" would an actual duplication of our homeworld by suitably fantastic means be the preferred explanation.

Naturally, the above would also often happen with Earth replaced by Andor or Zontar. But both Andorians and Zontarans would live on Earthlike planets because galactic terraforming would gyrate towards a single standard. And the audience would simply fail to recognize the blatantly obvious Andorian costumes or Zontaran catchphrases used by the poor corrupted natives because the audience comes from Earth.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Ithekro]

Most of those random Earth-like planets that have a similar culture to old Earth, I would imagine are using a different language, but the universal translators are working for both the Enterprise's crew and us the audience.

The Roman peoples should be speaking a Latin based language if they are originally from Earth, and the culture influenced by a Federation Historian should be speaking German, if they adapted the Nazi culture entirely.

Miri's World is the only one that is basically exactly like Earth, so Miri's people speaking English isn't that far gone. The Koms and the Yangs though...with the brutalized US Constitution...that is something else. That makes at least four parallel worlds along the same lines as Earth.