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My Gripes with STID!

Kirk asked Chekov about shadowing Scotty in Engineering before telling him to put on the red shirt. If Chekov is the Big Damn Genius and Kirk trusts him and knows what the kid can do, why not put him in the position? It's not unlike what Pike did with Kirk.

Ha! Except of course that neither Chekov or Kirk should have been promoted like that.

It's one thing to thrust a person into a role out of necessity and see them succeed against the odds - a huge number of Hollywood movies are founded on such a trope.

It's another thing for the establishment to endorse that position permanently despite there being hundreds, if not thousands, of more experienced personnel in line for such a position. In this context one level of realism is stripped away and the story takes a step towards being more childish (albeit we have to concede that there are various layers of realism in any trashy sci fi franchise).

For my part, there were numerous, far more plausible ways to make Kirk the captain (passage of time being the simplest), and to make use of Chekov as a character (he can be an engineering liaison without being appointed chief engineer). The writers had various options but they chose to go for ones that were, in my view, more childish than some of the others. It is a legitimate gripe.
 
Nice try but no. But you get an A for effort.

As I already stated, the pivotal plot point(s--and cause of Khan's hatred--occurred completely off-camera. . . . This would have been no different if they made up a bad guy of their own, and audiences would have perceived him any different from just about every other one-off movie bad guy who, told his story . . . and set out for revenge.

Any perceived "significance" to the use of Khan is solely due to existing emotional attachment to the character.

You seem to want to have it both ways here. Khan had an emotional significance to the audience they were exploiting but his prior history made no difference and had no bearing on anything? This is self-contradictory and doesn't work. Yes, the story's prior events obviously happened off-screen; and yes, that particular character and his history were chosen because they weren't interchangeable with another random character.

The Nemesis example is so tangled in fallacy, I'm not going to dignify it with a response.

GIF-bfd-bitch-please-Come-on-incredulous-Obama-so-what-what-whatever-WTF-yeah-right-GIF.gif


:shrug:

All parts of this statement are demonstrably false.
How exactly?

The character's "superior intellect" was necessary to his ability to menace and nearly kill Kirk & Co. with Starfleet's own hardware (including the Genesis thingamajig).

The character's strength was necessary to his ability to capture and intimidate Chekov and his captain and turn them into his instruments (though they didn't expend time on having him punch people).

The character's ethnic background isn't specifically mentioned, but his background more generally is certainly relevant, since his past as an exotic ancient prince (mentioned by Khan himself in his first appearance) sets up from the outset the rationale for his followers' fatalistic loyalty to him ("sworn to live and die at my command two hundred years before you were born"), which is necessary to the rest of the plot. They don't mention his Sikh heritage specifically but they don't have to, it was the "ancient prince" trait that was centrally important to the character to begin with, anyone remembering the specifics was a bonus.
 
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I don't have a problem with dad-who-blows-himself-up from a world-building standpoint. "Optimism" or not, a Star Trek villain who could coerce or manipulate people into dark and desperate acts isn't a bad idea in itself. But the way it happens is pretty hard to explain, because AFAICS Khan has no leverage after he cures the girl; there is really nothing to prevent the dad from pretending to agree to the bombing, waiting for the confirmation of the cure and then simply turning him in*. One rather has to squint at that.

(* At least nothing obvious onscreen, I'm sure there's some attempt at an explanation floating around in a novel or a comic or an interview or something.)

Do we really need this type of handholding in a movie? Khan likely threatened to rip her heart out while he watched if he were to double-cross him.
 
Do we really need this type of handholding in a movie?

A little "handholding" to sell a foundational plot point probably wouldn't go entirely amiss, yeah. :D It's comparatively a more minor nitpick for me than some of the other stuff, though.
 
It's another thing for the establishment to endorse that position permanently despite there being hundreds, if not thousands, of more experienced personnel in line for such a position.

All of whom no one cares about.

In this context one level of realism is stripped away and the story takes a step towards being more childish (albeit we have to concede that there are various layers of realism in any trashy sci fi franchise).

Star Trek pretty much laughs in the face of realism, pretty much has for about the last 50 years.

Case in point the fact that the federation hasn't been obliterated by now and humanity either enslaved or wiped out given how incompetent Starfleet became over the years.

Honestly this goes to the reason behind my gripe with the Kirk having to prove he should be captain is that they aren't moving past the origin story and on to the the having adventures part.
 
Wow, I totally misread the context previously. Sorry. I don't know where my mind was at but I applied your concern to George Kirk killing himself to save his wife and son in Star Trek 11.

But, anyway, yes, agreed about THAT father and child, his daughter. Another point of support for the self-describing title of STID (Darkness) and being not about the optimism we've come to understand about Star Trek.
Optimism still doesn't mean bad thing don't happen or people aren't forced to do bad things for good reasons. Our heroes are still the good guys. They still believe in what's right. But they are human (even the ones who aren't), they make mistakes and they learn from those mistakes*. That's Star Trek, not some pie in sky Utopian fantasy.


*Archer was right.
 
LoB does have a point - perhaps nuChekov will be the designated problem solver/fill in guy.
To be fair, he did kind of have that role on TOS: he seemed to be something of a 'jack of all trades'. But I do think sending him all the way down to engineering, when that department should have a whole bunch of engineers who are specialised in their job and are in a line of succession behind Scotty, is a real wtf moment.
Presumably all Scotty's subordinates have other jobs to do. Promoting one of them will leave another vacant position. Of course I guess they could promote everyone up the line, leaving clear the position of bolt-tightener#12, which role could be filled by Chekov. But the role into which Chekov was cast was surely more of a management/oversight role which didn't necessarily demand technical expertise.

tie up loose end:

Explaining to the family why their father killed himself and all those other people, and whose influence he was under.

Must nothing be left to the audience's imagination?
 
You seem to want to have it both ways here. Khan had an emotional significance to the audience they were exploiting but his prior history made no difference and had no bearing on anything?
I didn't say anything, I said the plot. The plot is not the audience. The two are mutually exclusive.

The argument is STiD would have been the same movie if they didn't use Khan. My point is so would TWOK. Everything that happened to Khan in the film and his whole reason for hating Kirk could just as easily work for Bob in accounting.

The history relevant to the film was all made up for the film. It could have just as easily been stamped on someone else they'd made up on the spot. The only thing that would have to be changed would be a few lines of exposition. 95% of the film could remain completely as is.

The fact of the matter is, as a villain, Khan is very cookie-cutter, even in 1982. They're a million great things about TWOK. The villain isn't one of them. Conceptually, he's a disaster, mired in cliché and one-dimensional absurdity. The character stands solely on Montalban's outstanding performance. Take that away, and Khan is kind of a joke.

His entire scheme is prodded along by one of the most contrived (and ridiculous) sequence of events in film history:

Planet blows up. (Because planets do that.) Adjacent planet chances orbit. (They do that to.)

Everything on other planet dies except dude, his henchmen, and some slugs, despite there not being any water.

Wait. Scratch that. One of his henchmen did die. Unfortunately it was his wife. :(

Some years later, two morons who couldn't find their ass in the dark stumble upon the planet.

One of the morons had previously been (apparently) in the that solar system. The way he tells the story, it must have been a pretty significant event in his life.

Yet, knowing dude and his henchmen were in the neighborhood, he and the other moron beam to the (Hostile) planet without any support or armed escort.

They get over-powered by the superior number of forces. Coulda used a red shirt or two.

Remember those slugs? They can brainwash people! Isn't that cool?

Turns out, the two morons were on a mission to find a project site for a devise that can be used as the most powerful WMD in history.

You don't think Bob from accounting could pull all that off? I do. I have faith in him.

The rest of the film is just Khan chasing after Kirk, in a game of Who's the More Incompetent Cat and Mouse? (Patent pending.)

Seriously. Bob from accounting has got this.

But we ignore all that nonsense because of the brilliance that comes later: the drama, the suspense, the music, and Shatner and Monty's performances. Things is those things all stand on their own after most people have forgotten all about Kirk and Khan's pasts, because they don't really matter. And if someone were to take Montalban's performance and stuff it in a Bob from accounting suit (They sell them at Spencer's.) and all the other great elements from the movie stay the same, no one would even notice the absence.

The reasons why Khan was left on the planet and that specific history with Kirk are all trivial and could easily be replaced with a any number of infinite different histories.

Heck, what if the franchise started with TWOK--the exact same film, in every single detail? There would be none of the pre-existing history, canon, or any of that crap. Would it been seen as any lesser of a film? Does its quality only stand up because of "Space Seed?" No.

And it's silly to think Sowards and Meyer would be incapable of creating an equal but completely different biography for the would-be villain. Granted, a few lines of dialog would have to changed to make it fit, but we're only talking five or ten.

Bob screws up Kirk's taxes, so Kirk banishes Bob's entire firm to a plant and the neighboring planet blows up. Mrs. Bob dies as a result. In his free time, Bob dabbles in chess, reads Dickens, Proust, and Melville, and contemplates overthrowing the world order. Oh. And plays with his slugs.

Obviously, I'm taking things tot he absurd here. But the point is there isn't a lot going on conceptually, such that, had TWOK been the start of the franchise, Sowards could have just snatched some ideas from other genre baddies, tossed them in a blender and poured what came out into a sippy cup for Monty to gargle--and we'd still have a great film and be none the wiser.

Butttt... There was a backstory to pick from. And they had a chance to use a great actor. It made the backstory easier and had the benefit of potentially putting extra butts in seats. So why not? The choice was not, however, in any way necessary.

In other words, they used Khan for pecuniary and practicality reasons rather than artistic ones.

Just like...

Bad Robot used Khan for pecuniary and practicality reasons rather than artistic ones. (Of course, I could argue that the way Abrams directed the film, the choice for Khan did have artistic merit. But that's a discussion for it's own thread ... and I digress.)

The character's "superior intellect" was necessary to his ability to menace and nearly kill Kirk & Co. with Starfleet's own hardware (including the Genesis thingamajig).
Between the staff of minions and the brainwashed dynamic duo telling him what buttons to push, Bob could have done just as well driving the bucket. David got Genesis all ready for him. This really isn't as extraordinary as some make it out to be.

The character's strength was necessary to his ability to capture and intimidate Chekov and his captain and turn them into his instruments (though they didn't expend time on having him punch people).
The fact he and his crew out number the dynamic duo by four or five to one didn't hurt either.


The character's ethnic background isn't specifically mentioned, but his background more generally is certainly relevant, since his past as an exotic ancient prince (mentioned by Khan himself in his first appearance) sets up from the outset the rationale for his followers' fatalistic loyalty to him ("sworn to live and die at my command two hundred years before you were born"), which is necessary to the rest of the plot. They don't mention his Sikh heritage specifically but they don't have to, it was the "ancient prince" trait that was centrally important to the character to begin with, anyone remembering the specifics was a bonus.
Because every gang leader, hillbilly, bible thumping anarchist cult leader, and dictator in history was a superhuman former prince. Some people are born leaders. While, it's not average, it's certainly not extraordinary. It's also pretty standard fare for movie baddies.

And the fatalistic loyalty isn't anything not found in your run-of-the-mill Stormtrooper or Blofeldie. To suggest that the guys and gal standing at the terminals in the back of the bridge were anything more than Generic Henchies One, Two, and Three is a bit disingenuous. No one cares who, what, or why they're there.
 
:lol: Mostly still wrong but I'll give you points for style.

Be a while until I can reply in more detail, but I'll try to get there.
 
Reply to CorporalClegg (no way am I going to quote it):

Next thing you know, you'll be saying Michael Jackson could have made a Wizard of Oz movie in New York. It's easy to trivialize and diminish any story the way you have. It says nothing special in this instance that couldn't be applied to just about anything.

But I agree that in STID, it is extremely easy to get rid of Khan and just stay with Harrison as a Marcus pawn. It would probably be a win to lose the entire TWOK parallel.
 
Reply to CorporalClegg (no way am I going to quote it):

Next thing you know, you'll be saying Michael Jackson could have made a Wizard of Oz movie in New York. It's easy to trivialize and diminish any story the way you have. It says nothing special in this instance that couldn't be applied to just about anything.

But I agree that in STID, it is extremely easy to get rid of Khan and just stay with Harrison as a Marcus pawn. It would probably be a win to lose the entire TWOK parallel.
When I was a kid, my friends and I made good use of our Slip and Slides. We all had one so we daisy chained them together with tarps and usually use more than one hose. Our whole backyard was one giant hill. Usually we stuck to the north end where it was shallow.

However, one year my dad built a compost at the bottom of the steep (south) end. So, one particularly hot summer afternoon, we set up this huge long chain of slides and pointed right at the heap, thinking it would soften the landing.

We slipped, we slided, strait down the slope in to a giant, steaming pile of shit.

We thought we were cleaver.
 
Oookay.

Um. I was coming back to try to reply to that long post from Clegg but that last one has kinda taken a turn for the weird? And so I think I'll keep this brief and then bow out.

I think JWPlatt is correct that you're basically engaged in a fair amount of reductio ad absurdum of the "football is just kicking a ball down a field" variety there, and I'm going to forego line-by-line engagement with that because I think it's ultimately a distraction. Also, look, I'll just briefly go back to basics here, because in all fairness I think I've also been missing the forest for the trees. In terms of the integral importance of Khan as a character to The Wrath of Khan:

Forgotten Trek said:
Bennett watched all original Star Trek episodes in preparation for his task. His thrawl through the episodes provided him with what he had been looking for. He was determined that his movie would have something the first one lacked — a real villain. When he saw “Space Seed”, Bennett was struck by Ricardo Montalban’s performance as Khan and decided that he would make the perfect villain for the film.

Ultimately what the original choice of Khan brought that was integral to the part and the character was the actor who breathed life into the original character, Montalban. All the other details of which story beat rhymes with which and goes with who are secondary compared to that, and I think that's the central difference between "Wrath" Khan and the reboot version, which was brought in more as a marketing hook under the belief that "Khan is to Star Trek what the Joker is to Batman."

I think that's a better and more succinct explanation of where the differences lie, in particular in that Montalban's performance was the source of a specific set of identifying traits:

John Harrison clearly has an eidetic memory, but that was hardly a unique feature of Khan as a character, there are lots of hyper-intellectual villains; his intellect was part of a constellation of traits that included exoticism, arrogance and a hotheaded drive for power

... which shaped how the character was used onscreen. If you still don't see any differences I'm happy to agree to disagree. Have a nice evening.
 
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I went to see STID with my dad. He has never seen Space Seed or TWOK. And yet after we left the theater he wasn't like, "I didn't understand that villain at all because I didn't get his backstory." He was like, "That was a pretty cool movie for Star Trek."

YMMV.
 
I went to see STID with my dad. He has never seen Space Seed or TWOK. And yet after we left the theater he wasn't like, "I didn't understand that villain at all because I didn't get his backstory." He was like, "That was a pretty cool movie for Star Trek."

I think this is a big problem many fans are having. You no longer need to be part of a special club to enjoy Star Trek. The Abrams films have been made to be accessible by people who aren't decades deep in Trek lore. The films feel like Trek did in the 70's.

Seriously, when I go to see a non-Trek film, I don't need to have some big long history between the hero and villain.
 
I went to see STID with my dad. He has never seen Space Seed or TWOK. And yet after we left the theater he wasn't like, "I didn't understand that villain at all because I didn't get his backstory." He was like, "That was a pretty cool movie for Star Trek."

I think this is a big problem many fans are having. You no longer need to be part of a special club to enjoy Star Trek. The Abrams films have been made to be accessible by people who aren't decades deep in Trek lore. The films feel like Trek did in the 70's.

Seriously, when I go to see a non-Trek film, I don't need to have some big long history between the hero and villain.

I don't doubt there are some fans that are upset because they are no longer the keepers of the Special Knowledge of Saint Genus Roddenberius™, but seeing as this is a "gripe" thread, I am sure more than those type of fans are commenting here.

Captain Obvious wrote: It is possible to find a flaw i a film and still enjoy it. It is also possible to have a legitimate gripe about the film and not be a weirdo who wants everything to be exactly as it was in the past
 
The character's ethnic background isn't specifically mentioned, but his background more generally is certainly relevant, since his past as an exotic ancient prince

Yeah, becuase a white British guy totally couldn't be a prince

Oh, wait

You were saying.

Seriously being an ancient prince doesn't exactly scream exotic considering a couple of centuries ago Europe was crawling with them.
 
Where did it ever say (at least on screen) that Khan was a prince?

Edited to add: OK, in TWOK Khan did say he was a prince who had ruled millions. But that's still a very vague reference. There's a lot of room to "Brian Williams" what that really means. That could've been just his opinion of himself.
 
Where did it ever say (at least on screen) that Khan was a prince?

Edited to add: OK, in TWOK Khan did say he was a prince who had ruled millions. But that's still a very vague reference. There's a lot of room to "Brian Williams" what that really means. That could've been just his opinion of himself.
Khan always did have a rather high opinion of himself.

However, the "prince" line seems to me to be Khan's way of saying that he was on top and in charge; he was powerful in the way that a prince would have been in centuries past.
 
Where did it ever say (at least on screen) that Khan was a prince?

Edited to add: OK, in TWOK Khan did say he was a prince who had ruled millions. But that's still a very vague reference. There's a lot of room to "Brian Williams" what that really means. That could've been just his opinion of himself.
Khan always did have a rather high opinion of himself.

However, the "prince" line seems to me to be Khan's way of saying that he was on top and in charge; he was powerful in the way that a prince would have been in centuries past.

True. And certainly a better way to put it for him than to say that he was once a despot who had ruled millions.

He probably should've said, "I was a Khan who ruled millions." And one of his people would pipe up and say, "You certainly can Khan, Khan." :)
 
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