Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...
[ in a just and righteous world, anyway....]
[ in a just and righteous world, anyway....]
My Grievances of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...
- Thread starter Mycroft Maxwell
- Start date
Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...
If something is meant to be serious, then by definition it can't be camp. That the production values or directing style seem outdated or quaint by comparison to shows being produced now isn't enough; "camp" implies conscious and deliberate exaggeration - it winks at you and says "Yes, I know." The Batman TV series was nearly always camp, for example, but Gunsmoke, Bonanza, Big Valley, Rifleman, Perry Mason, Ironside, and the original Star Trek series were not (though one could reasonably argue that there were moments in Trek's "Trouble With Tribbles" or "Piece of the Action" or "I, Mudd" episodes which were played camp.)
Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...
I think TNG took itself far too seriously for a show about people flying through space wearing pajamas.
Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...
Meh, I've never cared for the paralytic fear of being seen Taking Itself Seriously that far too much SF still seems to have even today. If you're making a show about spacemen and aliens, the shameful secret of one's being a Huge Nerd is already out; doing your own premise the favour of taking it seriously is the least you can do.
Which doesn't mean you can't indulge a bit of humour on the side... but if you're going to be constantly trying to reassure viewers that you don't take your own show / movie seriously, they'll probably go elsewhere. Why should they invest anything in it if the creators are afraid to?
Meh, I've never cared for the paralytic fear of being seen Taking Itself Seriously that far too much SF still seems to have even today. If you're making a show about spacemen and aliens, the shameful secret of one's being a Huge Nerd is already out; doing your own premise the favour of taking it seriously is the least you can do.
Which doesn't mean you can't indulge a bit of humour on the side... but if you're going to be constantly trying to reassure viewers that you don't take your own show / movie seriously, they'll probably go elsewhere. Why should they invest anything in it if the creators are afraid to?
Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...
I think TOS did okay and it didn't go out of its way taking itself too seriously.
I think TOS did okay and it didn't go out of its way taking itself too seriously.
Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...
I dunno, I always kind of thought taking itself seriously was one of TOS' gutsiest moves. Even where a story idea was wacky ("A Piece of the Action"), comedic ("Trouble With Tribbles") or just completely insane, they never tried to wink-and-nudge at the audience at the expense of the show's premise; it was always played within the bounds of "this is totally a show about the adventures of Earth's Space Navy," even when doing so was kind of humiliating ("Spock's Brain").
I dunno, I always kind of thought taking itself seriously was one of TOS' gutsiest moves. Even where a story idea was wacky ("A Piece of the Action"), comedic ("Trouble With Tribbles") or just completely insane, they never tried to wink-and-nudge at the audience at the expense of the show's premise; it was always played within the bounds of "this is totally a show about the adventures of Earth's Space Navy," even when doing so was kind of humiliating ("Spock's Brain").
Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...
Which is why I said "too seriously". Yes, there are definitely serious undertones to TOS and the subject matter at times could be very grim. But it had a definite "space cowboys" vibe to it that made it infectiously fun to watch. No matter how bad an episode was, that vibe made it worth watching.
TNG and the other spin-offs never had that vibe. They were deadly serious pretty much all the time (especially after Roddenberry left). They played far more as a straight drama with sci-fi trappings than TOS did.
Which is why I said "too seriously". Yes, there are definitely serious undertones to TOS and the subject matter at times could be very grim. But it had a definite "space cowboys" vibe to it that made it infectiously fun to watch. No matter how bad an episode was, that vibe made it worth watching.
TNG and the other spin-offs never had that vibe. They were deadly serious pretty much all the time (especially after Roddenberry left). They played far more as a straight drama with sci-fi trappings than TOS did.
Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...
Don't bet on it, King Daniel.
Don't bet on it, King Daniel.
Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...
I remember when Riker told Captain Jellico in "Chain of Command" that Jellico was taking all the fun out of everything. To this day I remember saying to myself after hearing that line, "You mean you were having fun?" They certainly didn't show it, often.
Of course, the differences in tone don't mean one version is better than the other. On their own terms, I liked TNG and really liked DS9. But the different vibes the shows gave off could explain why some who grew up TNG era fans and don't really know or follow TOS have a tough time feeling that the Abrams movies have captured the spirit of TOS for so many of us old timers. Kirk is a bigger than life action figure. No other Trek character has come close, since. Frankly, that's why I had a tough time with ENT. Even Archer, who should've been as gung-ho and bigger than life for action as Kirk, paled in comparison to Kirk's "let's have an adventure" attitude.
I remember when Riker told Captain Jellico in "Chain of Command" that Jellico was taking all the fun out of everything. To this day I remember saying to myself after hearing that line, "You mean you were having fun?" They certainly didn't show it, often.
Of course, the differences in tone don't mean one version is better than the other. On their own terms, I liked TNG and really liked DS9. But the different vibes the shows gave off could explain why some who grew up TNG era fans and don't really know or follow TOS have a tough time feeling that the Abrams movies have captured the spirit of TOS for so many of us old timers. Kirk is a bigger than life action figure. No other Trek character has come close, since. Frankly, that's why I had a tough time with ENT. Even Archer, who should've been as gung-ho and bigger than life for action as Kirk, paled in comparison to Kirk's "let's have an adventure" attitude.
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...
Well, TNG did regularly show the crew hanging out in Ten Forward and/or subplots about socializing or indulgently guiding Data through his latest inquiry into humanity (the one where Holographic Joe Piscopo teaches him the meaning of comedy stands out in my mind). Not a habit of the show that I was all that into, really... but then I've recently discovered that there are also TNG fans who get chills from briefing-room scenes, so, different strokes.
Well, TNG did regularly show the crew hanging out in Ten Forward and/or subplots about socializing or indulgently guiding Data through his latest inquiry into humanity (the one where Holographic Joe Piscopo teaches him the meaning of comedy stands out in my mind). Not a habit of the show that I was all that into, really... but then I've recently discovered that there are also TNG fans who get chills from briefing-room scenes, so, different strokes.
While Kirk is undoubtedly a bigger-than-life action figure, I suspect these are separate questions. The feeling that the Abrams movies "captured the spirit" of TOS ain't exactly unanimous among TOS fans either, for varying reasons.
Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...
This is why I rank DS9 the best of all the spin-offs because that one wasn't afraid to get into the kind of comedic romps that TOS would have. I think TNG could have used more of that, though I understand Berman was very afraid of trying to do that because of earlier attempts like "The Naked Now" falling flat on its face. I don't put down TNG too much for not having as much humor as I'd like, because it does really shine with its own great episodes and I do admire some of the more dry humor they attempted in the last two seasons such as Data giving Worf his cat to take care of in "Phantasms".
This is why I rank DS9 the best of all the spin-offs because that one wasn't afraid to get into the kind of comedic romps that TOS would have. I think TNG could have used more of that, though I understand Berman was very afraid of trying to do that because of earlier attempts like "The Naked Now" falling flat on its face. I don't put down TNG too much for not having as much humor as I'd like, because it does really shine with its own great episodes and I do admire some of the more dry humor they attempted in the last two seasons such as Data giving Worf his cat to take care of in "Phantasms".
Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...
TNG didn't take itself TOO seriously, but it's true that (with the exception of "The Naked Now") it never really got into the realm of "campy."
You're forgetting that TNG had quite a few of these over the years, they were just a lot better organized and mixed with serious content more fluidly. Take, for example, all of the Q episodes, all of the Luwaxana episodes, Vash, Picard talking down to the Sheliak, and the high tech shenanigans of Carmen Sandiego.
TNG didn't take itself TOO seriously, but it's true that (with the exception of "The Naked Now") it never really got into the realm of "campy."
Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...
This is really the only thing I can disagree with you about. I HATED Chekov in the TOS series, he was better in the movies though. Nu Chekov is better, but the character is supposed to be the most junior officer, so in order to wedge him in they had to make him this Doogie Hauser/Wesley Crusher genius boy. I actually would have preferred that they kept him out of the first movie.
Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...
I'm not denying that they did throughout the whole deal, just that they didn't seem to embrace it as much as later seasons. You can tell they started to really loosen up with stuff like "A Fistful of Datas". Maybe I'm just thinking more of the certain touch that Moore, Braga, Menosky, Shankar brought, where it was quirky humor with a mix of surrealism. Other quirky stuff like Braga's "Punish Riker" thing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhgTKMA3szQ
EDIT: I do love "Devil's Due", feels like classic TOS (for obvious reasons).
I'm not denying that they did throughout the whole deal, just that they didn't seem to embrace it as much as later seasons. You can tell they started to really loosen up with stuff like "A Fistful of Datas". Maybe I'm just thinking more of the certain touch that Moore, Braga, Menosky, Shankar brought, where it was quirky humor with a mix of surrealism. Other quirky stuff like Braga's "Punish Riker" thing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhgTKMA3szQ
EDIT: I do love "Devil's Due", feels like classic TOS (for obvious reasons).
Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...
Star Trek is and always has been like that hole-in-the-wall, back alley diner where you walk in to vinyl booths with generic looking utensils, cheap plastic-dinnerware, those red and yellow ketchup and mustard squirt bottles, and salt and pepper shakers made out of baseball bobble heads were, when they serve you your food, it turns out to be the best God damned meal you've ever eaten.
Of course Star Trek is campy. It's grown men in pajamas shooting plastic ray guns at other grown men with rubber thingys on their heads.
Don't confuse content with packaging.
Star Trek is and always has been like that hole-in-the-wall, back alley diner where you walk in to vinyl booths with generic looking utensils, cheap plastic-dinnerware, those red and yellow ketchup and mustard squirt bottles, and salt and pepper shakers made out of baseball bobble heads were, when they serve you your food, it turns out to be the best God damned meal you've ever eaten.
Of course Star Trek is campy. It's grown men in pajamas shooting plastic ray guns at other grown men with rubber thingys on their heads.
Don't confuse content with packaging.
Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...
All Star Trek has been campy. DS9 maybe had the least camp. TOS was camp incarnate. I guess that's why I like TNG on upwards because it's tolerable (although sometimes it's not) but Star Trek was a slightly more serious Star Wars.
All Star Trek has been campy. DS9 maybe had the least camp. TOS was camp incarnate. I guess that's why I like TNG on upwards because it's tolerable (although sometimes it's not) but Star Trek was a slightly more serious Star Wars.
Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...
QFT (IE sums up how I feel regarding the Abram's films, TOS and TNG. And I'm an old TOS fan who LOVES TOS (#1) and was watching first run episodes since 1969.)
QFT (IE sums up how I feel regarding the Abram's films, TOS and TNG. And I'm an old TOS fan who LOVES TOS (#1) and was watching first run episodes since 1969.)
Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...
You know, to get a little serious for a sec, this is really not true*. Star Trek in fact had a very distinct feel from Star Wars for most of its run until (arguably, anyway) the advent of Abramstrek. Its episodes were written by a wide variety of SF writers who had very different sensibilities from "Doc" Smith whose Lensmen provided the template for the Star Wars universe. Star Wars was very much straight-ahead pulp fantasy; Star Trek was designed not to be straight-ahead anything, more like an SF framework for telling a wide variety of stories, and it retained something of that in most of its incarnations (even the weakest of them).
Nostalgic fans are given to over-selling how philosophically "deep" Trek used to be, but they're not wrong that it was once a readily distinguishable franchise.
(* At least - it's not true of the televised and movie product. The novelized and comic book output of the two franchises may have gotten closer or overlapped more.)
You know, to get a little serious for a sec, this is really not true*. Star Trek in fact had a very distinct feel from Star Wars for most of its run until (arguably, anyway) the advent of Abramstrek. Its episodes were written by a wide variety of SF writers who had very different sensibilities from "Doc" Smith whose Lensmen provided the template for the Star Wars universe. Star Wars was very much straight-ahead pulp fantasy; Star Trek was designed not to be straight-ahead anything, more like an SF framework for telling a wide variety of stories, and it retained something of that in most of its incarnations (even the weakest of them).
Nostalgic fans are given to over-selling how philosophically "deep" Trek used to be, but they're not wrong that it was once a readily distinguishable franchise.
(* At least - it's not true of the televised and movie product. The novelized and comic book output of the two franchises may have gotten closer or overlapped more.)
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