I don't know. Spock seems odd throughout the movie. Like when he starts laughing creepily after they retrieved him after his mind-meld with V'Ger. He was a lot different and much more human in TWOK or even after he was brought back in further movies. No, seriously there was something really odd about Spock in this movie like he was having a nervous breakdown or something. Perhaps the failed colonoscopy affected him deeply and it took till the next movie for him to recover.
most disappointing Trek movie?
- Thread starter Khan 2.0
- Start date
I don't know. Spock seems odd throughout the movie. Like when he starts laughing creepily after they retrieved him after his mind-meld with V'Ger. He was a lot different and much more human in TWOK or even after he was brought back in further movies. No, seriously there was something really odd about Spock in this movie like he was having a nervous breakdown or something. Perhaps the failed colonoscopy affected him deeply and it took till the next movie for him to recover.
That was my impression that the Kohlinar had an deep impact on him, as well as the perceived failure in not completing it. So, he is looking for answers. When Spock talks about V'Ger and its struggles there is a hint that Spock is speaking about himself as well. That his reunion with Kirk and McCoy was what Spock needed to resolve his own conflict.
That was one element that I think might be a carry over form TMP to TWOK. While TWOK mostly ignored TMP (though I wouldn't say contradicted it--they can still exist in the same continuity) there were a few bits and pieces I thought could tie them together.
But one thing Spock learned from his encounter with V'Ger was that there was more to life than logic and pure knowledge. He learned, in essence, that human emotions, his human half, is part of who he is. And in TWOK he seems more at peace with himself as a result.
I don't know if that was intentional, though it's possible Nimoy, playing the part, took some of that away from TMP and adjusted his role accordingly. It's not something overt. He's not an emotional being or anything. He just seems more at peace with his two halves.
When you watch Spock in TMP, then in TWOK, it's one thing that actually feels natural between the two, his growth as a person basically.
He came aboard the ship in TMP aloof, stoic and stiff. By movies end you already see a change, which is picked up on in TWOK.
I don't know. I've watched many dubbed movies. Usually, they do an excellent job of making it seem natural. We have many decades of experience in that domain and there are professional actors who are very good at saying the words with the right tone while following precisely the lip motion.
A ton of the dialogue on the bridge had to be re-dubbed because of the noise of the small projectors all over that were used for displaying console graphics. By TWOK, they had been transferred to video monitors.
I believe it's practically standard procedure to redub all movies. Because of the random noises that can be heard during filmings like someone walking off-camera or someone coughing, someone shouting next room...etc... Filming stages are unpredictable. Plus the sound is not top quality.
Insurrection for me. Should have been a completely different script. At least Frakes got to direct again.
This is predictable, but, 5. I am in two minds about 11-13. 7 & 9 I rather like. I used to dislike 4 a lot, but it has improved with re-acquaintance.
First Contact is as good as ST 2 & 3. I wish TMP had beeb half an hour longer.
ST6 has some confusing moments, but it is a return to form after ST5. INS & NEM are at least entertaining.
First Contact is as good as ST 2 & 3. I wish TMP had beeb half an hour longer.
ST6 has some confusing moments, but it is a return to form after ST5. INS & NEM are at least entertaining.
Last edited:
So, having just gotten the 4K release of the first four movies, I eagerly watched them in sequence. I sat through the first three films, drinking in the amazing new prints and absorbing each film. I spooled up The Voyage Home and as soon as the Bird of Prey reached the 20th century, I lost interest. Off it went.
A little while back, when TVH was released by Fathom events, I bought a ticket. I had to cancel when a hurricane was going to hit that night. I felt no remorse whatsoever.
So my answer to this question hasn't changed.
A little while back, when TVH was released by Fathom events, I bought a ticket. I had to cancel when a hurricane was going to hit that night. I felt no remorse whatsoever.
So my answer to this question hasn't changed.
I just watched my 4k copy last night. There are some truly undeniable great moments in the film, and I smiled and had a good time watching it for sure. But, it is no doubt my least favorite of the TOS films.
For me, it's a toss-up.
So in the context of the time, at the time, going into a movie with expectations: GEN or STFC would get my vote for ending up being most disappointing. GEN was good overall, but I was itching to see what its successor might do, especially with how Q trolled the audience via Picard as to what awaits in ATG... GEN stumbled but still sold that expectation... with that said, STFC was a fairly massive disappointment. Generic faff that was coasting, feeling like a cast reunion party where they forgot about the fans. Even GEN felt more special, and not trying to be a generic action flick bypassing the rules it set up for itself in the process as flagrantly... yeah, STFC should be getting my vote for this.
So in the context of the time, at the time, regardless of any possible expectations - after seeing the movie: NEM gets my vote. All the writers involved and new names in the movie's production seemed like a good idea: Actors who know their characters contributing to the script to help out the other writers, plus some fresh blood to put the thing together... and to top it all off, STXI was already having ideas bandied about despite it all... but by then, had it gotten made, I probably wouldn't have seen it...
So in the context of right here and right now, after rewatching most of the movies again: TFF, since - like TMP - it shares a plot idea, but TMP did it much better in its own ways.
Other ruminations from decades' past:
I remember summer camp where the chatter among the kids was that Kirk would get a DeLorean or TARDIS and be going back in time. Nothing was said about the whales or the overly-long sitcom feel that the movie engendered. "Fish out of water" is a trope I tend to enjoy, which is the main reason this film worked for me at all. It was good, but even back then I preferred TSFS. Comedy's a weird thing at times...
It was after TVH that gave me a sense of trepidation for every upcoming movie and how disappointed I might be as a result. (TFF was leaving me fairly flat, not just because they tried to use "fish out of water" outside any context in which said trope can even begin to work in, but TUC was so good I saw it thrice - despite some moments that didn't quite work at the time, or moments that have not aged well (Uhura and Chekov once again being reduced to the butt of jokes a la TFF)...) Granted, I also failed to see the logic of kids wandering around school wearing shirts reading the then-current year "1986" in a garish neon color scheme, as if everyone around them was lacking mental coherence they didn't know what the year was and all while wearing sunglasses indoors too... unless society took a collective time travel trip, which might explain a lot...
INS was okay, but Roger Ebert said it best about how it reused a plot point from FC, which was using it as a joke (though I don't recall him saying TSFS used the same "turning against the establishment" trope and, IMFO, TSFS does this trope infinitely better than anything the TNG troupe kept stumbling over...)
But after 4 years, I was hyped for NEM. A movie where, in the theater, which was over half full at the time, the only time people cheered was when the word "Kirk" was uttered. That's bad. A movie chock full of mostly go-nowhere ideas didn't help. Trek was toast by then.
TMP I never saw in the theater. Whether or not I would have liked it, or understood it, or appreciated it... I would do so far more now, right down to Roddenberry's bizarre ideas for uniforms that were right out of some form of kink my ex would doubtlessly partake in for hours on end.
TWOK I wouldn't have been allowed to see in the theater, and it's remarkable it didn't get rated "R". It's also annoying they reuse footage from TMP, even though Kirk's shuttlepod should have gone to torpedo bay 1's pod hatch instead of in the engineering hull's area (they didn't swap "TORP BAY 2" for "TORP BAY 1" either between the time Khan fries that part of the ship, but if that's port side then why was it "2" to begin with? Forget Chekov being recognized by Khan, that port hole is important!!!
TSFS was a blast, and in a day and age of no home video, the recaps from the previous movie were utterly awesome (ditto for TVH in that regard). Granted, nowadays it's either filler or begging the question of how fancy the recordering equipment was to capture all that detail, but this was another era - another time and place, at the cusp of the revolution of movies sold on video for re-viewing, personal libraries, nitpicking every little silly detail... wait, I just did that a paragraph ago... drat... but the nitpicks aside, TSFS bucks the nonsense claim of "only the even-numbered movies were good". TSFS has flaws, but is still more than the sum of its parts. Something the odd-numbered TOS movies can't quite accomplish, with TMP coming close.
ST09 I had low expectations for - it's a reboot and few have won me over. It was made by a guy who later said he hated the show. Which is okay if they hate the show, but at least try and make it better and embrace it -- not just cut and paste plot points from all the old shows, without any innovation and coast on superficial stereotyping for the characters. It's amazing that I gave a chance to the sequel...
...STID I had low expectations for thanks to 09's cashing in on hollow, unsatisfying nostalgia (like junk food or my ex in movie form), but Khan wasn't even needed for this movie to be spectacular. Keep the original John Harrison without the "Khan" nostalgiabate stuff jackhammered in, teaming up with Admiral Robocopguy for the double double-cross, and it's still a winner. So it did end up being better than what I was thinking going in.
STB was anything but disappointing, but the Trek movie phenomenon started to fizzle in 1994 and never rebounded.
So in the context of the time, at the time, going into a movie with expectations: GEN or STFC would get my vote for ending up being most disappointing. GEN was good overall, but I was itching to see what its successor might do, especially with how Q trolled the audience via Picard as to what awaits in ATG... GEN stumbled but still sold that expectation... with that said, STFC was a fairly massive disappointment. Generic faff that was coasting, feeling like a cast reunion party where they forgot about the fans. Even GEN felt more special, and not trying to be a generic action flick bypassing the rules it set up for itself in the process as flagrantly... yeah, STFC should be getting my vote for this.
So in the context of the time, at the time, regardless of any possible expectations - after seeing the movie: NEM gets my vote. All the writers involved and new names in the movie's production seemed like a good idea: Actors who know their characters contributing to the script to help out the other writers, plus some fresh blood to put the thing together... and to top it all off, STXI was already having ideas bandied about despite it all... but by then, had it gotten made, I probably wouldn't have seen it...
So in the context of right here and right now, after rewatching most of the movies again: TFF, since - like TMP - it shares a plot idea, but TMP did it much better in its own ways.
Other ruminations from decades' past:
I remember summer camp where the chatter among the kids was that Kirk would get a DeLorean or TARDIS and be going back in time. Nothing was said about the whales or the overly-long sitcom feel that the movie engendered. "Fish out of water" is a trope I tend to enjoy, which is the main reason this film worked for me at all. It was good, but even back then I preferred TSFS. Comedy's a weird thing at times...
It was after TVH that gave me a sense of trepidation for every upcoming movie and how disappointed I might be as a result. (TFF was leaving me fairly flat, not just because they tried to use "fish out of water" outside any context in which said trope can even begin to work in, but TUC was so good I saw it thrice - despite some moments that didn't quite work at the time, or moments that have not aged well (Uhura and Chekov once again being reduced to the butt of jokes a la TFF)...) Granted, I also failed to see the logic of kids wandering around school wearing shirts reading the then-current year "1986" in a garish neon color scheme, as if everyone around them was lacking mental coherence they didn't know what the year was and all while wearing sunglasses indoors too... unless society took a collective time travel trip, which might explain a lot...
INS was okay, but Roger Ebert said it best about how it reused a plot point from FC, which was using it as a joke (though I don't recall him saying TSFS used the same "turning against the establishment" trope and, IMFO, TSFS does this trope infinitely better than anything the TNG troupe kept stumbling over...)
But after 4 years, I was hyped for NEM. A movie where, in the theater, which was over half full at the time, the only time people cheered was when the word "Kirk" was uttered. That's bad. A movie chock full of mostly go-nowhere ideas didn't help. Trek was toast by then.
TMP I never saw in the theater. Whether or not I would have liked it, or understood it, or appreciated it... I would do so far more now, right down to Roddenberry's bizarre ideas for uniforms that were right out of some form of kink my ex would doubtlessly partake in for hours on end.
TWOK I wouldn't have been allowed to see in the theater, and it's remarkable it didn't get rated "R". It's also annoying they reuse footage from TMP, even though Kirk's shuttlepod should have gone to torpedo bay 1's pod hatch instead of in the engineering hull's area (they didn't swap "TORP BAY 2" for "TORP BAY 1" either between the time Khan fries that part of the ship, but if that's port side then why was it "2" to begin with? Forget Chekov being recognized by Khan, that port hole is important!!!
TSFS was a blast, and in a day and age of no home video, the recaps from the previous movie were utterly awesome (ditto for TVH in that regard). Granted, nowadays it's either filler or begging the question of how fancy the recordering equipment was to capture all that detail, but this was another era - another time and place, at the cusp of the revolution of movies sold on video for re-viewing, personal libraries, nitpicking every little silly detail... wait, I just did that a paragraph ago... drat... but the nitpicks aside, TSFS bucks the nonsense claim of "only the even-numbered movies were good". TSFS has flaws, but is still more than the sum of its parts. Something the odd-numbered TOS movies can't quite accomplish, with TMP coming close.
ST09 I had low expectations for - it's a reboot and few have won me over. It was made by a guy who later said he hated the show. Which is okay if they hate the show, but at least try and make it better and embrace it -- not just cut and paste plot points from all the old shows, without any innovation and coast on superficial stereotyping for the characters. It's amazing that I gave a chance to the sequel...
...STID I had low expectations for thanks to 09's cashing in on hollow, unsatisfying nostalgia (like junk food or my ex in movie form), but Khan wasn't even needed for this movie to be spectacular. Keep the original John Harrison without the "Khan" nostalgiabate stuff jackhammered in, teaming up with Admiral Robocopguy for the double double-cross, and it's still a winner. So it did end up being better than what I was thinking going in.
STB was anything but disappointing, but the Trek movie phenomenon started to fizzle in 1994 and never rebounded.
Generations.
This is without a doubt the most directionless and convoluted movie of the bunch. You've got two TV writers who have never written for a film before being tasked with writing a movie based almost entirely on mandates. Outside of the film's more blatant problems with plot holes and killing off science fiction icons in terrible ways, the writing doesn't even realize it's own potential. For example, take these moments with Picard when it comes to Klingons.
This is without a doubt the most directionless and convoluted movie of the bunch. You've got two TV writers who have never written for a film before being tasked with writing a movie based almost entirely on mandates. Outside of the film's more blatant problems with plot holes and killing off science fiction icons in terrible ways, the writing doesn't even realize it's own potential. For example, take these moments with Picard when it comes to Klingons.
Picard: If there's one thing I've learned over the years, it's to never underestimate a Klingon.
*Later when pursuing the Klingon sisters Lursa and B'etor in their cloaked Bird-of-prey*
Riker: Maybe they're not out there.
Picard: Maybe they're just trying to decide whether a twenty year-old Klingon Bird-of-Prey can be a match for the Federation flagship.
Result: Enterprise-D is destroyed
Star Trek II made Captain Kirk's overconfidence part of the overall story and an obstacle that he had to deal with. Picard makes a mistake by not following his own career experience he boasts about, pays for it and the film does nothing for it.*Later when pursuing the Klingon sisters Lursa and B'etor in their cloaked Bird-of-prey*
Riker: Maybe they're not out there.
Picard: Maybe they're just trying to decide whether a twenty year-old Klingon Bird-of-Prey can be a match for the Federation flagship.
Result: Enterprise-D is destroyed
To make matters worse, in "The Mind's Eye", IIRC, Data basically randomly detects the signals being used to control Geordi. Yet here, in a case where the E-D is transmitting to a known hostile vessel, apparently nobody has any idea it's going on.
Trek forgetting what's come before is part of its DNA. If it were beholden to what has come before it would never do anything new. Trek fans should just accept that and move on.
Generations is fine until they ride into the NEXUS, then it just falls off a bridge. MMV
Generations is fine until they ride into the NEXUS, then it just falls off a bridge. MMV
Last edited:
That is a contradicting statement. The reason why audiences become fans of a franchise in the first place is because they become beholden it! You're essentially chastising Star Trek fans for liking Star Trek.
And this isn't even a case of Star Trek Generations forgetting about what happened in an episode of The Next Generation (Although there is a lot of that going on anyways). Picard said that he's learned to never underestimate a Klingon, yet he underestimates them later on and gets his whole ship destroyed as a result. All of these points happen within the same story. So not only are you telling Trekkies to not take past Star Trek stories seriously, you're telling them not to take the stories they're experiencing NOW seriously!
And the biggest irony with your 'beholden' statement is what you say later. "Generations is fine until they ride into the NEXUS" . Before Picard even arrives into the nexus, a huge portion of TNG's storyline in Generations is beholden to what has come before. Picard's immediate family who were introduced in TNG's Season 4 episode 'Family' are brought up. The Emotion Chip from 'Brothers' that Data got back from Lore in 'The Descent Part II' plays a huge role for his character. Lursa and B'etor are still trying to conquer the Klingon Empire from their multiple storylines from TNG and DS9. These all stem from multiple story arcs that occurred across almost the entirety of TNG's run. That's a lot of material from past episodes that new audiences will have no real understanding of unless they've watched TNG in it's entirety. You can see why I'm a little confused when you say that the part of the film that is 'beholden' to Star Trek is when the film is fine, but the part where Star Trek does something a bit new is where it all falls apart.
There's a different between liking it and expecting future installments to be beholden to every detail. Not saying Generations is great, because it tries to balance the two and fails utterly.
I have lived Kirk's speech to Picard in that film, paraphrased. Replace "duty and honor" with "Teh Canon!", and that's me.
I used to whine about things they screwed up too. It kept me awake at times! But then I learned a lesson from McCoy in STV. Here are McCoy's words from that film paraphrased into the lesson:
It's a show you green blooded Vulcan. The Canon isn't important. What is important is you have a good time watching!
But yeah, every fan has to learn that lesson in their own time and continue a happy camper,
or not, and become a bitter energy vampire whining about things they cannot control.
When Trek gets it right, rejoice and be glad! When they get it wrong, forget it and move on. You'll be a more happy fan that way. YMMV
Good luck, peace, and long life.
I used to whine about things they screwed up too. It kept me awake at times! But then I learned a lesson from McCoy in STV. Here are McCoy's words from that film paraphrased into the lesson:
It's a show you green blooded Vulcan. The Canon isn't important. What is important is you have a good time watching!
But yeah, every fan has to learn that lesson in their own time and continue a happy camper,
or not, and become a bitter energy vampire whining about things they cannot control.When Trek gets it right, rejoice and be glad! When they get it wrong, forget it and move on. You'll be a more happy fan that way. YMMV
Good luck, peace, and long life.